Denim Blunders, Reflections and General Nonsense.

[Paul T]

Lovely thread.

 

I interviewed Tom Waits and he said something really profound. I'd asked him about what the most memorable musical moment of his life was. He'd mentioned a particular Lightnin Hopkins show. I'd said how, in a way, picking one show out from your life is meaningless; almost any show could be perfect in its own way. And he replied, in his trademark growl: "yeah. If you were meeting Saint Peter by the pearly gates and he said you could have one more day, pick any one - maybe you would pick that day you spent just sitting by the motel pool."

 

So I've realised I agree with that, and find the days when I'm just walking with my son, or the dog, and the light falls in a good way as being perfect. I think that about my work; often I'll read stuff by people who have so much more skill than me, but I can live with that. as long as my own work is improving.  I think that way about jeans too. I like all of them. I don't spend my time jonesing for a particular pair; I just enjoy the process, the differences between all of them rather than thinking of any one pair as the ultimate. Today I'm wearing my cheapo Euro Lees, which are about the first selvage repro denim I bought, and I'd be happy wearing them if they were all i ever had.

[setterman]

Didn't want to clutter up the Ooe contest interest thread (hoping it happens, and with the LHT denim). I notice there are some guys balking at the $300 asking price.  After a couple years of a weak yen, and denim prices ranging from $120 to $250 direct from Japan, are the days of people willing to pay $300+ for jeans over with?  I know $240 is about my cut off.  

[beautiful_FrEaK]

I would clearly say: it depends

I don’t limit myself to a price and won’t buy anything above it. It depends on what jeans I am looking at and what they offer to me. Crazy fabric, special dyes and neat details. A cut that I think would look great on me…I buy.

 

What I don’t like is importing already imported goods. For example the Ooe Contest Jeans. The jeans cost 28,000 Yen at Ooe (which is ca. 220 €) and S&S pricing at 300 $ (the last batch) is more than fair and a lot less than what you would expect for such a Japanese retail price. Thumbs up to them they could offer them at that price!

 

The new batch might be more expensive (I heard 320 $) and on top of that I would have to pay for shipping from US to Germany (40 $) and might very well be hit with custom fees (additional 31%) which would price this pair of jeans at 470 $ (430 €). And to me there is no added value that would justify such a price to me.

This is only me speaking without the opportunity to profit from the advantages of buying from a brick&mortar shop where I could try the jeans on and have them hemmed to my perfect length with added instructions from the staff.

 

 

To make a fair price comparison: If I buy from Ooe and would be hit with customs I would pay 41631 Yen (28,780 Yen + 3,000 shipping + customs) = 320 €. But there are still 100 € for nothing.

 

 

 

Edit: for me personally, it boils down to the old “buy in a shop vs. buy directly from Japanâ€-problem.

At least in my example.

But to answer your question again: I am also happy to buy jeans at 300+ $ if the value is there (to me)

Edited January 4, 2016 by beautiful_FrEaK

[Blue Nemo]

I am happy there are still guys, and hope there always will be, that pay EUR 250 (and more) for an imported jeans... Would lose the best job in the world if that would start to change!

 

And just my 2 cents regarding the Snake Oil Provision Video. As someone who's actually working retail I tend to agree with everything Ben said, except the thing with APC etc. If someone enters our store and starts to ask me about ONI I would literally jump on that opportunity to talk about that brand.... That attitude might change a bit if it's about Pike Brothers.... As I am no fan ....

 

Anyways, the guy tries to create rules for a space of mutual respect, and the amount of disrespect for him shown in the last pages was pretty weak as the guy couldn't even defend his position himself. Pretty weak for our SuFu crowd.

 

edit: happy new year btw

Edited January 4, 2016 by Blue Nemo

[volvo240thebest]

I don't limit myself but over a certain price (200 Eur +/-) I just feel a bit uncomfortable...

as for the Ooe I was ready to spend a little more myself but then the fabric chosen (#17 lht) doesn't excite myself enough to justify the buy.

Also the rise on the #2 cut is a bit too high for my liking so the mix of the two things determined my choice to not join this time.

