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Denim Blunders, Reflections and General Nonsense.

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I agree the arms look long and loose. 

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I am not a fashionista, I am just a guy who loves looking at Vintage WWII movies and photos. My guess is about one Sailor out of 10 was issued an N-1 that fit him as the current trend goes. The goal was to keep freezing seawater and wind and propwash from hitting exposed sections of your wrist because your sleeves were too short when you performed actual topside work. A little extra roominess meant more warm air trapped in the extra space.

https://www.thefedoralounge.com/threads/n-1-deck-jacket-ww2-carriers-photos-help.91221/

I think its a great jacket and I can't see a Large fitting better. Your shoulders are wide and most of us guys do get larger as we get older. (EDIT: I re-read that you are currently losing weight so maybe this won't hold true for you.)

As someone mentioned, you could have the sleeves tailored IF wearing it does not resolve the problem. 

What is your option if the store will not exchange it? List it on Grailed for a year until you finally accept a lowball offer to recoup some cash? Or just wear it proud. Its a great jacket with a great history.

Here is Paul Newman in a deck jacket. This is how guys wore them. Loose.

 

 

IMG_1678.JPG

Edited by Pedro

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@mlwdp my first impression is it's too big all around. Sleeves look too bulky and too long, shoulders look OK but body looks too voluminous. But it's your call - if you like the fit and look then that's what matters. If you just wanna make it work 'cuz you can't return it and you'd rather have a size smaller, then take the hit and move it for whatever you can, and get another one. It's part of this game we're playing - I've been burned several times by miss-sizing and had to take a hit for it. I think at this level we're playing it, if you're not 100% happy with it, don't keep it. We're not talking about a $100 Carhartt coat that you'd bet to sh!t and throw away in a year or 2. 

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I know it’s a bit more of a modern interpretation but I would highly recommend the ironheart n1 over any repro version. Their cuts are more in line with a modern aesthetic. I am 6’0” 195lbs broad shoulders big chest and always have trouble getting shirts from these Japanese companies to fit. Shoulders, chest, and sleeves in large are usually too small and body / length in XL is usually too big. Size large in the ironheart n1 fits me great.
 

I think you’re a bit shorter than me but you’ll probably have better luck getting ironheart to fit. You may still need to tailor the sleeve length but I think the rest of the body and sleeve volume will be more to your liking. 

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@mpukas

Interesting take. I sorta think these military surplus type jackets will fall out of fashion in a few years and most of the guys that bought them will be onto the next "thing". If its true that guys will be holding and wearing these for more than a few years then why not get leather? A leather jacket from Aero is always in fashion...unless you are dating a Vegan.

 

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5 hours ago, Quoise1203 said:

I know it’s a bit more of a modern interpretation but I would highly recommend the ironheart n1 over any repro version.

One thing IH got right in their current iteration is that their pockets are lined. My Freewheeler N-1 has unlined hand warmer pockets and they don't warm the hands as much as their name would suggest...

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6 hours ago, Pedro said:

@mpukas

Interesting take. I sorta think these military surplus type jackets will fall out of fashion in a few years and most of the guys that bought them will be onto the next "thing". If its true that guys will be holding and wearing these for more than a few years then why not get leather? A leather jacket from Aero is always in fashion...unless you are dating a Vegan.

 

From my experience clothing enthusiasts (from the US and Japan) like yourself said this in 2002, 2008, 2012, and 2015... That's about 20 years of talk of "this trend will end in X years.." yet it never happened.  

There are certain things which will most probably not fall out of fashion for quite some time and I believe mid 20th century military and denim/chambray based fashions is one of those things. 

Edited by kiya

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13 hours ago, Pedro said:

 

Interesting take. I sorta think these military surplus type jackets will fall out of fashion in a few years and most of the guys that bought them will be onto the next "thing". If its true that guys will be holding and wearing these for more than a few years then why not get leather? A leather jacket from Aero is always in fashion...unless you are dating a Vegan.

 

7 hours ago, kiya said:

From my experience clothing enthusiasts (from the US and Japan) like yourself said this in 2002, 2008, 2012, and 2015... That's about 20 years of talk of "this trend will end in X years.." yet it never happened.  

There are certain things which will most probably not fall out of fashion for quite some time and I believe mid 20th century military and denim/chambray based fashions is one of those things. 

Agree 100% w/ what Kiya said.

