Denim Blunders, Reflections and General Nonsense.

[Max Power]

Well, I beg to differ. But maybe that's because I've seen some other things that interest me run down when too big companies / Players appeared in the market and tried to push things forward. Even if it seems like we all would benefit from it, there might come the time you end up with just one big Player and are stuck on his selection.

 

Just happened to my favorite record store - even the current Vinyl Boom didn't help him make it due to online Shopping, in a City that is well known for its alternative music scene. Now I don't have the chance to browse through records anymore and have to buy online - a Major turndown IMO.  Of course I can still get what I'm looking for, but I miss the chance to meet people, find something by pure luck and have the same excitement as I was a kid and finding the one record I never expected the local record store to sell.

 

Same happened to the bike industry, skateboarding and is about to happen with Whisky, just to name a few other examples.

 

Of course that's ecnomy and you might say I'm exaggerating, but I really prefer the vibe of a lively Underground with many Players to just one huge Company, even if they deliver a similar range of products.

[kiya]

Don't get it twisted, the brick & mortar version of your favorite online store is always a struggle, even if you're talking about Self Edge's new expansion, Standard & Strange's moving a block into a larger location, Blue in Green opening up their second floor, or Rivet & Hide adding more brands and becoming a force in the British scene.  It's not easy and it's definitely never on autopilot.  What Denimio does makes having a brick and mortar store extremely difficult, especially considering the stores i mentioned are directly effected by a business which exists to undercut them selling brands which have an extremely limited market interest.

Edited June 15, 2016 by kiya

[Cucoo]

Just recently I discovered that there's a shop (called Statement) in Munich, so just 1h away from me, that stocks every brand I'm interested in right now (Sugar Cane and SOC for example), and I won't mind paying €100 more for a pair of jeans if I get to try it on. If you do the math, with no sizing surprises, no shipping costs, no worries about customs and free hemming for store bought jeans, it's not that big of a deal to pay €299 instead of ¥23.000.

 

Of course I also appreciate the cheap(er) Denimio prices, but I'm sure I'm not the only one taking advantage of all avenues of purchase available instead of only the cheapest one.

[chicote]

Totally agree with everything that's been said.

 

Just down the street from where I work there's a little produce shop, tucked away in the corner of a small lot, that's been owned by a single family for a couple of decades at least. They're good friends with many of the farmers who sell them produce and regularly go to tour farms around the state and surrounding area to ensure that what they're getting is environmentally sound and ethically produced—on top of that, they go out of their way to recommend recipes to regular customers with whom they've developed relationships. In the past couple of years, their lease has switched from long-term to month-to-month as the owner of the lot is looking to sell the land for redevelopment, and last week the owner of the produce shop told me that their place is coming down in order to construct a Whole Foods. When the topic came up at work this weekend, a customer remarked that they were glad to see the change, as the fruits from the produce shop were, in their experience, "good, but misshapen and dirty".

 

Misshapen and dirty, sure, but that sounds a lot more real than the picked-through perfect fruits and vegetables that you'd find at a large supermarket—and that, to me, is much of its appeal. I'd much rather buy produce from someone who knows my name and what I like, and can tell me details of their produce and their experience with the producer, than a consistent but soulless bag of vegetables from employees who may not know more about their product than what they can read off the sign. It's the same reason that I loved going to Self Edge San Francisco years ago, hearing the employees blasting hardcore and talking about music, seeing what jeans I was wearing and recommending me things they thought might be similar, much more than I liked buying jeans at Nordstrom or wherever when I was a kid—it's why I remember that Self Edge trip more than any trip to any department store at all. And way more I'd ever remember buying something online.

 

Anyway, what I'm trying to say is, the aforementioned brick-and-mortar shops are the dirty produce stands of the denim world, and truly one of the most beautiful and important parts of our community. (That goes also for online [for us] shops like Pants Shop Avenue.) It'd be a shame to lose any of them to out-competition from a larger, less personal online retailer.

[Niro]

As a consumer, I am glad to see Denimio expand their product offering. It gives me the exposure to brands/products I would never see outside of Japan, all at a Japanese price point.

 

I can understand the apprehension that people have towards such growth. In any retail market, online has and always will be a threat to brick and mortar stores. But I feel the fantastic personal touch of the stores in the raw denim market and their own online presence will allow them to compete and survive against the Denimios of the world. I can walk into Rivet & Hide (for example) with the peace of mind that I will get excellent advice and help to get the best size/fit, shrink, aftercare, etc. I can't get that from an online store. Premium clothing is expensive and buying online and ending up with an expensive mistake is a big risk. In my opinion (and i'm sure many others), that makes it worth the price difference. 