[aho]

We've certainly been spoiled by the weaker yen, proxy services, and Denimio/Japan-Holic which get us as close to Japanese retail as possible, but as b_F said it all boils down to relative value which is a personal decision. Of course I'm biased with the Ooe Contest jeans since I'm organizing it, but for me Ooe's are always worth it since they match exactly what I'm looking for in fit, comfort, and wear/evo. I also factor in that Ooe is just Ryo-san and Hiro-san, two people who are making a living off of making and selling jeans, and given the amount of time it takes to make one pair, I'd say it isn't asking much! Getting off my contest soap box now! 

 

All that said, I totally get the customs fees, etc. which make jeans well over the $400-500 range which is insane to me. They are jeans, but they're really just jeans after all!

Edited January 4, 2016 by aho

[bradl]

I am happy there are still guys, and hope there always will be, that pay EUR 250 (and more) for an imported jeans... Would lose the best job in the world if that would start to change!

And just my 2 cents regarding the Snake Oil Provision Video. As someone who's actually working retail I tend to agree with everything Ben said, except the thing with APC etc. If someone enters our store and starts to ask me about ONI I would literally jump on that opportunity to talk about that brand.... That attitude might change a bit if it's about Pike Brothers.... As I am no fan ....

Anyways, the guy tries to create rules for a space of mutual respect, and the amount of disrespect for him shown in the last pages was pretty weak as the guy couldn't even defend his position himself. Pretty weak for our SuFu crowd.

edit: happy new year btw

Do you want me to email him a link to this thread so he can respond?

Also regarding price, $250 is my limit unless it's something really special, but that price tag isn't easy right now with our dollar. The exchange rate is almost a pair of sc1947.

But do want to show respect for s&s, after I posted about that he sent me a message saying he would knock some off the price if it would help me to get a pair. Thought that was pretty awesome, but still just isn't right time.

(I am not advocating to message him for a discount as that was something he generously offered)

[MileHighEvertonian]

After a couple years of a weak yen, and denim prices ranging from $120 to $250 direct from Japan, are the days of people willing to pay $300+ for jeans over with?  I know $240 is about my cut off.  

 

I've started to wonder about this as it pertains to some of the established quality USA brands (Leftfield, Railcar, 3sixteen, Rogue Territory). These brands are increasingly adding more $240-280 offerings to their lineups. I have been buying Leftfield for a few years and bought/wear a pair of Railcars for the DWC (all under $230), but the reduced MIJ prices enabled me to finally buy some SC Okis for $220. I realize that there are plenty of factors shaping why somebody will buy one pair of jeans over another, but I have to imagine the closing price gap between made in USA and MIJ is bound to make things harder on the USA brands. Just one example to consider: you can currently buy from Selfedge a pair of 3sixteen 17oz indigo jeans for $265 or a pair of IronHeart 17oz. natural indigo for $295. 

[setterman]

I would clearly say: it depends

I don’t limit myself to a price and won’t buy anything above it. It depends on what jeans I am looking at and what they offer to me. Crazy fabric, special dyes and neat details. A cut that I think would look great on me…I buy.

 

We've all got some sorta ideal product that will make us open our wallets and spend more than we thought we would.  

 

Just wondering if the market is changing, and you can't automatically expect people to spend over $300 anymore on a pair of jeans without being something very special and/or very limited.  

[itsbenhere]

IAnyways, the guy tries to create rules for a space of mutual respect, and the amount of disrespect for him shown in the last pages was pretty weak as the guy couldn't even defend his position himself. Pretty weak for our SuFu crowd.

 

edit: happy new year btw

 

I agree with a lot of the things he's saying too, I just don't like the way he's saying them. Watching that video I feel like I'm being chastised like a child, rather than just him giving his opinion and why he feels the way he does.. If someone posts a video, they have to be open to criticism, that's just the way it works. I don't think anyone here was overly disrespectful!

[Blue Nemo]

I agree with a lot of the things he's saying too, I just don't like the way he's saying them. Watching that video I feel like I'm being chastised like a child, rather than just him giving his opinion and why he feels the way he does.. If someone posts a video, they have to be open to criticism, that's just the way it works. I don't think anyone here was overly disrespectful!

 

The way he presented himself & the message wasn't my cup of tea either. But I definitely didn't feel "chastised like a child", not at all. That's a thing you might be responsible for yourself and which isn't the guys fault.

 

Of course you gotta be open to criticism, I am pretty sure he is.

Although it's his store and he has all the right to do what he wants to do - and as we funnily agreed now, most of the stuff he said was not too bad at all...

