Denim Blunders, Reflections and General Nonsense.

[MJF9]

I wonder which fashion capital Sheffield's Minister for Tourism will pick Gee

[Double 0 Soul]

I'm hearing good things about Chesterfield..

[Double 0 Soul]

..also, this made me laugh recently

 

[Duke Mantee]

4 minutes ago, Double 0 Soul said:

I'm hearing good things about Chesterfield..

Somewhere to lounge about

[Maynard Friedman]

8 minutes ago, Duke Mantee said:

Somewhere to lounge about

Inspired

[pudaspriest]

On 1/15/2024 at 11:32 AM, shredwin_206 said:

Also where’s some of the other guys who used to post a lot? 
@Cucoo, @Max Power, @pudaspriest, and @volvo240thebest 

I am still here, log on pretty regularly to see what is going on. Just haven't posted in quite a while.  

[ATWM]

8 hours ago, Cold Summer said:

Today, it's all detached and based entirely on personal whim and this interesting cultural pressure to manufacture your own identity out of thin air.

Eh - we're all part of a culture (and more) inherently. (see Althusser!) The culture is just different and transcends physical boundaries because of the internet. I think what we're lamenting here is essentially what happens when the world is more connected. There are no whims out of thin air - people are acculturated from the day they are born. None of us on sufu are different, really! I mean - to the outside world we have the wardrobe diversity of these coffee shops - each with their own little local flair if you travel enough. 

As for the misremembered 90's thing - our generation did the same shit (in the 90's) of the 60's and 70's. I think we should all look at each other a little more generously. I'm around these kids quite often now and they're trying to make sense of a more fucked up landscape than I was - if they like how a Sublime shirt looks who am I to judge. I'm not sure any of them are trying to look like Daria, Kurt, or Claire Daines. They're just taking stuff they like and mashing it with other stuff, so of course it will be a bit different. Any time we cringe at an LFO or Abercrombie resurgence someone else cringes at a denim tuxedo from any time period. I mean, I know that one denim tux is totally, wildly different from another but to the general landscape there's really no difference between some Levi's outlet cheap labor tux and the finest '46 collectible set Sugar Cane wants to make. 

As I've said before - even with the problems, I'd no more live in any time other than right now. Last I checked here in the U.S., nearly 500 of every 1000 children born died before the age of 5 two centuries ago. To that end, every boring ass brick and window coffee shop reliably has much better coffee than I could get almost anywhere fifteen years ago. Shit was brutal. Do I wish they incorporated more local idiosyncrasies? Do I miss being able to find weird shit? Sure, there are some cultural and lifestyle elements that current western culture has jettisoned and we are worse off for, and we should work hard to recognize and restore them - but there was never a better time in any comprehensive or meaningful way. And at least where I live, there's still plenty of charming and weird shit around but more importantly most kids have a better than 50% chance of getting past kindergarten. On top of that I have better food and coffee more easily available to me than my parents could have dreamed of. Sure, the decor isn't so good. I do enjoy thinking about a world that was not designed to be photographed for Instagram, but like also, a lot of people love that stuff. 

Sorry if I'm a little blunt, there are weird crossovers between the denim world (which obviously I have affinity for) and a sort nostalgic... a romanticizing of a different life - that has just never in any way I've ever seen really answered the core question of why now isn't a better time to be alive strictly based off of the infant mortality rate alone. I even checked in with my old book friend Mr. Kingsnorth (who I see converted), and while I always appreciate his insight doesn't seem to be answering this now either. (I'll probably forever prefer his pre conversion writings, but hey maybe not, I will keep an open mind). I'm not some sort of techno futurist by any stretch, there is much about a richer life that I perceive as being more accessible in past Western culture, or perhaps present other cultures but as a whole, I think it's sort of folly to think too fondly to the times before. At best, we simply miss what is good and valuable about being here, now.

Should I just piss off to tech wear now? 😃 

[Cold Summer]

My take on the SuFu style is a little different - we're a subculture (or maybe several!) I like subcultures. I think a lot of them are weird and I'm not interested, while others I find compelling. Either way, I think it's good that they're around. Especially in light of the sort of global monoculture I think a lot of us, on the last couple pages, have been critiquing from a couple different angles. Subcultures at their best push back and can sort of help reform and counterbalance the main culture, even if some degree of friction is inevitable.

My ribbing at the neo-90s aesthetic is a little more lighthearted (see my "Old-man-yelling-at-cloud" preface!) I guess what strikes me is a bit inauthentic about it, is that the kids doing it seem very far detached from it, themselves, and it can come across as being based on purely arbitrary whims. For myself, Gen Y dude born in the 80s, like most of my peers I have a great fondness for the sounds, looks, and general vibes of the 80s. But though the decade ended while I was still in diapers, its direct influence loomed large because I was exposed to a massive amount of 80s media, especially music and movies, during my childhood. So the 80s were actually an integral part of my most impressionable time, as is the case for a lot of people around my age. So the nostalgia of people ten years too young to have firsthand experience doesn't seem strange at all.

