Denim Blunders, Reflections and General Nonsense.

[unders]

Nemo, I'm shocked! You're normally quite politically correct but you've just gone and outed at least two subcultures as 'weirdos'.

Shame on you.

[Blue Nemo]

Nemo, I'm shocked! You're normally quite politically correct but you've just gone and outed at least two subcultures as 'weirdos'.

Shame on you.

I can't tell if you're serious or ironic. It was my intention, and I checked the sentence again, to name me (and also 'us' if you don't mind) as weirdos too, just another kind of breed. And thus, set apart ;-) Edited September 9, 2015 by Blue Nemo

[unders]

No danger mate, t'was a joke.

[Blue Nemo]

Got me then, you joker! :-D

[DhaDha]

hey i think so yes, wanna grab a pint?

 

I'll ping you a PM a day or so before!

 

sounds good man. maybe we could do a bangkok meet up, if there are enough people here. 

[Chubacca]

Going to Pronto would be like dying and going to denim heaven, no?

[Geeman]

Going to Pronto would be like dying and going to denim heaven, no?

The highlight of my trip to BKK but don't tell the Mrs that!

[FreeCharlesManson]

Going to Pronto would be like dying and going to denim heaven, no?

i had a dream about going to pronto, it started in some sort of mall with the entrance looking like some sort of abercromie/garage crap but the inside was actually outside it was beautiful it was in the middle of the water with off white granite for the floor/ display tables. i was looking at the ProntoXPBJ with the orange weft. probably one of my favourite dreams  

[DhaDha]

Going to Pronto would be like dying and going to denim heaven, no?

only if you have dough to spend. otherwise it's more like hell. 

[Mr-Bielby]

The new shop in EMQuartier is very nice

[kss447]

I have come to realize that none of my pants fit me that well. Even my SDAs (which are my current favorite fit) are not the best. I spent some time today and took full measurements and fit pics of most of my pants as a way to compare measurements as I decide on my next pair after my UES sizing debacle. I'm thinking that from this data I can come up with a set of ideal post-shrink/stretch measurements and go from there.

Fit pic album: http://imgur.com/a/Ujh7Z

Excuse the folding creases, most pairs have been in a box for months. Also excuse the crappy Gustin color/fades. Can't believe I wore those for like 6 months.

Measurements (inches, BiG style)

SD-103

W: 17

FR: 10

BR: 14.5

T: 12.5

K: 9

LO: 8.25

Gustin LHT

W: 17

FR: 10

BR: 14.5

T: 12.25

K: 8.25

LO: 7.375

RgT Camo

W: 17

FR: 10.5

BR: 14.75

T: 12.75

K: 8.5

LO: 7.75

Levi's Jorts

W: 16.5

FR: 9.875

BR: 14.75

T: 12.75

LO: 9.75

The jorts fit the best in the waist at a ~10" rise. SDAs fit the best in the thighs/hips, slightly big in the knée but a nicely sized LO. The RgT are a little too big in every way, and the Gustins are still comfy in the thigh but way too much taper. So, my ideal post-shrink/stretch measurements based on the pairs I have now would be approximately as follows. However, if I buy a pair with a higher rise I will definitely have to reduce the waist to ~16" or maybe less, depending.

Ideal

W: 16.5

FR: 10

BR: 14.5

T: 12.25-12.5

K: 8.25-8.5

LO: 8-8.5

What do you guys think? Is my thought process sound? I didn't realize how much of a nooby I was with respect to sizing. I will have to follow this same process for my shirts soon.

[SuperJackle]

I think that's about the measurements of a strike gold 1105, iirc.

Edited September 28, 2015 by SuperJackle

[bradl]

The 1101 fits the bill pretty well, back rise is longer than what you posted but don't think that's a bad thing.

[kss447]

Actually, Fullcount is the main brand I have been eyeing lately. I have been scouring measurement tables and read through the whole Fullcount thread, trying to decide between the 1101 or 0105 cut.

According to BiG's charts, I think I would be a size 31 in the 1101. I'm afraid of the 7.5" hem but since I have stubby legs, my inseam is only 29-30" and thus the leg opening should be larger on my pair.

[bradl]

Ahh I was thinking the 32 for you tbh

[kss447]

I'm afraid of the waist. My RgT have a 10.5" rise with a 17" waist and I can easily fit 1 or squeeze 2 fingers in my waistand on the hip. If I have an extra inch of rise, wouldn't a 16.5" waistband be too large?

[tion4->]

kss447, given your UES 'challenges' I thought I'd chime in! I couldn't decide between the UES 400T and the FC1101, so I got both  ...I put away the FC for a later date. I got a 33 in the UES and 32 in the FC. 

 

Fit is quite similar, but the UES has a bit more generous top block, bit wider knee and has a bit more taper. The FC is a straighter fit for me (30" inseam), with a knee of 8.6" and hem of 8.2".

