Denim Blunders, Reflections and General Nonsense.

[Broark]

Left Field isn't pulling any punches. Fabric looks identical to the one IH used a couple years ago.

[Hopethisoneisnttaken]

i don’t get why the feel the need to talk down on other brands.

[AlientoyWorkmachine]

Criticism is part of any healthy society (IMO).

People who don’t find LF a good competitor will have their own reasons. And I think it’s fair enough to call out IH UK pricing as suspect.

Personally, if I wore flannels (I don’t almost as a rule) I’d love to give these a shot because I’m not much a fan of IH patterning, and this doesn’t even get into the things that matter less to me. 

[kiya]

5 hours ago, Broark said:

Left Field isn't pulling any punches. Fabric looks identical to the one IH used a couple years ago.

This is not a very good look for Left Field.  Criticism is one thing, this IG post by them is another.. I don't recall the last time I saw a brand talking down to another brand publicly like this.  

Fun fact, we used to carry Left Field for two seasons when we opened in 2006!

Edited September 7, 2023 by kiya

[busterthehuman]

30 minutes ago, kiya said:

This is such a horrible look for Left Field.  Criticism is one thing, this IG post by them is another.. I don't recall the last time I saw a brand talking down to another brand publicly like this.

Agreed. Criticism is fair sometimes, but I don't think specifically telling people to buy American-made is fair. Most of the Japanese garments I own are much more well-made than the made-in-USA ones.

[kiya]

10 minutes ago, busterthehuman said:

Agreed. Criticism is fair sometimes, but I don't think specifically telling people to buy American-made is fair. Most of the Japanese garments I own are much more well-made than the made-in-USA ones.

If you want to compare apples to apples...

 

 

 

Left Field's is $250 directly from the brand (it's showing in Pesos because I'm in Mexico).

Iron Heart's is $170 USD buying it directly from the brand.  Looks like Iron Heart's is $80 USD less when purchased directly from the brand making the shirt.

 

Edited September 7, 2023 by kiya

[busterthehuman]

2 minutes ago, kiya said:

If you want to compare apples to apples...

 

 

 

Left Field's is $250 directly from the brand (it's showing in Pesos because I'm in Mexico).

Iron Heart's is $170 USD buying it directly from the brand.  Looks like Iron Heart's is $80 USD less when purchased directly from the brand making the shirt.

 

 

Even more reason to buy the Iron Heart, then. Unsure as to why they'd pick this bone in the first place knowing they'd be charging more hahah. Buying USA-made is nice, especially if you live here, to support a local artisan(s) and economy, but that isn't realistic if you're on a budget or want a specific garment. 

[julian-wolf]

For what it’s worth, most of Left Field’s [potential] customer base doesn’t have access to Iron Heart at the domestic price, so that comparison doesn’t seem very relevant to the point they’re making—if anything, it sort of seems to play even more into their rhetoric that buying IH on the international market is a bad deal

Edited September 8, 2023 by julian-wolf

[youngofthesoonest]

I don’t think it’s the same fabric unless left field is missing some info or getting some wrong. Iron heart’s shirt was a 10oz indigo dyed selvedge flannel while left field’s is 13oz with no other details mentioned.

 it just seems like such a random post to me…do they think they’re losing a lot of market share to iron heart that they felt strong enough to post that? I get that iron heart is popular and expensive so there are huge fans and huge haters alike. I’m used to seeing people take their sides all over the internet but it’s weird to see a brand do it publicly. Also anytime i hear brands do the whole “we make the same thing but cheaper” thing, it gives me flashbacks of the great kickstarter denim companies gold rush era. 

Edited September 8, 2023 by youngofthesoonest

[mlwdp]

Delete

Edited September 8, 2023 by mlwdp

[ColonelAngus]

15 hours ago, Broark said:

Left Field isn't pulling any punches. Fabric looks identical to the one IH used a couple years ago.

Freenote Cloth did a shirt with similar fabric as well right after IH’s.

Either way, I didn’t take LF’s comment as a smear against IH, but more of a highlight of ‘we make our stuff in the USA and for less than other brands’ 3sixteen seemed to pride themselves on being MiUSA but have shifted production of some of their items overseas. Not gonna lie, that kinda bothered me but they had their reasons. Anyway, my two cents. 

[AlientoyWorkmachine]

That’s a good example. I mostly wear mij things at this point, and I was never interested in 3sixteen, but once they outsourced any smidge of a reason left to consider was gone. 
I used to wear Raleigh years ago (before the pricing got actually insane), and it was primarily because they were really well made jeans that I could go see being made, and from white oak to the shop the entire cycle of production was pretty local. That superseded anything else. Controversial - but they were also made better than quite a few pairs of MIJ jeans I’ve had over the years, maybe just not with the sorts of details people would like. 