On the other hand, the Gen Z kids were born after 9/11, and it doesn't seem like the 90s stuff, like grunge, really persisted the way the 80s did. It's weird when I see a high schooler wearing a hoodie emblazoned with Nicktoons characters on it. I'm thinking, have you ever even watched any of those shows...? They were kind of way before your time. And that sort of thing. It's less like my generation getting all rosy-eyed about the 80s, and more like if everyone in my class in 2005 was obsessed with disco and 70s TV shows. There's plenty of stuff I like from the 90s, and I'm not gatekeeping telling Zoomer kids not to listen to Nirvana, or whatever. It just feels to me like the way this all arose was driven by internet algorithms and not the sort of grassroots way that subcultures used to be born. It's more like, I feel bad for them because it seems like they're being exploited, and looks and aesthetics are just one aspect of it. Could be wrong, but that's my take.

And it's certainly true there are plenty of things better about living now than in the past, and various harsh or brutal things about earlier times we can tend to gloss over or romanticize @AlientoyWorkmachine, so I'm with you there, that we should try to take a somewhat balanced view. We see pictures of men in cool rugged clothing in the 30s and think, that guy looks awesome, but sheesh, life back then kinda sucked for most people! On the other hand, probably nothing extended life expectancy and health like having clean water supplies and sanitation (which is why these are such a big deal in developing countries!), so I believe it's quite possible to keep the best aspects of modern living like you mention, while maintaining a healthy criticism of other parts.

Edited January 18, 2024 by Cold Summer

[Duke Mantee]

5 hours ago, AlientoyWorkmachine said:

None of us on sufu are different, really!

Well.I.am

[beautiful_FrEaK]

On 1/15/2024 at 3:32 AM, shredwin_206 said:

Also where’s some of the other guys who used to post a lot? 
@Cucoo, @Max Power, @pudaspriest, and @volvo240thebest 

Max is back being a pure metal head and into 80s style. High top sneakers, slim tapered jeans (Nudies are his choice here...*gasp*) and going to metal shows.

[Double 0 Soul]

33 minutes ago, Duke Mantee said:

Well.I.am

He’s not on sufu.. he’s in the black eyed peas 

[Geeman]

7 hours ago, Cold Summer said:

My take on the SuFu style is a little different - we're a subculture (or maybe several!) I like subcultures. I think a lot of them are weird and I'm not interested, while others I find compelling. Either way, I think it's good that they're around. Especially in light of the sort of global monoculture I think a lot of us, on the last couple pages, have been critiquing from a couple different angles. Subcultures at their best push back and can sort of help reform and counterbalance the main culture, even if some degree of friction is inevitable.

My ribbing at the neo-90s aesthetic is a little more lighthearted (see my "Old-man-yelling-at-cloud" preface!) I guess what strikes me is a bit inauthentic about it, is that the kids doing it seem very far detached from it, themselves, and it can come across as being based on purely arbitrary whims. For myself, Gen Y dude born in the 80s, like most of my peers I have a great fondness for the sounds, looks, and general vibes of the 80s. But though the decade ended while I was still in diapers, its direct influence loomed large because I was exposed to a massive amount of 80s media, especially music and movies, during my childhood. So the 80s were actually an integral part of my most impressionable time, as is the case for a lot of people around my age. So the nostalgia of people ten years too young to have firsthand experience doesn't seem strange at all.

On the other hand, the Gen Z kids were born after 9/11, and it doesn't seem like the 90s stuff, like grunge, really persisted the way the 80s did. It's weird when I see a high schooler wearing a hoodie emblazoned with Nicktoons characters on it. I'm thinking, have you ever even watched any of those shows...? They were kind of way before your time. And that sort of thing. It's less like my generation getting all rosy-eyed about the 80s, and more like if everyone in my class in 2005 was obsessed with disco and 70s TV shows. There's plenty of stuff I like from the 90s, and I'm not gatekeeping telling Zoomer kids not to listen to Nirvana, or whatever. It just feels to me like the way this all arose was driven by internet algorithms and not the sort of grassroots way that subcultures used to be born. It's more like, I feel bad for them because it seems like they're being exploited, and looks and aesthetics are just one aspect of it. Could be wrong, but that's my take.

And it's certainly true there are plenty of things better about living now than in the past, and various harsh or brutal things about earlier times we can tend to gloss over or romanticize @AlientoyWorkmachine, so I'm with you there, that we should try to take a somewhat balanced view. We see pictures of men in cool rugged clothing in the 30s and think, that guy looks awesome, but sheesh, life back then kinda sucked for most people! On the other hand, probably nothing extended life expectancy and health like having clean water supplies and sanitation (which is why these are such a big deal in developing countries!), so I believe it's quite possible to keep the best aspects of modern living like you mention, while maintaining a healthy criticism of other parts.