 

If you go with FC1101, go size 31. Looks like you might have a tendency to go one size too big? For the FC, if you want a final waist of 16.5", make sure it is 15.5" post soak max. That Zimbabwe cotton will stretch right back out to pre-soak in the waist. 

[kss447]

Thanks for the input Tion! Don't worry, I will most likely end up doing the same and ordering both, ha.

I think you are correct that I have been ordering a size too big. I have lost some weight and I think I'm still overestimating my size.

Sorry to ask you this again, but would you mind posting full measurements of your 1101s? It'll be nice to have a real world example.

[tion4->]

Yeah no prob. Maybe I'll post that over in the FC thread as opposed to blunders.

[beautiful_FrEaK]

Guys, what’s your take on „Flagship Denim“?

 

I really like brands that have a kind of flagship denim, like Studio d’Artisan’s 15oz RHT denim, Flathead’s Pioneer denim, Full Count’s 13,7oz denim or Ironheart’s 21oz denim.

 

To me, it adds another level to the brand. Something that says: “This is our denim and we believe in itâ€. Of course all the brands I mentioned offer other denims in their line-up but to me the ones I named are their flagship denims.

Other example would be Evisu or Denime. Both offer their “flagship premium denimâ€. The No.1 and the XX denim. But then they also offer a cheaper option (No.2 and Real Basic).

 

I think most of the Japanese brands we talk about have their flagship denim, offer it on their main cuts and then branch out from that starting point.

 

IMO,an exception would be Samurai as I couldn’t tell you what their flagship denim would be. The Texas Cotton denim? The Zero denim? Or their 19oz denim?

Also Warehouse. Although my feeling is, that the Banner Denim might become their flagship denim but other please feel free to correct me.

 

 

On the other hand there are brands like TCB or Resolute, where the denim is coupled with the fit. You want the ‘60s denim? Get the ‘60s cut. While this is truer to the original and more repro-like, sometimes it is sad as you can’t get your hands on your desired denim in the fit that is right for you.

 

So give me your opinions about the flagship denims from all the different brands we talk about here.

[Max Power]

You could narrow it down to this: there's mainly two things that make a pair of jeans desirable. The cut and the fabric.

 

Just speaking for sales, the best things would be to offer a very broad spectrum of fit & fabric to maximize sales. Iron heart & also Samurai did this the last years in perfection. Add limited edition cuts or fabrics and you get all the collectors to buy jeans they don't need right now.

 

 

But as all these new cuts and fabrics come with high cost of development, small Lots that add to the production cost and the uncertanity of how they end up shrunken to size, only big players might afford to do that.

 

That topic also reminds me of Whisky. There once was a discussion, how you can create a certain fanbase for a brand. Almost each distillers has their signature or most recognized malt, let's say the Laphroaig 10. The next step in marketing would be to offer a broader range, so that fans of that signature malt (that they know from a bar for example) spend their money on other alterations. Usually they do bottlings with older Age or different cask types. This creates collectors and fanboys that only buy stuff from that disitllery for enormous prices (see Ardbeg). IMO Samurai but also the limited Editions of SDA Play that part in the denim world.

 

And then there's the guys from UES, that just do one great denim that is known to fade beautiful. No Hype, no fuzz, just a decent pair of Jeans.

 

Take FH: they have the same denim is a lot of cuts - you chan choose the best one for you, but will most likely not get a couple of different cuts once you know what you're after. There's mostly only one type of fit that suits people.

 

I think that's a nice change from all the limited and variating stuff, that is way more "Fashion" than the raw denim world should be.

Edited October 27, 2015 by Max Power

[beautiful_FrEaK]

Thanks for the digression to the world of whisky. It is a good example!

 

And I agree with you about UES. They use denim from which they are so convinced that they don’t want/need to offer a big selection of denims. Eternal is similar. They basically have that 1 denim we see around here on their different models and then they add an Anniversary model with special denim.

 

I like the approach to spice things up with some special models. Unique mix of denim and cut or better a perfected cut in a new and unique denim. Of course this can get out of hand with the release of 5-10 special models every year like Samurai is doing it.

Then I prefer the approach of old Denime or Full Count. Offer your standard range and add 1 unique pair every now and then. Like Full Count’s annually WW2 models or Denime’s Anniversary models with next to nothing in between.

Although Full Count adds more cuts and denim lately. Still on a slower pace than Samurai or Ironheart but maybe FC just does less advertisement so it doesn’t attract attention.

[Maynard Friedman]

Some more flagship denims available in different cuts for you b_F:

- Warehouse 1000XX (usually 14oz)

- Momotaro 15.7oz vintage label

- Ande Whall 13.5oz mainline

- PBJ 14oz

- RJB 13.75 oz

[JohnM]

Tilmann,

 

I like the idea of balance -- having a standard denim that the company believes in and offering a "unique pair every now and then", as you say.