 

Calling someone a "douchebag" is no criticism by the way, that's just poor, especially as the guy couldn't even get your kind of criticism ;-)

[Paul T]

I agree with a lot of the things he's saying too, I just don't like the way he's saying them. Watching that video I feel like I'm being chastised like a child, rather than just him giving his opinion and why he feels the way he does.. If someone posts a video, they have to be open to criticism, that's just the way it works. I don't think anyone here was overly disrespectful!

I disagree with his presumption that he should automatically be accorded respect because he's selling expensive jeans. Why? It's pure materialism; I want more respect because I have an expensive car, or because I have a flash watch. This is just silly consumerism. If you want clichéd phone fades on your tight jeans, you can do better with a pair of Uniqlo.

 

there's an art to selling high quality items; a special sort of patient enthusiasm. When I was a kid I went into the local guitar shop and they were always patient when I'd yack on about Les Paul juniors. It was maybe five years later that I bought my Gretsch 6120 from them; 20 years later that I bought a 52 Telecaster. In between were various synths, a 60s Epiphone, plus an entire record company advance. That was real salesmanship; the same guy is still in business and selling nice guitars, without telling anyone that if they don't like them, they're ignorant.

[Blue Nemo]

I disagree with his presumption that he should automatically be accorded respect because he's selling expensive jeans. Why? It's pure materialism; I want more respect because I have an expensive car, or because I have a flash watch. This is just silly consumerism. If you want clichéd phone fades on your tight jeans, you can do better with a pair of Uniqlo.

 

there's an art to selling high quality items; a special sort of patient enthusiasm. When I was a kid I went into the local guitar shop and they were always patient when I'd yack on about Les Paul juniors. It was maybe five years later that I bought my Gretsch 6120 from them; 20 years later that I bought a 52 Telecaster. In between were various synths, a 60s Epiphone, plus an entire record company advance. That was real salesmanship; the same guy is still in business and selling nice guitars, without telling anyone that if they don't like them, they're ignorant.

 

when did he ask for respect because he's selling expensive jeans?

 

edit: and again, working retail, you quite often experience a lack of respect towards yourself (the salesman) - especially from these nightmare customers. And I am pretty sure that we all have experienced the same, once or twice, as a guy entering a store and get treated like a 2nd class guy because you looked wrong, or whatever.

Edited January 5, 2016 by Blue Nemo

[Paul T]

I've worked retail. That's the job That's life, dealing with human beings.

 

It's the whole, "Don't be walking into the store and look at the price tag and be, like, in shock, it's pretty tacky" schtick that I find ridiculous. It's a retailer's job to explain why the product is good - not to expect consumers to be programmed already.

[Blue Nemo]

I've worked retail. That's the job That's life, dealing with human beings.

 

It's the whole, "Don't be walking into the store and look at the price tag and be, like, in shock, it's pretty tacky" schtick that I find ridiculous. It's a retailer's job to explain why the product is good - not to expect consumers to be programmed already.

 

True, and it's the same tough song with every other job.

 

He explained in the video that he, like all his staff, is super happy to explain "why the product is good". Pretty sure you overheared that! It becomes "tacky" when the customer asks for a discount, not because he doesn't understand the product, but the price tag is just too high. As if all expensive things must be sold with a discount to make the customer happy...

[Paul T]

I'm not going to watch thru that video again but I'm pretty certain that the 'pretty tacky" quote referred to complaining about the price tag - not asking for a discount.

 

20 years ago very few people bought high-end denim - now huge numbers of people do. That's why hundreds of new shops have sprung up, like the one we're discussing. So it doesn't look to me as if huge numbers of people aren't happy to pay for expensive items.

 

Selvage denim has become mass market - obviously not mass market enough for some people, but that's life.

[Blue Nemo]

I'm not going to watch thru that video again but I'm pretty certain that the 'pretty tacky" quote referred to complaining about the price tag - not asking for a discount.

 

20 years ago very few people bought high-end denim - now huge numbers of people do. That's why hundreds of new shops have sprung up, like the one we're discussing. So it doesn't look to me as if huge numbers of people aren't happy to pay for expensive items.

 

Selvage denim has become mass market - obviously not mass market enough for some people, but that's life.

 

Even if that might be true, that doesn't change the fact that he is happy to explain the product, the price etc. That's what he said. Trust me or watch it again...