I know what you've trying to say but is it not just as inauthentic as an American (or English/Scottish/Italian) guy trying to dress as a Japanese guy who is trying to dress as an American? 

There's always been subcultures through the years living alongside pop culture/ trend following groups. We think of the sixties and think Mods, but not everyone was a mod , 80s punk or skinheads, but again only a subculture not the mainstream. We just remember those groups because they were more "extreme" for the period.

The same is now with the pop culture being leisure wear and wearing your slippers to the supermarket and subcultures doing their own thing that most of us here are now to old to understand or appreciate.

We were exactly the same when we were young. 

Edited January 18, 2024 by Geeman

[unders]

What @Geeman said. Also, I think we’re doing the kids a bit of a disservice. To us they all look the same, but within their circles I’m sure there are many distinctions and subtleties in their style choices that make their clothing world as rich as ours. I’m also pretty confident that in my youth I’ll have worn a shitload of designs/emblems/characters that I had no clue of the real meaning of, and that’s all part of growing up - wisdom doesn’t come to us in early life and we shouldn’t expect it of these kids. 

Edited January 18, 2024 by unders

[Maynard Friedman]

I’m not necessarily sure food is better now than a generation or 2 ago. With the proliferation of ultra-processed food, sugar, seed oils, additives, chemical fertilisers, genetically modified crops, and all the takeaway shit (now instantly available via Uber Eats, Deliveroo), etc and the resulting increased obesity, heart disease, Type 2 diabetes, mental health issues, dementia and various other modern ailments, I think much of the modern diet is worse. The USA is probably ahead of the curve in terms of all this but much of the rest of the world (as usual) is quickly catching up.

[Double 0 Soul]

I think the 90s kids are only doing it passively aggressively. 

“your generation has fucked up our planet, with your fast fashion, importing jeans from Japan and waterproof membranes.. we’re going to remind you of this every time you see us” .. cnuts!

[Duke Mantee]

2 hours ago, Double 0 Soul said:

He’s not on sufu.. he’s in the black eyed peas 

Damn - I thought I was being witty - oh well(I.am.not)

[Double 0 Soul]

It’s far too early for that kind of humour .. although, i bet Fergie pissed herself 

[Geeman]

47 minutes ago, Double 0 Soul said:

It’s far too early for that kind of humour .. although, i bet Fergie pissed herself 

First time I've guffawed on here in a long time 🤣

[yung_flynn]

On 1/12/2024 at 5:37 AM, Double 0 Soul said:

You'd probably enjoy some of John Ruskins blabberings re- division of labour

@chicote@AlientoyWorkmachine you all might find Guy Debord’s Society of the Spectacle interesting, particularly chapters 1 and 2 and sections 25-34. Your discussion on work and chemicals made me pick it up again last night. 
 

The idea of craftsmanship and search for discovery is what led me to a PhD, something that’s been lost in the machine of corporate research and work. Even much academic research nowadays has strayed for strong fundamental, curiosity-driven research towards start-up commodification.

Edited January 18, 2024 by yung_flynn

[Cold Summer]

8 hours ago, Geeman said:

I know what you've trying to say but is it not just as inauthentic as an American (or English/Scottish/Italian) guy trying to dress as a Japanese guy who is trying to dress as an American? 

I guess you got me there! As some have probably noticed by now I'm particular about trying to dress in the Japanese Amekaji style than how it tends to get really reinterpreted through western denim fan lenses (for example, wearing a tight Iron Heart flannel with PBJ slim taper jeans and Iron Rangers is not even remotely how Japanese denim fans style that kind of stuff.) But at least in my case, I was already into Japanese stuff, including studying the language and culture, long before I discovered the denim subculture/aspect of it, so I can plausibly argue that my take is driven more by my long-standing interest in Japanese things than trying to dress just like a 30s factory worker or whathaveyou. At least in my perception, the latter approach is a bit more vulnerable to charges of hypocrisy and appropriation, or something like that. (As a side note, the whole nature of Japanese subcultures, of which the vintage/denim thing is absolutely an aspect, is really fascinating and distinct from in the West, and probably deserves a deep dive from somebody; though the Ametora book does touch on it some.)

8 hours ago, Geeman said:

The same is now with the pop culture being leisure wear and wearing your slippers to the supermarket and subcultures doing their own thing that most of us here are now to old to understand or appreciate.

We were exactly the same when we were young. 