TFH isn't in trouble because their clothing has gone out of style or favor, as others have said better than I, it's their business model and being too diversified and not focused. That why I think brands like IH, SDA, not to exclude others, will survive - it's not about repro (although that will always survive as well, with ups and downs in trends) it's about style & quality that is enduring and timeless. Style that transcends trends. Reading and anticipating what customers want and delivering beyond expectations. In limited quantities to insure sell-out. 

Re: fit of @mlwdp jacket, just because service personnel were issued ill-fitting garments because that's what was available, doesn't mean we have to wear ill-fitting garments today. If you're not happy with the way you're clothes fit and look on you, what's the point? 

Some people can pull things off the no one else can. Guys like Paul Newman and James Dean made the ordinary look extraordinary. How and why will be pondered forever. My theory is in part that clothes look better on slimmer frames. Period. Clothes look better on runway models because the models are skinny. They're skinny for a reason - to make the clothes look good. The same clothes don't look  good on fat fashion models. Over-sized clothes on bigger, husky, fatter guys just don't look good. For guys that are anything other than lean, lanky and thin - with a keen sense of style, sizing correctly looks infinitely better. 

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Interesting observations. As a tall, thin guy, I've been surprised by how good it looks when I wear a size bigger in shirts/tops, or a straight-fit jean, compared to the slimmer ones I used to wear that just made me look lanky.

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14 hours ago, Pedro said:

@mpukas

Interesting take. I sorta think these military surplus type jackets will fall out of fashion in a few years and most of the guys that bought them will be onto the next "thing". If its true that guys will be holding and wearing these for more than a few years then why not get leather? A leather jacket from Aero is always in fashion...unless you are dating a Vegan.

 

Seems like a weird take. 

I feel like military type jackets tend to go into style frequently and are timeless designs. A lot of people won't recognize a M-65 or N1 inspired piece but will still like it. 

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There will always be the new "next thing" but I think the classics will always ring true with us. Or at least for me.

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interesting bits of discussion... going back to @mlwdp I think a size up would definitely look more flattering, but an XL may be more functional. I would size down personally.

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12 hours ago, kiya said:

From my experience clothing enthusiasts (from the US and Japan) like yourself said this in 2002, 2008, 2012, and 2015... That's about 20 years of talk of "this trend will end in X years.." yet it never happened.  

There are certain things which will most probably not fall out of fashion for quite some time and I believe mid 20th century military and denim/chambray based fashions is one of those things. 

Kiya, you obviously know far more about these things than myself but how many N-1 jackets do all the guys here have in their closet right now and how many years have they owned them? I am getting quite alot of pushback for my post so lets see an inventory list. Maybe it is very common to see USN stencils in Europe & JP the past 30 years, I really don't know; however, it is not common in the US except for a few firearm enthusiasts I know who wear fatigues to the range.

I have not seen military WW2 era fatigues or deck jackets worn around town since the early 1980's and those were bought from military surplus Because they were cheap and functional. I do see aviator jackets and many classic leather jackets and Aero leathers has sold far more such gems over the years than any N-1 or similar and this N-1 is not cheap. 

I have great admiration for the N-1 and other era-specific military wear. I am thrilled that the demand is now enough to support the efforts of Buzz Ricksons and others who offer such researched and quality mil-spec clothing.

Now specific to this N-1. It is often found with Thinsulate faux alpaca and wool. I don't know which lining the XL jacket has which is the source of this discussion. If its Thinsualte, then get it wet. The cotton grossgrain "Jungle Cloth" will shrink a bit and conform. As I said earlier, I don't know much about fashion. I don't really care about fashion. I happen to have grown up a pudgy kid nicknamed Gordito wearing "Irregular" Levis STF and t-shirts and jeans jackets. I wore military surplus chinos. The majority of these were hand-me-downs and the others were bought too big by my mother who was economy minded and knew I would "grow into them". These are still the clothes I feel comfortable in 45 years later. 

So, hey, I don't know fashion and I have a warped view that clothes are supposed to fit loose. I also found this loose fit was much better to work in because all the work I ever had was hard physical work that required mobility. The jackets I own have a bi-swing back OR they are a size larger so they are not restrictive when I work. Maybe thats why the XL jacket does not look too big IMO. The wearer has broad shoulders for his height, he is going to have to compromise somehow. Is it longer, looser arms so the shoulders fit OR tightness through the shoulders and torso so his cuffs break at his wrist. Thats also why the guys these jackets were orignally issued to also wore them loose.  (They were not aviators with snug fitting leather jackets...they were hustling on the deck. Have many of you guys been in the military? Do you recall being given several minutes to try on various size clothing until you found just the right "fit"? WW2 sailors were shuffled through a warehouse and grabbed the top clothing item on the stack in their size.) 