If IH flannels would cost me 365 to 550 (!!) for their 14 oz being in the US but they are half that if my address is in Mexico that’s even more a turn off, not that they’re losing a customer in me anyways. 
 

Anyways, a little shit talking I think is fine.  At least a few of us above have said things more shit talky than that IG post, I know that!  

[Broark]

8 hours ago, youngofthesoonest said:

I don’t think it’s the same fabric unless left field is missing some info or getting some wrong. Iron heart’s shirt was a 10oz indigo dyed selvedge flannel while left field’s is 13oz with no other details mentioned.

Agreed, don't think it's the same exact fabric, but it's pretty clear where the inspiration came from given the fact that they called IH out directly.
I remember another brand (maybe RGT?) doing a flannel a few years back that was nearly identical after IH made the same colorway. But they didn't ever call out IH in this fashion.

I think the call-out is a little corny, especially when the product you're touting as "better than the competition" is almost a direct knock-off of what the competition made 5+ years ago.
Generally I'm in the camp of letting your product speak for itself. So, if you want to make a product that's better than IH, do it.
And maybe do it with some originality instead of copying the competitor's design. This is coming from someone who isn't interested in IH in the slightest.

[Maynard Friedman]

I don’t think it’s criticising IH. It’s using their fabric as a yardstick for quality but suggesting LF has better cuts for western body types and is MiA and cheaper. You can take all advertising with a pinch of salt but it gives you a comparison to help make a choice.

[AlientoyWorkmachine]

1 hour ago, Broark said:

Agreed, don't think it's the same exact fabric, but it's pretty clear where the inspiration came from given the fact that they called IH out directly.
I remember another brand (maybe RGT?) doing a flannel a few years back that was nearly identical after IH made the same colorway. But they didn't ever call out IH in this fashion.

I think the call-out is a little corny, especially when the product you're touting as "better than the competition" is almost a direct knock-off of what the competition made 5+ years ago.
Generally I'm in the camp of letting your product speak for itself. So, if you want to make a product that's better than IH, do it.
And maybe do it with some originality instead of copying the competitor's design. This is coming from someone who isn't interested in IH in the slightest.

But most of this forum is based off of the most exactingly direct knockoffs possible lol.

Also, I’d argue a different cut makes it a different product - something we seem to take for granted with jeans at least. Idk if the cut would work better for me but if I wore flannels I’d give it a look bc I have broader shoulders/chest that pretty much nothing Japanese but boxy repros or stretchy fabrics work with. 

Ok, I’ll move on now. 

[shredwin_206]

Left Field is cool and always fly under the radar. 
Love that a lot of their goods are made here in the USA. 
Also their discount they offer for us union/tradesmen/tradeswoman is very much appreciated. 

[Broark]

3 minutes ago, AlientoyWorkmachine said:

But most of this forum is based off of the most exactingly direct knockoffs possible lol.

Apples and oranges.
You're talking about historical repros where the original company offers nothing in a similar vein today (sure they try with LVC, but that's not their bread and butter and clearly that line is dying) vs. an instance of a modern brand copying a modern design quite directly.

But when the brand says "our shirt is better than IH" while delivering a product that looks nearly identical to the one that the competition they're calling out designed themselves? Pretty weak.
There's bound to be overlap since it's a flannel, but the way that they're going about it to me is cheesy. Just let your product speak for itself if it's that much better.

[julian-wolf]

This whole conversation would feel a lot different if the brand being called out was one that hadn’t built so much of their whole ethos on being ~the best~ (in whatever long list of poorly-defined, unverifiable ways).

The Iron Heart forum is chock full of posts implicitly saying the same thing as Left Field is saying here. Claiming to be good doesn’t make any statement about the competitors, but claiming to be the best sure does, and that’s kinda Iron Heart’s thing—or so their following would lead you to believe. Honestly, I’d really like to see more posts publicly calling out Iron Heart’s quality to [international market] price ratio, which seems pretty abysmal. Sure, seeing it come straight from a potential competitor maybe isn’t the classiest option, but it feels less icky seeing them call out IH than it would almost any other brand.

Edited September 8, 2023 by julian-wolf

[chicote]

- off topic

 

Edited September 8, 2023 by chicote

[youngofthesoonest]

[Maynard Friedman]

Perhaps Carlsberg should start making jeans?

[Dr_Heech]

1 hour ago, Maynard Friedman said:

Should Carlsberg start making jeans?

... Probably 

Fixed that for you 

[Maynard Friedman]

2 hours ago, chicote said:

- off topic

 

Nothing’s off topic in this thread!

