Denim Blunders, Reflections and General Nonsense.

[Cold Summer]

A big part of Roy's appeal is the one-man-brand vibe and unique details/little things he works into his jeans. They're not really my thing either. Roy seems more like it'd appeal to people who are into brands like LVC or Rising Sun, but who want something more unique/exclusive. 

 

If I were a guy like Roy who had the resources to make jeans start-finish by myself, I think I'd just make a standard line of jeans for retail sale, but make my main focus on one-off made-to-order pairs. If I was going to be a one-man sweatshop, I'd want to have a nice amount of variety, personally - treating each pair like a high-end luthier treats guitar making, where each "model" is unique. But it may be that with jeans it's hard to produce on that scale and make much money off of it.

 

Here's a fun question for you guys: you have the resources and connections to open a clothing shop. Ignore exclusivity details and the existence of other stores - what brands would you carry, what models would you stock, and why? And what else would you sell?

[goodrain]

For me the least appealing part of ROY jeans is the denim and the most appealing parts are the construction and details, although his last 2-3 exclusive fabrics have looked more interesting than standard Cone.

 

His shirts have both great fabrics and great details.

[dwilson123]

I think for Roy either the concept of the one man operation resonates with you or it doesn't.  I mean you could make a list for why buying ANY $250+ jeans is absolutely stupid.

[setterman]

but I just don’t see the allure of Roy denim.

 

The allure is a small batch jean, with a new model or two a year.  That's it, because I can't see anything else about his product's materials, construction, or patterns that makes them any more special than any of the other brands SE (or BiG) carries.   He came along a few years ago where sufu's attention was regularly jumping from new brand to new brand.  He developed a following, and then paired with SE.  Suddenly this growing flavor of the month became exclusive.  You could no longer place an order with him, you had to sit and wait for the next release.  And when something came along, you had to act fast, or you were going to to have to wait another six months for your next try.  That exclusivity has driven and guaranteed future demand.

 

He makes nice stuff, and IMO his patterns have improved over time.  But, I don't care for the back pocket stitching, and I really don't care for the idea of having to compete to get a product.        

[youngofthesoonest]

I may be alone here but the whole one man brand thing doesn't matter to me at all. Sure, It's a good story to tell but it doesn't matter unless the stuff is actually good. There are plenty of operations out there where it's one person making the jean start to finish and the product they're making is just not good.

 

I understand why his stuff doesn't appeal to people but I don't think there's any denying that he makes really good products regardless of whether he's a one man brand or not. It's not like he's taking the standard 12oz Cone Mills that everyone can get their hands on, making a mediocre jean and then upcharging a ton just because it's "exclusive". His latest denim is very nice...comparable to the denim I've seen from brands like Stevenson, Fullcount, warehouse, etc. 

[denihilist]

I ran into Roy at Lane Splitters in Oakland on my first visit to the area.  He sat at the table next to us.  I said hi and he was totally amazed that I recognized him at all.  I think he was on a date and I really hope that me being a star struck nerd got him laid.  

Edited January 13, 2016 by denihilist

[denihilist]

When I told the story to my wife's friend the next day she was like, "Roy that makes jeans...that lives in the apartment below me Roy?"  So it's a small world I guess.

[givemefive]

actually I kind of had a funny reaction to the Roy purchase. I felt that they were so expensive and I was so disappointed by the strange fit that I bought a pair of 501s from Macy's and swore off expensive denim for 2 years.  I felt that if you spent $350 on a really cool pair with amazing details and it didn't even fit, what was the point of trying that crapshoot again.

 

Luckily I had a chance to visit NYC last year and Left Field had a cool pair for me.  I would give Roy another shot for sure.  But unfortunately most things (especially their Japanese stuff) at self edge fits me like total shit.  I really like the stuff conceptually, but its made for like 5'4" dudes I feel. Some of the Japanese brands they don't carry seem to fit me better which is unfortunate because their stores are cool and I like visiting.

 

Don't know. Hope it goes better this time around.  Shrink to fit stuff is just so weird, it's obvious why the Japanese prefer the one-wash. While americans are obsessed with 'raw'.

 

One concept I had was the idea of having 'loaner jeans' that you could rent for $20/day or whatever. The most popular models could be demoed out to try out for fit.  Then if you decide to purchase you could get that credit back.  (similar to how tennis racket demos work) Maybe some day Self Edge/ BiG could implement it. They obviously can't open stores everywhere in the US! but the mail is pretty effective.