I guess I don't understand why guys want to have authentic, detailed, clothing down to the zippers used but they don't attempt to wear the very same clothing as it was worn at the time. I guess that is where the fashion part of this conversation comes into play...and why I am the last guy anyone wants to ask if something fits correctly....

;-)

 

Edited by Pedro

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6 hours ago, SmokeStackLightning said:

Seems like a weird take. 

I feel like military type jackets tend to go into style frequently and are timeless designs. A lot of people won't recognize a M-65 or N1 inspired piece but will still like it. 

Go into style frequently? The last time an M-65 or M-51 was in style was in the movie, "Serpico". For the 40 years since then the only guys wearing one is Woody Allen and card carrying members of the local militia...Lol

 I agree with you that an Aviator A-2 or A-3 are a timeless design assuming we are talking leather and go into style frequently. In fact, they never go out of style IMO.

But I am speaking about cloth fatigue style M-65 or an N-1 with USN stenciled on it. When was the last time this jacket was in style? Serious question. How many do you own? Has anyone worn an N-1 each year for the past 15 years? Not uncommon with a leather jacket from the same era.

Lets face it, Buzz Rickson lists the N-1 for a very hefty price and for just a bit more, a guy can get an Aero leather jacket. The leather jacket can be worn for just about any occasion I can think of but I don't see the same versatility with a  "Jungle Cloth"  N-1.

 But I will say that Pittsburgh is a blue-collar town and bitterly cold in the winter and possibly a demographic where Army/Navy Surplus still thrives. I kind of picture guys in M-65s with a grey hooded sweatshirt underneath waiting in line for a call out at the Union Hall.

Edited by Pedro

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23 hours ago, Pedro said:

@mpukas

Interesting take. I sorta think these military surplus type jackets will fall out of fashion in a few years and most of the guys that bought them will be onto the next "thing". If its true that guys will be holding and wearing these for more than a few years then why not get leather? A leather jacket from Aero is always in fashion...unless you are dating a Vegan.

 

 

17 hours ago, kiya said:

From my experience clothing enthusiasts (from the US and Japan) like yourself said this in 2002, 2008, 2012, and 2015... That's about 20 years of talk of "this trend will end in X years.." yet it never happened.  

There are certain things which will most probably not fall out of fashion for quite some time and I believe mid 20th century military and denim/chambray based fashions is one of those things. 

Kiya,

Reading your response more closely, I meant to say this N-1 with stencil USN will fall out of fashion in a few years. I have not seen this N-1 worn out on the town in the US since the 70's and don't recall it being worn even in Hollywood movies depicting a more recent era. 

Maybe that is different in JP where you say it re-emerged in 2002, 2008, 2012, and  2015 (which appears to indicate that the trend did end in the intervenng years...which was my point).

The point of my "talk" was the leather jackets of this same WWII era don't fall out of fashion in ANY year. 

I am heartened to hear your professional opinion that this era of clothing will not fall out of fashion for many years. Hopefully that means this great clothing will continue to be available.

EDIT:

OK, I think it might have been worn in the classic, "True Romance", but what era did that depict? The 80's?

Edited by Pedro

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Women and men both wear fatigue inspired coats and shirts almost annually and have for as long as I can remember paying attention to fashion.

Seriously Polo, American Eagle and Abercrombie and Fitch release military style jackets every year, and have since the mid 2000's. A lot of other brands too. I have multiple military jackets, with my very favorite being a mid 1990's tree bark camouflage I wear duck hunting. I refuse to wear any insignia what so ever on my jackets, insignia and patches are less commonly seen on people. 

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And good luck wearing a leather jacket in Pennsylvania all winter. Guys only wear leather when their trying to dress up or are out to dinner for instance. 

Carhart is the most popular brand for men's jackets near me by a long shot though. I wear one on jobsites, and their bibs. But nobody is trying to be fashionable at a steel mill or paper mill either.

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On 11/17/2019 at 11:34 PM, mpukas said:

 

Agree 100% w/ what Kiya said.

TFH isn't in trouble because their clothing has gone out of style or favor, as others have said better than I, it's their business model and being too diversified and not focused. That why I think brands like IH, SDA, not to exclude others, will survive - it's not about repro (although that will always survive as well, with ups and downs in trends) it's about style & quality that is enduring and timeless. Style that transcends trends. Reading and anticipating what customers want and delivering beyond expectations. In limited quantities to insure sell-out. 

