Shoes that look better with age...

[youngofthesoonest]

Not an expert on this whole matter but a coupe years back, I got sucked into the whole discussion on different forums and I think it really boils down to goodyear construction requiring the use of gemming which has the potential of failing because it's usually a canvas strip and could possibly rot with long-term wear and esp if corners are cut with the canvas and cement used while stitchdown doesn't use gemming, requires more skill and time to do and thus is considered a superior construction method. I think the fears around gemming are a little exaggerated as I've had a couple goodyear welted boots that have not failed after years of wear and haven't needed to do more than resole them but then again, I'm not exactly using the boots for anything more than walking around a lot. Personally, I like the look of stitch down vs good year welt. 

[mpukas]

Perhaps another reason some prefer SD to GYW, is that w/ GYW the welt is stitched to a ply rib (aka gemming, and other names depending on maker), which is sometimes made out of linen, plastic, etc. The ply rib is glued to the mid-sole. This is the only connection between the upper and lower parts of the boots. It's possible that the glue could fail and the bottom half of the boot could separate from the upper. But when has anyone ever heard of that actually happening? I haven't, but that not to sa it hasn't happened... 

 

A filler then needs to be added on the inner boundary of the welt, as the welt is proud of the midsole by some measure, and there needs to be a flat surface to attach the out-sole to. A slurry of ground up cork and glue are common on better quality boots, but Chippewa (I had two pair that I can verify this) use a material that looks like ground up bottom-of-the-barrel carpet padding. Their welt wasn't even leather, some sort of composite/plastic. Any filler will compact, and this is sold to customers as "molding to your foot." Marketing BS, IMO. 

 

With SD, the vamp leather is stretched over the top of last and folded at 90d (roughly) and extended outward to allow the mid-sole to be stitched onto it. No ply rib required to attach the upper to the lower. No filler needed to provide a flat surface to attach the out-sole. 

 

I've also read that SD is more water-resistant than GYW. But really, if you're concerned about water-proof boots, then you need to be looking elsewhere, like LLB duck boots, pacs, or the like. Leather acts like wood in some respects in that it will absorb water if not treated and used properly - if the end grain is exposed, it will absorb water, as the end grain in the least durable and the cells are exposed. End grain is also the least durable against abrasion. It will wick in moisture, and moisture will deteriorate glue, leather, fabric lining, etc. The midsole end grain of all SD and GYW boots is exposed and will wick moisture to some degree. 

 

It seems all of the PNW boot makers that make boots for loggers, smoke jumpers, real work, etc. use SD, and that says a lot in itself. 

 

Unless you're doing hard manual labor, or have a real bias one way or another, any of the best quality makers do a fine job. It seems GYW has more ways to cut corners. Personal preference I think. My $0.02. 

[itsbenhere]

Thanks a lot for the help guys. So stitchdown construction doesn't use gemming? Didn't know that, and not going to lie, that is a plus. Also, i think that stitchdown construction has a more rugged look than GYW, which to me is dressier.

 

Too bad I waited too long to exchange my boondockers and now viberg's site (only place with them stitchdown) is out 

[mpukas]

Don't worry about it, Ben. I'm sure Viberg's GYW is plenty badass. Enjoy them! 

[itsbenhere]

They look great for sure. Except even before knowing really any difference between stitchdown and GYW, I wanted stitchdown due to the more rugged look (like i said before!) Club Monaco said they were the exact same as on viberg's site, but CM'S are GYW and not stitchdown. I think they're too small anyway though! Even just standing around my feet feel choked. and it's the 2045 last...

Edited May 10, 2016 by itsbenhere

[youngofthesoonest]

Thanks a lot for the help guys. So stitchdown construction doesn't use gemming? Didn't know that, and not going to lie, that is a plus. Also, i think that stitchdown construction has a more rugged look than GYW, which to me is dressier.