Edited January 13, 2016 by givemefive

[goodrain]

you feel that jeans with 37 inch inseams are made for 5'4'' dudes?

[givemefive]

you feel that jeans with 37 inch inseams are made for 5'4'' dudes?

 

No but 10" rise jeans are just.. not comfortable and all the shirts and jackets are quite short in length and sleeve.

 

Besides, 37" is mostly a style / fad / universality thing. 

Edited January 13, 2016 by givemefive

[Cold Summer]

I totally understand givemefive, the thing most people don't realize is that in order for jeans to actually fit well on tall people, the rise and knee width need to be the correct proportional size, there's more to it than just a long inseam. Jeans like the PBJ slim straight fits and Flat Head 3001 don't scale well to tall people for those reasons. 

 

You should try out 3Sixteen, I've tried and owned most of the best Japanese brands and honestly prefer 3Sixteen for most stuff these days - they're not as fancy and don't have the same crazy details like selvedge flannel or engraved hidden rivets, but jeans and shirts actually fit a tall slim guy like me and I like how they're kinda between more heritage/vintage inspired brands and a more modern urban aesthetic.

[Max Power]

^^ Well, I'm not super tall but being 6'2" and 85 kg I don't feel like I am build like the average japanese male. And I don't find it hard to find good fits nor have problems with the sizing of raw denim. I think there are less options with 10" rise than with above 11" - unless you're looking for a slim-skinny fit, which is not the most popular thing in japan. Even for tall people there are jeans with an raw inseam of 38-40". Shirts and jackets are a bit harder, but also there you got many brands that fit us western guys. And as BIG offers many jeans in ow and raw you might be able to get or try on shrunken pairs.

 

Not trying to bust your balls, just saying it's not as bad as you wrote.

[Iron Horse]

Don't know. Hope it goes better this time around.  Shrink to fit stuff is just so weird, it's obvious why the Japanese prefer the one-wash. While americans are obsessed with 'raw'.

 

This is interesting, and something that I've noticed; are the Japanese just not as "hardcore" or do they simply not want to screw up sizing?

 

I'd imagine that if you're a married Japanese salaryman on an allowance from the wife, you would want to get the right fit from the start and thus go one-wash, but that's just my theory.

[MoonFuneral]

Yeah I've always wanted to buy a few shirts from Spellbound, but the biggest I see them run in the chest is 42", which won't work at all for me. A lot of the Japanese brands that are only stocked by a couple of US/Euro stores only make sizes that make sense in Japan. Often times the our stores have to talk the brand into making bigger sizes. I'm pretty sure the high rise Momotaro's I'm currently wearing from Blue Owl aren't sold in Japan.

Edited January 14, 2016 by MoonFuneral

[beautiful_FrEaK]

A little late to the party but here we go:

 

I work as a head of laboratory and luckily I can wear whatever I want. Except I have to wear laboratory coat. But I can wear all my jeans whenever I want and I really enjoy this freedom. Since I work in a lab where we do all the analyses for the juices we produce/blend I don’t work with hazardous chemicals so the risk of getting acid burns or the like is reduced.

 

To have the possibility to decide what I can wear is a big plus for me. Jeans are a part of my life and I don’t want to be forced to wear something I don’t like.

[Cold Summer]

^^ Well, I'm not super tall but being 6'2" and 85 kg I don't feel like I am build like the average japanese male. And I don't find it hard to find good fits nor have problems with the sizing of raw denim. I think there are less options with 10" rise than with above 11" - unless you're looking for a slim-skinny fit, which is not the most popular thing in japan. Even for tall people there are jeans with an raw inseam of 38-40". Shirts and jackets are a bit harder, but also there you got many brands that fit us western guys. And as BIG offers many jeans in ow and raw you might be able to get or try on shrunken pairs.

 

Not trying to bust your balls, just saying it's not as bad as you wrote.

 

Actually I agree with you - the difference is that you're several waist sizes larger (34 or 36, right?) than me (usually 31), so the rise/knee/etc. is proportionally a better size for you. Most Japanese guys wearing these kinds of clothes seem to be a 32 or smaller, and they're a whole lot shorter than me. I guess you can blame me for having tall/slim proportions, but it's not all that unusual, at least in the US.