[Geeman]

Sort of agree with Julian that IH do set themselves up for this kinda comparison. 

I own a couple IH pieces, (bought below UK retail)  happy with them,  but their prices do prevent me even really browsing the site.

I mean how good can 1 flannel shirt get after a certain point?? ( we had a similar discussion on tshirts)

TBF jeans wise the UK pricing isn't to far from other MIJ brands brought here so if the fit worked (and could live with the arcs) they would be an option 

[MJF9]

1 minute ago, Maynard Friedman said:

Nothing’s off topic in this thread!

Definitely... you can just raise something from left field

[AlientoyWorkmachine]

3 hours ago, Broark said:

Apples and oranges.
You're talking about historical repros where the original company offers nothing in a similar vein today (sure they try with LVC, but that's not their bread and butter and clearly that line is dying) vs. an instance of a modern brand copying a modern design quite directly.

But when the brand says "our shirt is better than IH" while delivering a product that looks nearly identical to the one that the competition they're calling out designed themselves? Pretty weak.
There's bound to be overlap since it's a flannel, but the way that they're going about it to me is cheesy. Just let your product speak for itself if it's that much better.

I get it, and I respect your take, I just don’t agree it’s apples and oranges.
 

It’s denim and flannel, sure, but the degree of difference between LVC and Warehouse or pick your repro overall probably is no greater or if it is. We’re talking cotton threads vs poly, provenance, and slight shades and textures of indigo - more or less - and then a lot of less tangible things that may or may not matter to some degree to most people. Yea we can argue about how big these differences to us are personally, but to most they’re marginal.  A flannel, to my mind, is about as original as jeans, or as ubiquitous. IH markets themselves with heavy weight yes but they didn’t invent such a thing. This is all part of an industry that does nothing new, and doesn’t even claim or want to, it only makes little tweaks they think are better. LF is doing that same thing. And if the cut fits a western body, well that’s no copy at all imo. It’s the difference between my having an option to have a sleeve length that works with chest that doesn’t or something that actually I can actually wear.
 

Julian and Edwin have a points I’m sympathetic with as well though, given the brand reps of these two I’m more inclined towards LF anyways. 

[rbeck]

Never read it as criticism, just a comparison in quality. To say your product is the same quality as someone else's means you think highly of their products' quality. Seems like praise to me.

Also, different cut, different product. Not a copy if it uses similar fabric. Also flannels are so ubiquitous that to claim someone is ripping off someone else's design is goofy unless it's some sort of wild design. 

Whole thing seems like looking for a problem where there isn't one. But I'm a huge LF fan, so maybe I'm biased. 

[Duke Mantee]

I don’t get why they would do this - surely it damages your reputation to make something as bad as IH?

Edited September 8, 2023 by Duke Mantee

[Maynard Friedman]

Duke’s belts - better than Iron Heart and made in Scotchland for Irn-Bru waists, no idea on price though!

[ColonelAngus]

3 hours ago, Geeman said:

Sort of agree with Julian that IH do set themselves up for this kinda comparison. 

I own a couple IH pieces, (bought below UK retail)  happy with them,  but their prices do prevent me even really browsing the site.

I mean how good can 1 flannel shirt get after a certain point??

I’m a fan of IH and own many flannels & jackets from them. Some I paid full price for and others I bought on sale. I do like how warm the flannels are in the winter, so they’ve served me well. 
 

Price will always be subjective and a bit of a sticking point for consumers. To give credit where credit is due, IHUK did help bring more attention to the brand internationally, as well as introduced items that IH Japan wouldn’t have made otherwise. It’s a business so at the end of the day IHUK has to make money. As such, things like the cost of labor to make IH clothing, inflation, shipping, taxes, etc, etc, have necessitated the rise in prices. I don’t like it and I’m pretty sure no one at IH likes it either. 

With that said, if the prices get any higher I’ll likely stop buying their stuff. It’s not that I can’t afford a $360 flannel shirt, it’s the principle of it all. $360 is a car payment, or baseball gear for my son, or god knows what other things I may need or want. I’ve started buying UES flannels because I like the quality/coloways and buying direct from them saves me $100-200 depending on which Western retailer you normally buy it from. I’m basically getting 2 UES flannels for the price of 1 IH flannel with money leftover. 
 
I think the only pet peeve of mine is how I’m now seeing more celebrities wearing denim brands that some of us like, like IH or Rogue Territory. I mean, they can certainly afford this stuff but now it feels like I’m all dressed up for senior prom and the popular kid is wearing the exact same outfit lol. I know it sounds pretty douchey to say but these brands don’t feel as special as before.