Full Count Denim Thread

[julian-wolf]

3 minutes ago, AlientoyWorkmachine said:

I think it's one thing to rip off of Levi's - as that's what industry is built on - but another to copy such a specific little detail that only one other manufacturer is using

For whatever it’s worth (and generally to add to the conversation), weren’t the arcs that Iron Heart used for their old Free Bees line also very similar to those used by Fullcount? I don’t think this situation is as unique as it’s being made out to be—the threat of legal action is all that sets it apart

[LazyS]

Every once and a while I come across roebucks with double arcs on Ebay

[AlientoyWorkmachine]

Does anyone know for certain that no other methods of reconciliation were attempted? I get that the legal aspect sets it apart, but there are situations where it's the only avenue left. Not that I love it, but I've been in that situation myself. It's not fun, but sometimes it's the only way to get a response. Many/most situations do not warrant it, but they can also be made to warrant it. 

Lots of grey area here - i.e. knowing what is in good faith or bad faith etc. I'm not sure those things are possible to know, especially without having knowledge of any communications btwn them. Beyond any more information about what led up to it being disclosed I'm just beyond making any judgment on it all. Too much benefit of doubt to give to both parties. 

[MJF9]

So there we have it... it turns out it was all Ed's fault

He sailed into the eye of a perfect storm...

[Broark]

There's likely a lot of grey area and conversations that none of us (outside of maybe Volvo) were privy to.
As a participant it left a bad taste in my mouth. I actually cut the cinch off before sending them back and kept it as a keepsake.
It just seems ironic to threaten legal action against someone in the same vein as Levi's did to them 10-15 years ago. We've truly come full circle!
For me it's easy as there are plenty of other fish in the sea. FC's denim is nice and I'm sure the current product is still good, I enjoyed wearing the 1101s I owned.

[istewi]

Maybe the Osaka 5 are just more friendy with one another, but a certain 2nd hand series has some familiar arcs. 

[bartlebyyphonics]

for me one defining feature is that tcb only made the arc design public at point of the competition going live; iirc no pairs were sold to the forum with the incentive that they would have those specific arc additions. instead they were a bit of an afterthought (made without enough thought as discussed) for which a price was paid (for all sides it would seem).

as to both @julian-wolf (re: ironheart free bees - image from ironheart forum sales thread c.2018 below) and @istewi (re; that pair above) it would seem very much to me, and I may be very much mistaken, that it was about establishing/retaining pecking order and the like... but, again, that is very much my own personal conjecture...

2 hours ago, MJF9 said:

So there we have it... it turns out it was all Ed's fault

He sailed into the eye of a perfect storm...

and yes; a case, perhaps, of a (now seemingly reformed) habit of pressing 'send' without thinking through consequences ... 

[JohnM]

Apart from this arc business, we all now know who the owl of Minerva is and I’m grateful for that. Why I love this group.  

[Geeman]

5 hours ago, Maynard Friedman said:

I heard that Marks & Spencer, who have been making plain back pocket jeans for years are now going to sue Full Count for copying their design, or lack thereof.

Did @Double 0 Soul grass them up?

Edited December 9, 2022 by Geeman

[MJF9]

Reformed or curtailed maybe??? Are you still picking up Ed?

Clearly derailing the FC thread here... but as I looked up the TCB 20s contest thread again, seeing lots of old names, I did wonder where have they all gone?

[Geeman]

1 hour ago, bartlebyyphonics said:

for me one defining feature is that tcb only made the arc design public at point of the competition going live; iirc no pairs were sold to the forum with the incentive that they would have those specific arc additions. instead they were a bit of an afterthought (made without enough thought as discussed) for which a price was paid (for all sides it would seem).

as to both @julian-wolf (re: ironheart free bees - image from ironheart forum sales thread c.2018 below) and @istewi (re; that pair above) it would seem very much to me, and I may be very much mistaken, that it was about establishing/retaining pecking order and the like... but, again, that is very much my own personal conjecture...

and yes; a case, perhaps, of a (now seemingly reformed) habit of pressing 'send' without thinking through consequences ... 

Come on though, anyone looking at this photo wouldn't think it's a clever attempt to get round the Levi lawsuit and meant to be unpicked.... they'd think it was or was meant to look like FC 

You can see why Miki San was pissed by it.

Also from reading the linked article,  I think their arcs  & tab had gone past being a repro/homage thing and were just FCs own brand ID (although not trying to deny the influence). Even Miki san said that once trademarked he realised its wasn't the definition of the brand , it was his goal to produce the perfect Jean?

I certainly didn't buy FC as an attempt to capture some Levi nostalgia 

Perhaps add that TCB have also done Wrangler, Lee, Carhart repro attempt that sails very close to the original and this time they picked the wrong influence or even that Inoue opinion on what's acceptable repro pickings and Miki's are different.....

Edited December 9, 2022 by Geeman

[bartlebyyphonics]

16 minutes ago, Geeman said:

Come on though, anyone looking at this photo wouldn't think it's a clever attempt to get round the Levi lawsuit and meant to be unpicked.... they'd think it was or was meant to look like FC 

fwiw that pic isn't a tcb, it is iron heart ... [also, for the nerds gathered here among us; the 20s never had a tab neither and were distinguished by exposed rivets ... ]

Edited December 9, 2022 by bartlebyyphonics

[julian-wolf]

21 minutes ago, Geeman said:

Come on though, anyone looking at this photo wouldn't think it's a clever attempt to get round the Levi lawsuit and meant to be unpicked.... they'd think it was or was meant to look like FC 

 You can see why Miki San was pissed by it.