 

Too bad I waited too long to exchange my boondockers and now viberg's site (only place with them stitchdown) is out 

 

I think as long as it's from a reputable brand, GYW vs stitchdown probably won't matter much but then again we are on a forum where many differences in details are small and probably don't mean much to most people but we notice and care. I'm a little wary of viberg's switch to goodyear welt but i have 3 pairs of vibergs and they're still hand down the best boots i've worn so I have no reason really to doubt them. 

[itsbenhere]

I'm a moron... need to pay more attention when I post. Meant to say originally wanted stitchdown just for looks.

 

I agree that I think it's extremely unlikely that those on this forum would have a real problem with viberg's GYW that's due to the nature of the technique, rather than some fluke thing. But like you said, even if I'm never going to need it, I like knowing that what I'm buying is 100% made with the best or most difficult-to-accomplish technique.

[ShootThePier]

When I look at Viberg's Stitchfown vs Goodyearwelt, I equate it to handmade vs assembly line. I like the lower cost of assembly line products, but what most of purchase here is based very little on the price tag.

[mpukas]

Keep in mind that the differences between SD and GYW only apply to the front 270 (unless a full 360 GYW is used). The heel is still nailed to the midsole, with the upper leather wrapper around and sandwiched between. And there's there are varying methods of quality and durability. 

 

This vid is titled as GYW process, but I think it's mislabeled; I think it's actually Norwegian Welt, which I find superior. You can see the welt being stitched to the midsole and upper leathers in one process. 

 

 

 

Contrast to this Redwing vid. Skip to about 8:00 and it clearly shows the plastic ply rib being glued to the mid-sole. This is obviously only one variation on GYW, and just one way Redwing does for this line. 

 

 

 

[fre-co]

Believe me the price will be good. In doing it just for your guys sake not to profit. I wanna make the ultimate engineer with a good price. Cordovan colors in burgundy and black available horsehide in black available , cowhide also is possible pm me if you need more info.

Old last

Low vamp

Heel with 1 lift

Biltrite heel

Biltrite outsole ( can choose half or full sole from dr sole or vibram too)

9 inch height or 10 inch

Double celastic heel

No toe celastics

Steel iron shank

Copper rivets ( if you want but I suggest no water goes in quickly)

Roller buckles brass or nickle

Straps are longer than usual maybe an inch more

Cut off top

Single midsole

Storm welt

Veg tan insole

Goat lining on vamp

No lining on shaft

All sounds good man. Waiting for the price.

[Iron Horse]

Poor Goodyear welt taking an undeserved beating in here!

[mpukas]

Poor Goodyear welt taking an undeserved beating in here!

I'm really not trying to bash GYW, although it prolly seems that way, LOL. It's one construction method that has several ways that corners can be cut, yet makers still pass off top quality construction, just because it's GYW. Better makers will use better materials techniques, and there will prolly never be any issues. It's more important to understand how each maker constructs their products, rather than rely simply on a term. 

[ShootThePier]

You're right, my explanation was a generalization where it should have been specific.

On the Vibergs. If I look at two pairs, say their horsehide 2030, and one pair is Stitchdown and the other GYW, the Stitchdown looks handcrafted. I prefer that feeling I get.

I think the GYW of other makers looks great with their products.

I wonder how many others would choose Stitchfown over GYW on Vibergs if that was the only difference.

EDIT - Horsehide 1035, not 2030. I wear the .com HH1035Stitchdown.

Edited May 12, 2016 by ShootThePier

[mpukas]

...

I wonder how many others would choose Stitchfown over GYW on Vibergs if that was the only difference.

I actual prefer the look of GYW to SD (the SD on my re-built White's is really bulbous). But then again, I also prefer the look of a storm welt to GYW. And, I prefer a 360 Norwegian welt to all of them. One of the reason I like Trickers and some of the other English makers so much. Handwelting definitely has some strong advantages (like no gemming and filler), but there are also some drawbacks that are not immediately apparent (since there is no filler, the cut in the mid-sole that the welt is sewn to pushes through to the insole, which can be felt, and can be very uncomfortable) . 