 

I never run into this problem with American brands like 3Sixteen, or the tops from more widely available brands like JCrew (where a size Small fits very well in the shoulders, arm length, and hem.) I wish it was more practical to get shirts and their sleeves "hemmed" so you'd buy your chest/shoulder size and have the rest tailored a bit, but given the complexities of a shirt cuff and the hem shape, I understand why this is rarely possible. Whole brands that I'd otherwise like to wear, like Iron Heart, are totally off-limits because in order to get long enough sleeves, the body would end up fitting like a potato sack.

Edited January 14, 2016 by Cold Summer

[setterman]

No but 10" rise jeans are just.. not comfortable 

 

Is that rise too small or too big?  I assume the former.  I know there are many brands and models over the years I've skipped trying because post wash their rise will be 11" or less.  Too short to be comfortable on a size 36 or 38 IMO.  

[JohnM]

Quick comment regarding Roy and his jeans.  Not everyone is going to love the fit (relatively high rise) or the denim (Cone) but there's no denying the sewing quality and construction.  I've owned jeans from Samurai, Warehouse, Iron Heart, Dry Bones, 3Sixteen+, Fullcount, Ooe, and Roy.  The most precisely and evenly sewn are Ooe and Roy.  In addition, Roy includes sewing details that are unique to his jeans due to his use of a variety of sewing machines with interesting stitch patterns.  While the recent button issue is unfortunate, I applaud Roy for coming forward with Kiya and addressing it quickly.

 

Roy jeans aren't perfect but they are different from other jeans.  If I'm going to wear jeans to go to dinner at a nice restaurant, I usually pick Roy's because of the clean line (very linear from waist through hips) and less hairy, harder-surfaced Cone denim.  It looks less casual and more 'formal'.  Not formal as in Cal Naughton Jr's 'tuxedo t-shirt' in Ricky Bobby, but formal in a good way!

 

[Iron Horse]

When I'm feeling like 'formal denim' I'm usually reaching for something like this:

 

[DhaDha]

I used to think Roy wasn't interesting until i copped a pair, but you have to be a specific kind of denim nerd to really be into his stuff. Neat sewing details, clean and tidy aesthetic, as oppose to Japanese extravaganza a la samurai gold plated button and silver selvedge accent, must be your cup of tea. Regarding his Cone, i have handled a lot of run of the mill cone, and LVC Cones, and a pair of Roy i have. LVC Cones are a step or two above standard sanforized cone and Roy's Cone is a head and shoulder above LVC Cones. Very characterful in a subtle way. No, they won't have high contract flaking fades like Japanese denim, but i think they have their own characters and charms.  However, if you look back to his RoyXCone denim, you see they can provide relatively high contract fades too, and his latest black seed denim should deliver similarly (I'm wanting a pair in the face of a change in my dress code dismissing jeans from my vernacular wardrobe).

 

And allow me to digress back to my earlier point regarding named denim houses. Like i said, Viapana and few others denim tailors are based here in Bangkok, and he has a killer Nihon Menpu 40400 denim I could have commissioned easily. Now Viapana is an experienced denim tailor who knows his stuff and can churn out quality stuff with all the right detailings. But given the choice I would still plunge for  original Sugar Cane SC40400, it wouldn't be a contest. There are lots of places who can make details-corrected bespoke/MTM denim yet a lot of us wouldn't go for them (notice the disdain for 3x1 orLevi's bespoke program amongst denimheads this side of the web). and yet, i bet that if Samurai/SDA/Momo/PBJ/FH starts offering MTM/Bespoke cut in their denim with all the correct detailing many of us would jump at the opportunity, given that distance/communication aren't a factor.     

 

I'm not suggesting we are brandwhore, at least not to the extent that hypebeaster and fashion victim arctypes are. we are brand-oriented insofar as the brand we are into uphold the values we ourselves uphold, and for most of us these are craftsmanship, materials. vintage detailings, more classical/heritage aesthetic, community, and a level of transparency in garment production and supply chains. Most, if not all the brands we like fit the bills, and that is why some made in china (red cloud/ sauce zhen, etc.), Indonesian (old blues/sage/sagara) and other non-japanese asian brands can easily be accepted in this side of menswear than in other subset: they uphold these value to the point of fetishize-ing them.

 

Moreover, it is the narrative different denim houses spin to us the consumers. The japanese has a very specific image they portray, and specific lores that go with their products. Most of us buy into them. American products present a different narrative, and so does one man brand, and on and on. Roy presents his in a particular, specific fashion, and you either like it or you don't,just like some of us don't like Iron Heart or Samurai. The problem with unknown private denim operation, even if they offer MTM/bespoke service, and much like the situation with classical/formal tailoring too, is that they do not offer the same kind of values and narrative proposition we can buy into and play along, or do but they do not suit our preference.