Exactly—so why go after TCB, who only used this style of design for a single limited release, and not Iron Heart, who used the design you’re referring to for years worth of standard releases?

[Geeman]

24 minutes ago, bartlebyyphonics said:

fwiw that pic isn't a tcb, it is iron heart ... [also, for the nerds gathered here among us; the 20s never had a tab neither and were distinguished by exposed rivets ... ]

Not a big repro guy or followed the TCB contest or knew what era the contest pair were based on so that was a miss on my part!

[bartlebyyphonics]

2 minutes ago, julian-wolf said:

Exactly—so why go after TCB, who only used this style of design for a single limited release, and not Iron Heart, who used the design you’re referring to for years worth of standard releases?

if I was to mull it over, and conjecture wildly in full conspiracy mode, was it is an opportunity for punishment over cotton choices for their 50's... fc wants to own Zimbabwean cotton handfeel? [are there other makers who cross over in this aspect, other than momotaro?]

[beautiful_FrEaK]

After some detours, this pair from sufu member @Bill_e_jean landed at my place as well. Both purchases weren't planned, they kinda happened 

Also a size 34

 

Edited December 12, 2022 by beautiful_FrEaK

[Talan]

46 minutes ago, beautiful_FrEaK said:

After some detours, this pair from sufu member @Bill_e_jean landed at my place as well. Both purchases weren't planned, they kinda happened 

Also a size 34

 

Glad you returned back to FC... 

[edwardlj]

anyone bought the s0105xx wwii 30th anniversary? 

[beautiful_FrEaK]

On 12/8/2022 at 5:55 PM, JohnM said:

Will be interesting to see measurements of these when they come out.

If you check out my link, there are measurements posted. But yes, they can surely differ to the actual ones

[NilsLW]

Surprised, isn't the 0105 labeled as a wide straight? Looks more like a true straight to me. Amazing fit nonetheless, they look really really good on you.

[edwardlj]

6 hours ago, NilsLW said:

Surprised, isn't the 0105 labeled as a wide straight? Looks more like a true straight to me. Amazing fit nonetheless, they look really really good on you.

the old model is slimmer than the new one. 

[beautiful_FrEaK]

On 12/12/2022 at 12:32 PM, edwardlj said:

anyone bought the s0105xx wwii 30th anniversary? 

I  think @CSL did

[CSL]

12 hours ago, beautiful_FrEaK said:

I  think @CSL did

I did, but not the expensive pair with the arcs.

https://standardandstrange.com/collections/fullcount/products/s0105xx-wwii-model-14-4-oz-denim

[oomslokop]

11 year old 1108

 

[edwardlj]

On 12/15/2022 at 3:42 AM, CSL said:

I did, but not the expensive pair with the arcs.

https://standardandstrange.com/collections/fullcount/products/s0105xx-wwii-model-14-4-oz-denim

yes，this pair.

[elmcitizen]

I've been considering the 1110W as they seem the closest in measurements to my ancient Self Edge Sugar Cane Summer Okis that I have been wearing and repairing forever.  Being a bigger guy that needs some room in the thigh but still wants a hem at about 8" these seem my best option. 

[Jared_Lee]

On 12/8/2022 at 4:15 PM, aho said:

I still enjoy the product, mostly down to the standard denim itself, which is probably my favorite manufactured standard fabric of any of the big names for its soft hand and comfort, and of course, those FADES. I recall it was Tsujita-san's love for how soft broken in/super worn vintage Levis felt when he was thrifting back in the 80's etc. that led to this brand MO. 

This. I recently started wearing a pair of the 13.75oz wide 0105 (no tab, no arcs) and it's the best fabric in the game (I also own a very well-worn pair of original 0105s that I bought in 2013). Next to the Black Sign BS Straight and BS Wide, it's also the best fit in the game if you're looking for wide legs, hip flare and perfect drape. It's the drape that BS lacks because their fabric just isn't on par with the FC 13.75oz. The BS has a better shaped top block if you're not looking for anti-fit with hip flare. Much more flattering butts in the BS fits. Of course those are all absolute statements of my preference in these things. It's all subjective. Except for the butts. Butts objectively look better in Black Sign jeans.

[JDelage]

I've never owned FC. What are the pro's and con's of the "heavy ounce" vs regular denim? They seem quite close in weight actually, the "heavy ounce" being quite reasonable at 15.5oz...?

[Geeman]

I've only owned the xx. Lovely denim, really soft when broken in. 

[Hopethisoneisnttaken]

On 12/9/2022 at 8:44 PM, bartlebyyphonics said:

if I was to mull it over, and conjecture wildly in full conspiracy mode, was it is an opportunity for punishment over cotton choices for their 50's... fc wants to own Zimbabwean cotton handfeel? [are there other makers who cross over in this aspect, other than momotaro?]

Iirc SC uses it quite a lot and Stevenson also (strictly for denim products though as far as I know)