[itsbenhere]

Boot noob question... just looking for confirmation that these are too small.

 

 

 

They're hard to put on, and even just standing my foot feels very claustrophobic. It also just seems like they straight up look small on my feet. I was surprised since I only sized down one from my US brannock size and it's supposed to be a loose last (2045). Will I have too much room in the toe if I get a half size up?

[karanimal]

They are made of cxl correct? CXL will stretch out width wise a bit which may alleviate some of the claustrophobia your toes are experiencing with wear. 

 

The length to me seems about right, a half size up won't really add too much length but may give you more toe space. How well do you think the boot lines up with your flex point? 

 

I've sold my vibergs in size 11 since they are a hair too short/too narrow. I have an 11.5 at the post office I'm grabbing tomorrow to hopefully remedy that issue. 

[Sugar Mountain]

I have two pairs of Viberg in CXL and my experience was that they did not have so much stretch that it made a discernible difference to relative comfort. Viberg use really thick leather that doesn't give like Alden CXL, for example.

 

I reckon that a half size up would give the extra width and slight wiggle room that you need in the forefoot. Karanimal's point about where the flex point lines up is important too.

[itsbenhere]

How would I be able to tell if it lined up well with my flex point or not?

[karanimal]

http://halfsoles.com/how-boots-should-fit/

 

There is a a good picture of the flex point of a pair of vibergs in this article. 

 

If you take the boot in your hand and try to flex it, it should flex at the natural flex point of the boot, its where the steel shank inside the boot ends. It should feel like your foot isn't fighting the boot to take a step and that the boot naturally bends with where your foot wants to 

 

"You want the flex point to be in the right spot, and you want enough toe room so that your toes don't constantly bang against the boot. There's really no such thing as too much toe room in a boot, if it fits at the flex point and isn't too wide laterally" - Wdahab (styleforum) 

[garden gnomes in space]

Its hard to say, the length looks like it could be ok.  I hate when my big toe touches right where the boot starts to curve so I prefer a  touch more room for that reason alone.  But the width does look kinda tight, especially since the laces are not snug.  I would not rely on leather stretching for comfort like you can on a pair of jeans.  A boot should feel comfortable from the box, or its sized wrong.  

[youngofthesoonest]

Length wise it looks fine but yeah, if it feels tight with the laces on the looser side, i think you could go up a half size and be much happier. 

[dwilson123]

They look a tad narrow.  Personally I always buy my boots just a bit too big.  I find expecting the leather to stretch usually leaves me just wishing I bought a half size bigger in the first place.

[Broark]

Decided I couldn't hold out any longer and ordered a pair of 2045 Boondockers from Viberg this morning.

Will be sure to post photos and thoughts upon arrival. 

[BrownMetallic]

Viberg Derby: Army Tan Latigo :: Goodyear flat welt :: Partially structured toes :: Dainite

Edited May 26, 2016 by BrownMetallic

[karanimal]

DAMN those jeans are looking sweet! Dat roping 

 

The shoes are alright i guess....

[BrownMetallic]

^Thnx

1108C = FC X SuFu X BiG 2009 contest pair ... my pride&joy

[aho]

::cough::

[karanimal]

::cough::

 

 

Details? Waiting period? Sizing? 

 

Those are fucking sweet, i never usually like speed hooks but they look great on those! 

[aho]

^lol they're the "Andrew" Alden boot at Brick+Mortar: http://brickmortarseattle.com/shoes.html

 

Available now in some sizes, Aberdeen last, Natural CXL, waterloc sole, leather lining. Went with usual Aberdeen size (+.5 from Trubalance/same size as Grant or Plaza). Truly beautiful boots if I may say so myself!

[mpukas]

Another great pair of boots shown here by Aho! 

 

Unlike my boy Broak, I'm a sucker for wingtips