 

After all, we wear the cloths we wish to be seen in and be transformed into a crafted identity of our own choosing, and the easiest way to achieve that and present it to the world at large is to buy into a pre-existing narratives of the brands we support, even if only a limited subset of population can ever hope to understand us and play along in our game of playing a part in the social structures. 

Edited January 16, 2016 by DhaDha

[Geeman]

A very good point DhaDha, whilst not in the same vein as Hype beasts we are undoubtedly brand influenced. Perhaps to a certain extent we are even more so than someone who follows fashion closely, abandoning brands and changing their look as the next big thing comes along as many of our community stay committed to a brand for a long time with repeated purchases of their products. Yes this is also down to proven quality and desirable details but we can't deny we also identify with / crave specific brands.

[ALB]

I agree in part with what you're saying but again it has to be emphasized we trust branded jeans because they stood our test. Bespoke or MTM aren't much liked around here because 1) price 2) unfamiliarity. Levis bespoke and 3x1 are pricey and/or mediocre for what they offer. It's one thing to have a bespoke suit but a bespoke jean? Ehhhh. Would you pay $1200 from 3x1 for jeans or about $450+ from Levis?

 

MTM is a bit different. As some offer really low prices with maybe decent denim but are just unfamiliar and most aren't willing to take a chance. But yeah, narrative is something that is big with "heritage" brands/marketing and some people take it way too seriously.

[Geeman]

So random thinking out loud here..I know its brand specific but thought Id get a less biased response here. I have a pair of Oni 517. (Should have got the 512 fit in hindsight.) Theres a tiny blowout coming on the pocket from my phone which is annoying me. The jeans arent really worn and faded yet as I dont wear them that hard and have PBJ and SDA in main roatation. The begining of the hole sticks out to much for me as the jeans themselves still look relatively new.

In addition I can see the begining of failure at the fly, you know if the jeans are to tight the piece of denin the buttons attach to starts to pull away from the jean exposing the stiching and looking like its going to rip? Only these arent tight on me at all!

I think by now we all know that Oni arent hand made by a reclusive master weaver theres simply to many sizes and varients available and they have been easily available for long enough for their build quality and durability to be tested so whats peoples experience of them?

The reason I ask is that despite the above Im actually considering getting another pair in the 512 though this time possibly in the 16oz as the 14oz I have feel very thin and light.

Are my quality concerns founded or just an isolated issue?

[Frost]

No personal experience, but check the Oni thread. Cander was very unhappy with his pair in terms of quality and he trashed them extremely quickly, even by his standards. There are plenty of people who go absolutely nuts for Oni, though.

Edited January 16, 2016 by Frost

[dwilson123]

Oni has never really been known as a "quality first" brand in my eyes.  But they're still MiJ so the quality of construction is relatively high.  It is unfortunate about the fly but every single pair of jeans I own develop a hole or a stitching tear in the pocket bag from my phone.

[Max Power]

I don't know where I got it from (maybe cander) but something's stuck in my mind regarding Oni not offering the highest quality. But that's just the folder I filed that brand in in my head.

[beautiful_FrEaK]

It was definitely Cander, whose pair desintegrated quite quickly.

[spitfiredealer]

Mine have held up pretty well. Was concerned when i saw Cander's. They fade very quickly i will say that about them 

[Max Power]

To continue a thought I wrote down in the Evolution of Jeans thread...has anybody ever successfully tried to give his Jeans a different character than he normally achieves? For some years I've come to like the marbling and vintage character of some Repro brands but I never got fades like that, even when I washed a lot (and thought this might help them to look a bit like aho's pairs).

When that didn't have any effect I switched to Warehouse, hoping that it was the denim that makes the difference. But so far I seem to end up with similar fading characterstics as always. I know that the same wearer will most likely creat similar Fadings, still it is a strange observation that the oh-so-important washing & wearing routine has little effect on the outcome.

 

(Maybe I should wash my Resolute right-side-out every week and use a dryer, this might push it).

Edited January 18, 2016 by Max Power

[Cold Summer]

It seems like washing every week would get you fades like that, right? When I worked at Flat Head a lot of guys washed their jeans every week and they had a totally different sort of character compared to the kind of FH I see on SuFu, for example.