 

Too many options and it gets confusing, inching toward pure fashion and flooding the market with an array of insignificant variations.  No options or never offering anything special isn't good either -- suggesting a commodity where the owner has lost interest.

 

That said, this may be the golden age of denim.  We get to choose from an array of manufacturers with different approaches.  I like the simplicity of UES's approach, as Flo says, but it's also fun to figure out what your favorite denim is from a particular manufacturer and choose the cut you like (e.g., IH Beatle Buster in 18 oz. and Samurai 500-OG 16 oz.).

 

John

[denihilist]

In terms of a Golden Age, I worry that what we're seeing with brands like Samurai adding more and more novelty (limited edition cuts/denim) that we're actually in the final years and manufacturers are forced to create demand through artificial means rather than new folks stumbling into raw denim and getting hooked.  Most of the kids I see on the street are wearing what I like to call Leisure Ninja: sweat pants or similar with a drop crotch and serious taper to a scrunchee opening. I get that it's comfortable but to my eyes you look like you shop at Baby Gap.

[itsbenhere]

I'm with you T, I love the idea of a flagship denim. I love that it basically is an easy way of saying, this is what our brand is... take it or leave it. I like it a lot more then a flagship denim is offered in many cuts (flat head comes to mind) than a bunch of different denim in different cuts (many of which won't work for me). 

 

I agree with you denihilist, just because we may like certain brands, it doesn't mean they're immune to being swayed by popular opinion. That's why I choose to support brands that I personally feel really do it right, and haven't sold out.

[chicote]

Denihilist, that's an interesting point. I suppose it's especially difficult to determine the popularity of (mostly) Japanese denim as a relatively niche thing, because when was it not a niche thing? In the 90s, when the Osaka 5 first significantly breached an overseas market? In 2004, when Jay-Z was rocking Evisus? In years following, when raw denim started being carried in malls? Over the past few years, when hundreds of North American and European raw denim companies came onto the scene, and arguably bolstered the legitimacy of old Japanese brands in the process? I think that the introduction of the Internet and the rise of men's fashion has done a lot to boost the high-end denim industry as a whole, but I also read last year that sales of jeans were at an all-time low (this isn't the article I was thinking of, but provides similar data: http://www.nbcnews.com/business/consumer/denim-real-danger-going-out-fashion-n176211). So, who knows. I don't want denim companies to go in the slim-tapered super-stretch irregular weave shop collaboration direction they've been heading towards, but companies do have to match the demands of the market. It'd be interesting to gather production data from companies and sales data from stores and figure out something more quantitative.

[TheIntelligentHoodwinker]

 In 2004, when Jay-Z was rocking Evisus?

 

Jay-Z is a Samurai man.

 

[Coolguyzack]

I have come to realize that none of my pants fit me that well. 

 

Your body type seems similar to mine. I found what made me most dissatisfied with my pants was the rise. I couldn't fathom why my nuts were feeling squanched all the time, until I realized I spent every other minute hiking up my pants as far as they'd go.

 

I think whatever brand/cut you go for, you should consider a higher rise maybe around 11"-11.5"

Just make sure to account for the waistband/shrinkage at the higher part of your waist where they'll sit, if you plan to go that route.

[DhaDha]

with product like raw denim, where primary pursuit is to wear the same pair of pants for more than a few months (to years) at times, moving unit seems difficult unless you have variations. this is why i think there is a surplus of limited edition on the market now. few years back i thought there wasn't many limited edition stuff but now there isn't a single month where some brand somewhere doesn't release '120 pairs worldwide ever'. i also read somewhere that in domestic Japanese market the saturation point has been reached, and brands like Sugar Cane, who used to produce a lot of novelty but ultimately really nice jeans (40300,40400,40500, green tea, mud dye, rainbow core) shrunk back and just concentrate on core products since there is no more margin to be made. sad really but true. 

 

In term of popularity and sales though, at least as far as Thailand and SEAsia is concern, i feel that the market surplus will shift here, as the western (and japan) market seems stable as they are. these days in downtown bangkok everyone and anyone seems to be wearing denim. Pronto has no less than 7 shops in Bangkok alone, and not counting other smaller joints which are popping up like mushroom. the sub culture in which 10 years ago was confined to vintage-nerds and japanese repro spilled out into the mainstream and it seems to market gobbles it up rather readily. But the danger here is the domination of the market by a few well known brands. since the Thai market is essentially a follow-the-leader market, people buys into the trend and submit to the big names like Flat Head, iron Heart, Pure Blue Japan, etc. without branching out into other weird and wonderful brands you find elsewhere. essentially when you walk down the street all you see is either flat head and iron heart, with a few other japanese brands in between.