Could be, but as I hinted in my previous post, in my observation I'm not sure these kids are really doing it "on purpose." The 90s revivalist kids, yes; sweatpants and pajamas kids, maybe not. The latter seems more like an extension of an American society-wide breakdown of any sense of formality/trying to appear presentable/care about how you look at all, which was very noticeable to me when I was a college student almost twenty years ago now and saw much the same thing from kids on my campus. Something about the idea that nobody cares how they look or are even conscious of it is weirdly unsettling to me.

[tooth]

This feels relevant to the conversation around authenticity and finding your own voice.

The Ezra Klein Show

[Geeman]

3 hours ago, Cold Summer said:

. At least in my perception, the latter approach is a bit more vulnerable to charges of hypocrisy and appropriation, or something like that. (

Is the purposely dressing as a Japanese person dressing as an American,  as an American not the ultimate appropriation? As you are appropriating the appropriator? 

You don't have to defend your position/style , it's just a counter observation. 

3 hours ago, Cold Summer said:

Could be, but as I hinted in my previous post, in my observation I'm not sure these kids are really doing it "on purpose." The 90s revivalist kids, yes; sweatpants and pajamas kids, maybe not

Maybe to use this example, the 90s kids are the subculture and the sweatpants kids are just the normal kids we all forget about when recalling an era?

Regarding the breakdown of formality and not caring of ones appearance,  I get you. However young people shouldn't be used to draw this conclusion. 

Some teens/ young uns really don't care (hoodie and jeans never getting washed and sloping around) or at least try and give the impression they don't care some wear what ever their mates wear, to fit in and the rest do a similar thing but within a subculture.  

[ATWM]

10 hours ago, Maynard Friedman said:

I’m not necessarily sure food is better now than a generation or 2 ago. ….

Yea, I think this is very true, and in speaks to the income inequality problem in a lot of ways. But, for my (fortunate) life, I can get better, healthier vegetable dishes way more easily from the local dining options. Better meat dishes too. Better n/a drink options. Better coffee. It’s not something everyone has access to, absolutely - and our family elects to pay for these things instead of other things (we don’t travel much at all, for instance). But when I grew up most restaurants were more or less just pub food (tasty at the right time, but I’d rather not it be my main fare nor would my doctor).

@yung_flynn I have complicated feelings about a lot of post-modern canonical works - including Society of the Spectacle - but I do think a lot of it is a useful framework. (For some background I did an MFA years ago, which in most universities is actually sort of like an amateur philosophy grad degree with professors who maybe aren’t the best at interpreting works of philosophy and oh then maybe some art stuff sprinkled in).

@Cold Summer a good friend of mine in college wore a robe and pajama pants nearly every day to class. Shoulder length hair he rarely if ever cut, unkempt beard. This could be seen as a statement, and I suppose in some way it was - something along the lines of “fuck the idea of dressing in a way that makes other people comfortable” - but as subversive as it was it was also about convenience, comfort and simplicity for him. The robed dude is one of the most good humans I’ve ever known and to this day devotes his life to advocating for homeless people to get rights and resources in the city of Chicago earning a meager wage doing so - and he could be making a lot more. I’m sure he wears a version of a khaki mid level manager uniform to work now in order to be able to do the work he wants to. I’m not sure people in PJ’s in public should make us uncomfortable - I know the world would be a better place with more of that dude even if everyone were in bathrobes. 

[Double 0 Soul]

13 minutes ago, Geeman said:

Maybe to use this example, the 90s kids are the subculture and the sweatpants kids are just the normal kids we all forget about when recalling an era?

Regarding the breakdown of formality and not caring of ones appearance,  I get you. However young people shouldn't be used to draw this conclusion. 

Some teens/ young uns really don't care (hoodie and jeans never getting washed and sloping around) or at least try and give the impression they don't care some wear what ever their mates wear, to fit in and the rest do a similar thing but within a subculture.  

Truth^

Most young folks i see driving luxury cars on Ecclesall Rd are wearing sweatpants, not because they don't care (they probably care more about their appearance than we do) .. it's simply because they like sweatpants.

They're every bit as ubiqutous as jeans but just like jeans.. they come in a variety of flavours..

For instance.. this grey flavour would set you back a cool £3200 ($4000)

..oh and the sweatshirt costs the same.. to think this person splerging £7000 on loungewear doesn't care about his appearance is ludicrous

[mpukas]

I'll just leave this here... I can't... can't even comment... 

BEWARE: read at your own risk. 

[shredwin_206]

@mpukas did you get a pair haha 

[mpukas]

48 minutes ago, shredwin_206 said:

@mpukas did you get a pair haha 

🤣

[LazyS]

@shredwin_206 I can't wait to see what your black bears look like after a year of working construction!

[shredwin_206]

@LazyS that was my pair. Now they’re selling them  

[Maynard Friedman]

Dust off your Timberlands if you still have them and they haven’t disintegrated. The 90s must be coming back around…

I’ll bet @Geeman is dancing a jig to this news!