 

Others will not have that mentality, especially people new to this sort of clothing, their only experience would be with cheap mass produced clothing available everywhere online and in big faceless high street stores. I was the same.

 

I have bought twice from Denimio and would have no problem doing so again. I had a good shopping experience. But if I can get the same product from a store based in London that I can actually try on and get fitting advice, etc then i'm sure as hell going to the store.

[Maynard Friedman]

Most people probably wouldn't use a brick and mortar store if they're sure of the sizing and can make a significant saving buying directly from Japan.

I have bought directly from b&m shops in the UK and would like to support them but the price differential on products between the UK and Japan is often sooo large that it makes no rational economic sense to do so. There seems to be less of a price disparity in the USA (I'm sure there are valid reasons for this [European import duties perhaps] and it isn't just due to UK retailers hiking up prices unreasonably) and if I lived there, I'd be more inclined to buy from BiG, Self Edge, S&S, Blue Owl, etc if they were within easy reach than I am from shops here in London.

[beautiful_FrEaK]

Just recently I discovered that there's a shop (called Statement) in Munich, so just 1h away from me, that stocks every brand I'm interested in right now (Sugar Cane and SOC for example), and I won't mind paying €100 more for a pair of jeans if I get to try it on. If you do the math, with no sizing surprises, no shipping costs, no worries about customs and free hemming for store bought jeans, it's not that big of a deal to pay €299 instead of ¥23.000.

 

Of course I also appreciate the cheap(er) Denimio prices, but I'm sure I'm not the only one taking advantage of all avenues of purchase available instead of only the cheapest one.

 

For how much do Statement sell the Sugar Cane products? SugarCane is a rather cheap brand in Japan compared to what quality they offer and usually they are crazy overpriced in Europe. At least in the UK where the main distributor is/was.

[ColonelAngus]

Most people probably wouldn't use a brick and mortar store if they're sure of the sizing and can make a significant saving buying directly from Japan.

I have bought directly from b&m shops in the UK and would like to support them but the price differential on products between the UK and Japan is often sooo large that it makes no rational economic sense to do so. There seems to be less of a price disparity in the USA (I'm sure there are valid reasons for this [European import duties perhaps] and it isn't just due to UK retailers hiking up prices unreasonably) and if I lived there, I'd be more inclined to buy from BiG, Self Edge, S&S, Blue Owl, etc if they were within easy reach than I am from shops here in London.

 

another point i'd like to make is that a lot of customers simply do not have access to B&M stores in their hometowns that carry those hard to find Japanese brands, thus, online ordering is the only way to go. Where I live there are maybe 2 or 3 B&M's that sell denim and they're mostly US brands. I think one of them carries Momotaro but i'm not a fan so it makes no difference to me. For the uninitiated, ordering direct from Japan makes the most sense from a financial point of view, simply because not all of us have a disposable income.

 

I've stated this before but a lot of people are all about customer service when it comes to online ordering. I've ordered once from Okayama Denim and once from Denimio, and even though their selection is good their measurements often times are not. If I end up ordering the wrong size from one of these stores it's still an expensive mistake to make, whereas, if you bought something from a US B&M you can usually exchange or return the item with less risk. Also, competition will always be pretty fierce with B&M's in the US. If you're buying a brand like PBJ who are you going to throw your hard earned dollars at? BOW? Mild Blend Supply? BiG?

[Niro]

Most people probably wouldn't use a brick and mortar store if they're sure of the sizing and can make a significant saving buying directly from Japan.

I have bought directly from b&m shops in the UK and would like to support them but the price differential on products between the UK and Japan is often sooo large that it makes no rational economic sense to do so. There seems to be less of a price disparity in the USA (I'm sure there are valid reasons for this [European import duties perhaps] and it isn't just due to UK retailers hiking up prices unreasonably) and if I lived there, I'd be more inclined to buy from BiG, Self Edge, S&S, Blue Owl, etc if they were within easy reach than I am from shops here in London.

 

Well when customs, shipping (and maybe post hemming) come into it, the price differential is not too large. Of course you can undervalue the goods to try to bypass custom charges, but that effectively voids any insurance and if customs check and think its been undervalued, you can still get hit with tax. 

It's up to the individual whether they would be willing to take the risk.

 

No surprise on the price disparity between UK and USA. It's unfortunately the same for almost every type of product.

[Cucoo]

For how much do Statement sell the Sugar Cane products? SugarCane is a rather cheap brand in Japan compared to what quality they offer and usually they are crazy overpriced in Europe. At least in the UK where the main distributor is/was.