Re: fit of @mlwdp jacket, just because service personnel were issued ill-fitting garments because that's what was available, doesn't mean we have to wear ill-fitting garments today. If you're not happy with the way you're clothes fit and look on you, what's the point? 

Some people can pull things off the no one else can. Guys like Paul Newman and James Dean made the ordinary look extraordinary. How and why will be pondered forever. My theory is in part that clothes look better on slimmer frames. Period. Clothes look better on runway models because the models are skinny. They're skinny for a reason - to make the clothes look good. The same clothes don't look  good on fat fashion models. Over-sized clothes on bigger, husky, fatter guys just don't look good. For guys that are anything other than lean, lanky and thin - with a keen sense of style, sizing correctly looks infinitely better. 

@mpukas

Where to even start? I admire that you are certainly a dedicated follower of fashion. Your use of terms like "Fat fashion models" and "over-sized clothes on bigger, husky, fatter guys just don't look good" suggests you are possibly what us fat guys think of as boylike. I realize you are from CO which has the lowest obesity rate in the US. Where the sound of cowboy boots striking tile has been replaced by guys with bicycle cleats. Again, nothing wrong with that. Hey, how does someone know if they are PC or a fashionista? The PC crowd now call us "People of Size" but the fashionistas still just call us fatsos....Lol

To your eye, what you see as over-sized clothing is just the way it goes for us that are not perfectly proportional in physique and so must make compromises  such as "Do I want this jacket to fit over my blue-collar shoulders even though its sleeves are long?" Or "Do I want one that is not too long in sleeve length but which I can't get zipped over my voracious belly"...Lol

As for Paul Newman, you appear to have missed the point that in that era, sleeve length of the N-1 was similar to what @mlwdp was wearing and if you looked at the link or googled other service personnel wearing an N-1 in action, the sleeve length was intentionally long for a reason. That was the way the jacket was designed to protect against the elements...for example, when raising binoculars. Now if you no longer wish to remain authentic and would rather yield to fashion over original design, then thats another story. But to me its like saying the early 501s with stovepipe legs are too billowy and need to made narrower to meet modern trends. Fashion over authenticity. They were stovepipe because they were designed to be unrestrictive during physical work. If a 1937 and earlier is to large in the leg for your personal fashion then don't modify the cut of that era, instead buy a post 1944. Those early pants were what they were and at the time were not considered "ill fitting" any more than the desirable longer sleeve was on those wearing the N-1 on the open sea.

 

Edited by Pedro

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4 hours ago, SmokeStackLightning said:

Seriously Polo, American Eagle and Abercrombie and Fitch release military style jackets every year, and have since the mid 2000's. A lot of other brands too. I have multiple military jackets, with my very favorite being a mid 1990's tree bark camouflage I wear duck hunting. I refuse to wear any insignia what so ever on my jackets, insignia and patches are less commonly seen on people. 

I am not talking fatigue inspired. I am talking repro or army/navy surplus. I failed to make that clear.

Polo, AE, A&F? I will take your word for it. Those brands seem to be more heavily marketed towards a demographic younger than me (except I have some Polo Rugby shirts left over from the 80's...man those shirts were built well). 

But wait a minute...your example of the military jacket you wear regularly as being the one you use hunting? Sorry but this statement pretty much just proved my point. In the US, cloth type military fatigues and similar have enjoyed continued popularity these past 30 years at the gun range...and while duck hunting. Not when going out into civilization. My apology if @mlwdp was buying his N-1 for duck hunting rather than daily street wear. Come to think of it, If thats the case, then it makes my point even more valid, he will need the roominess in the XL to not restrict him when he raises his shotgun to his shoulder. 

Would you categorize the black stenciling as "insignia and patches"? 

What I can't figure out is why has Aero continued to make leather repro military jackets annually for decades and yet the N-1 cloth jacket is just now being found in retailers catalogs after a lengthy hiatus? Because the N-1 and similar has not enjoyed the consumer popularity to justify remaining in the seasonal line-up for a long time while leather never goes out of style (or profitability for the maker).

I can't believe this is even open for debate.

EDIT: Tree Bark Camo is my favorite. 

Edited by Pedro

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Are folks seriously saying “people of size”? What the fuck?

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I prefer the term thicc, actually. 

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4 hours ago, SmokeStackLightning said:

And good luck wearing a leather jacket in Pennsylvania all winter. Guys only wear leather when their trying to dress up or are out to dinner for instance. 

Carhart is the most popular brand for men's jackets near me by a long shot though. I wear one on jobsites, and their bibs. But nobody is trying to be fashionable at a steel mill or paper mill either.

When was @mlwdp planning on wearing his new N-1? Perhaps I was wrong to assume he intended to wear his $400+ jacket when he planned to dress up or go out for dinner--the very same times you say leather is OK.

I did not think he intended to wear it on the jobsite. Perhaps, it is worth pointing out that prior to Carhartt's popularity in an urban jobsite rather than a farmers coatrack, a common jacket worn in occupations that had labor unions and cold weather was the military fatigue jacket because it was cheap and rugged and in abundance.

I would go further to say that it was this connection between the lower-income labor force and military surplus outerware that was responsible for its fall from popularity as Americans desired to appear more affluent***.  Ergo, the eventual popularity of higher end brand$ selling “inspired” military surplus style clothing but consumers only feeling it was acceptable to wear if it had the manufacturer label in view or had sufficient modifications to differentiate it from actual surplus.

This is in stark contrast to the “repro” products of more recent years whose value is now recognized due to their authenticity.

But I still want to know how many genuine or repro N-1’s you guys have had hanging at the front of your hallway closet each of the past 15 winters compared to vintage leather Aviator types? And that the reason was not from limited finances but rather because it was more fashionable.

***I think an additional reason the military surplus clothing fell out of favor in the US was its reminder to a very tumultuous and painful era in our history...the Vietnam War. If not, then the timing is quite a strong coincidence—the Late ‘70’s.

Edited by Pedro

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37 minutes ago, Broark said:

I prefer the term thicc, actually. 

Howabout Big boned ? ;-)

Spanish culture is different. We don't see anything wrong with body size but if a parent were to nickname their child "Gordito/Gordita" (Little Fatty) today, they would probably be charged with child abuse.

But it was a term of endearment and community for me. It was not judgemental. It was not negative and it did not result in a negative body self-image. 

EDIT:

We have a TV gossip news program even now called, "El Gordo & La Flaca". 

Sorry to veer off track but I guess body image is cultural and atleast somewhat relates to fashion.

I did not really understand how integral fashion was to this forum. I thought it was more about a love for authentic, well-crafted clothing using historical equipment and fibers and an effort to celebrate an era when fine quality was yet to be replaced by planned obsolescence. I have zero interest in fashion. I think I will bow out now...certainly much too late to do so gracefully...ja.

 

Edited by Pedro

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Just because one is into repro doesn’t mean they can’t be fashionable at the same time. If I buy a deck jacket it’s to keep me warm first and foremost, not to look like an old timey deck hand from WW2. I personally would not wear something if it didn’t look good on me. It’s like guys who wear frumpy ill fitting suits versus guys that prefer a more tailored look. 

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3 hours ago, ColonelAngus said:

Just because one is into repro doesn’t mean they can’t be fashionable at the same time. If I buy a deck jacket it’s to keep me warm first and foremost, not to look like an old timey deck hand from WW2. I personally would not wear something if it didn’t look good on me. It’s like guys who wear frumpy ill fitting suits versus guys that prefer a more tailored look. 

OK but you are putting words in my mouth to suggest I said the two were mutually exclusive. I thought he looked good in the jacket and thought I asked what are his options. You do understand that cold weather gear is the best insulator when it has a trapped air space and not when its tight? So your line of reasoning appears to support my opinion a roomy XL is a better option than a too snug L.

I did not realize that forum members now consider @mlwdp to look like he is frumpy. For the love of god, I certainly do not advocate frumpy under any circumstance and my sincere apology for failing to see he looked frumpy. I will say this, though, the jacket does not make his hips look big...which is so often a fashion concern here. ;-)

I defer to @volvo240thebest post above. He said in under 25 words what I have failed to convey in a bajillion. 

Edited by Pedro

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Satellite signal issues resulting in multiple posts.

Edited by Pedro

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I am going to go out on a limb here and guess you guys would rather have a cold head than wear the N-1 Deck Helmet because its not fashionable...Lol

9B4D8882-4822-4003-84EB-753E385DF156.jpeg

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On 11/17/2019 at 3:28 AM, Pedro said:

... why not get leather? A leather jacket from Aero is always in fashion...unless you are dating a Vegan.

My Aero jacket is a lot less warm than my N-1. A lot.

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7 hours ago, JDelage said:

My Aero jacket is a lot less warm than my N-1. A lot.

Thats a great point. I have a few Aero including the Longshoreman so I am good in cold weather.

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