 

I haven't asked about SC prizing but SOC seems to be same prize as e.g. Selfedge. I plan on dropping by the store next time I'm in Munich.

[setterman]

It's not rocket science.  If you go into a store and try something on and like it, or you pester that store online or via email with questions about a product, you buy from them.  If you know what you want through online research and comparison, buy from whomever you're comfortable doing business with.  

 

Every business faces competition from online vendors, no reason premium denim will be any different.  That's why (at least in the US) those that open store fronts to sell premium denim do so in areas with hundreds of thousands to millions of potential customers within a 30 mile circle of them to draw from.  If you can't run a niche business in a market of that size, it's time to rethink your business model or the product you're selling.   

[EdwardBear]

It's not rocket science.  If you go into a store and try something on and like it, or you pester that store online or via email with questions about a product, you buy from them.  If you know what you want through online research and comparison, buy from whomever you're comfortable doing business with.  

 

Every business faces competition from online vendors, no reason premium denim will be any different.  That's why (at least in the US) those that open store fronts to sell premium denim do so in areas with hundreds of thousands to millions of potential customers within a 30 mile circle of them to draw from.  If you can't run a niche business in a market of that size, it's time to rethink your business model or the product you're selling.   

 

 

Totally agree, and I think as with most things in life it comes down to balance- I've bought from the likes of SoaS and Rivet and Hide even though I knew I could get cheaper online, but I've also ordered from Denimio a couple of times too. My latest purchase of the Fullcount 1100-15 WW2s from last year were from Standard & Strange, because they were the only vendors that had my size. After being hit with a £70 customs fee, I found they had made a mistake and sent me some standard Fullcount 1101s. They sent me the WW2s without asking me to send back the 1101s first, and because of the hassle of shipping returns offered me a good discount if I kept the 1101s.

Granted I ended up spending more (especially with customs charge) and getting 2 pairs rather than 1, but S&S customer service and communication was superb and I'd use them again. 

However, with my denim rail heaving and a ton still to wear, if anyone fancies the 1101s  in a size 31 for a good price let me know!

[Frost]

And the Denimio expansion continues, now with tons of new Eternal products, as well as them starting to stock Redmoon wallets. Curious how/when this will end.

[Cucoo]

It seems like they cycle through stuff to see what sells. Until a few weeks ago they had a huge selection of Samurai tees and pants from their motorcycle and "fishing" lines but most of that stuff seems to have disappeared...

[Geeman]

Do we suspect that brands are using Denimio to make stuff available to a wide, worldwide market and if no intrest/orders they take it down? They may never actually even hold the stock.

[kiya]

FYI, Denimio has lost many of their accounts in the last few months.. just in the last few weeks they lost their accounts with Samurai, PBJ, Somet, and Fullcount.

Edited June 17, 2016 by kiya

[garden gnomes in space]

Im going to ask bluntly, but this is purely speculation on my part:  Did BiG complain about them?  I ask because they carry all of those brands.

Edited June 17, 2016 by garden gnomes in space

[kiya]

Im going to ask bluntly, but this is purely speculation on my part:  Did BiG complain about them?  I ask because they carry all of those brands.

 

 

People enjoy pointing fingers at SE and BiG (and I don't mean to single you out here...) but it's not 2007 any more, there are quite a few retailers for all of those brands in the US, Canada, Switzerland, UK, Germany, Australia, and more.  

Some of those brands even sell more product in Europe than they do in the US.  The stakes in this scene have changed drastically in the past few years with the Japanese market not buying like they used to and the international market growing.

So to answer your question, it's not a single store doing this.

Edited June 17, 2016 by kiya

[Maynard Friedman]

I understand that some time ago Full Count weren't happy with the prices Denimio were selling their products at (lower than their own) and insisted they raise them. It could be the next logical step for them to end the relationship completely. The same may be true of the other brands. Not only are they and their key retailers being undercut but they may not like being perceived as 'cheaper' brands.

[EdwardBear]

People enjoy pointing fingers at SE and BiG (and I don't mean to single you out here...) but it's not 2007 any more, there are quite a few retailers for all of those brands in the US, Canada, Switzerland, UK, Germany, Australia, and more.  

Some of those brands even sell more product in Europe than they do in the US.  The stakes in this scene have changed drastically in the past few years with the Japanese market not buying like they used to and the international market growing.

So to answer your question, it's not a single store doing this.

 

 

We live in a global village now, and retailers on every continent are aware of this- I personally love the fact that I can (and have) ordered from (and physically visited) various overseas stores and (with variances of currency aside) always been super happy. I ordered online and personally purchased Mister Freedom from Self Edge, Samurai from Blue in Green, FullCount from Standard and Strange, whilst buying ONI from Son of a Stag here in London, as well as a pair from Denimio because no one else had my size/style. 

When one is a true denim geek, you share the love, appreciate the bricks and mortar stores, their online props, shipping and all the challenges (hello customs charges!) that come with it, but also scour Yahoo auctions and the Japanese sites. We are denim geeks. As such, we are one, not opposed. Let's celebrate that, and avoid the 'xcorp charge this but ycorp charge that' :-)

Support our scene! Peace :-)

[edmond]

i complained to miki about it a year ago.

[Niro]

Aren't Japanese stores on Rakuten doing the same thing as Denimio but just on a smaller scale? Or is the problem that Denimio offer free shipping and provide good customer service in english?

[denihilist]

My guess is that the stores on Rakuten aren't actively targeting the overseas market.

[ColonelAngus]

I understand that some time ago Full Count weren't happy with the prices Denimio were selling their products at (lower than their own) and insisted they raise them. It could be the next logical step for them to end the relationship completely. The same may be true of the other brands. Not only are they and their key retailers being undercut but they may not like being perceived as 'cheaper' brands.

Is/was Denimio selling their stuff below market value or at fair market value? If they were in fact undercuttibg the brands they carry I can see why it might be a problem. However, if they're charging the fair market value, that is, the same cost an item would sell for if you were a shopper in Japan, then I don't see why that's an issue. But, I don't own a business so don't know the complexities of international commerce. Ithink in order for B&M's to thrive they have to offer exclusivity, which some do.

[clt3]

Is/was Denimio selling their stuff below market value or at fair market value? If they were in fact undercuttibg the brands they carry I can see why it might be a problem. However, if they're charging the fair market value, that is, the same cost an item would sell for if you were a shopper in Japan, then I don't see why that's an issue. But, I don't own a business so don't know the complexities of international commerce. Ithink in order for B&M's to thrive they have to offer exclusivity, which some do.

 

They're marking down on the value of the products, which means that the consumers don't need to pay import taxes. B&M stores on the other hand, need to pay these prices, which means there is quite a price difference.

[Frost]

Do we suspect that brands are using Denimio to make stuff available to a wide, worldwide market and if no intrest/orders they take it down? They may never actually even hold the stock.

 

Could be - it is certainly worthy to note that many of the new product pictures are not the normal Denimio pictures, but are rather taken from the webstore of the brand (e.g. Eternal). You could always ask them to get you stuff from the brands they stocked anyways, even if it wasn't available in their (Denimio's) webshop, so this just seems like the next logical step.

 

 

FYI, Denimio has lost many of their accounts in the last few months.. just in the last few weeks they lost their accounts with Samurai, PBJ, Somet, and Fullcount.

 

 

Interesting. What does this mean, exactly? They will discontinue them/not able to place new orders? Especially interesting because they just launched the Samurai/ONI contest and already did a PBJ contest (although not without complaints from other retailers), so I kinda assumed that those two would be somewhat safe for them.

[Cucoo]

Yeah, I wonder the same thing, why do the contests and collabs just to kill their accounts soon after?

[edmond]

Money money money

[beautiful_FrEaK]

If I remember correctly, Denimio sold Full Count are Japanese retail but without the Japanese VAT if you buy from abroad. Which is legitim and shops like Cultitn also do. Combined with the free shipping, this was a very good deal.

Then they raised the prices for Full Count, probably due to the pressure of other retailers outside Japan.

 

But like other people said, you can buy from many other shops through Rakuten or directly from them. If you buy directly from them, many of those shops will also mark the package at a low value. And also many of those shops offer free shipping or a discount on shipping.

But of course Denimio is the shop which targets probably  at foreign buyers the most. 

[Danny @ Rivet & Hide]

It's encouraging to see so much open support for R&H, Self Edge and other such like stores bringing the best Japanese denim brands to its corner of the world. We get quite a few customers who dream of owning a business like this (if only to house their enormous collection of jeans). However, it's a labour of love and bloody hard with so many challenges along the way our customers never see.

 

In the UK we have a referendum in the coming week on whether we remain in the EU  the result of which will have a huge impact on whether we can continue to grow and survive in an increasingly competitive market. Exchange rates/tariffs/taxes/shipping costs are daily worries. The margins are small compared with high street stores. It's not a get rich quick business. So when a customer gets an email from me saying thank you it is genuine. Each sale helps pay a bill waiting to be paid.

 

Most of the brands mentioned here understand that their growth outside of Japan is due to the hard work  done and risks taken by their overseas retailers and many of them want to nurture that. They don't want to see these stores fail. 

Edited June 18, 2016 by Danny @ Rivet & Hide