 

And by the way, you don't have to be an asshole, to get annoyed by people complaining about the price of your products. Just complaining, crying, whining because they don't want to afford it, although it might be the best product money can buy.

Just complaining is pretty annoying, asking for the reason is a whole other story - and I remember Ben made this difference.

[Cold Summer]

What's interesting to me is that interest in raw denim already peaked a few years ago (look at how much more activity there was in, say, the Samurai thread in 2011) yet there are a ton of new stores since the "boom" (relatively speaking) seems to have passed.

 

For me, it's totally worth paying more to be able to try on jeans in person at a good store. However, I rarely have the opportunity to do this since there is only one local store carrying high-end brands and only about three, at that. What becomes a lot more contentious is buying online - when you lose the advantage of being able to try stuff on, and even convenience of returns and exchanges, what's the advantage to buying online from the US when it costs $120-150 more compared to Denimio or other Japanese shops? I'm guessing this sort of thing is a big reason why most of newer stores focus on American/western brands, but it is really weird how you can now get a pair of Samurai jeans for less than 3Sixteen.

[Blue Nemo]

What's interesting to me is that interest in raw denim already peaked a few years ago (look at how much more activity there was in, say, the Samurai thread in 2011) yet there are a ton of new stores since the "boom" (relatively speaking) seems to have passed.

 

consider SuFu as the Avantgarde, so naturally the hype reached the mainstream some years later. while some earlier avantgarde folks moved on to other places.

[dwilson123]

After buying so many jeans and shirts online I am pretty confident now in buying things online and feeling they'll fit

[Chubacca]

Jeez you sound like a way more interesting person than I am.  Good luck with the plans it sounds fun.

 

I think living without a tv or internet helps out a lot.  I have to figure out ways to keep myself entertained.  

[Iron Horse]

I think living without a tv or internet helps out a lot.  I have to figure out ways to keep myself entertained.  

 

Wait, how do you post on here then? Are you in fact Neo, and inside the Matrix?

 

 

[Chubacca]

Haha at work     

[DhaDha]

urgh guys, i've arrived to the point where my life/work situation no longer permit me to be cladded in denim 365 days a year. i'm changing work place into a more conservative environment (corporate banking) and when i asked my boss if i could still wear jeans and sports jacket i was told to get a new wardrobe and suits (predictable, but worth a shot). how do you guys even balance work and denim wearing life? just wear them on weekend/casual friday, and abandon the glory of achieving sick fades and/or win DWC competition? the way things go, i'll probably have to drop out from DWC, and having less time to wear casual clothing and/or work/heritage/ametora wears i probably won't be as interested in the scene as much as now, which is rather strange considering for the past few years i've worn nothing but. 

 

any of you work in the bizness world and balance out your denim/amekaji fix with wearing suit and tie? do you feel like you want to change job and work in retails or denim mills just so you could fades your jeans? 

Edited January 8, 2016 by DhaDha

[Cucoo]

I work at an internet / tech startup (well the startup days are long gone, but it started out as one) and the only suits you see around our office are 1) when banking contacts visit or 2) when interviewees for new jobs are shown around, so I don't have anything useful to say other than that there's still hours left in the day after 9 to 5 - so there's still plenty of time to sickly fade a pair of jawnz. (Maybe also sleep in your jeans or something? )

 

To be honest, to me, "normal" (casual) dress code vs. mandatory suit would be a major point to mull over when considering a job - so I guess, the job was worth taking. Look at it this way, you can also get interesting suits made of great fabrics and just got another, brand new field to learn about and indulge in new clothes

[ironheartfan123]

i used to have to wear a suit, etc. every day to work; when the opportunity came to leave and work from home i took it in part because i can wear whatever i want, wake up whenever i want, etc; idk your working conditions, but taking a lot of pride in my work clothes when i was chained to a desk for so many hours each day would've made me feel even more depressed; also, unlike denim, suits don't really get better with age, which is significant if you're wearing them every day, and the reason i never got a very nice suit until after i wasn't working under those conditions; now i have one nice suit that i wear maybe once every other month; (i never would've thought of working in retail or denim mills)

Edited January 7, 2016 by ironheartfan123

[Cold Summer]

Since I got into raw denim six years ago, I've had two jobs where I had to wear tan pants at work (when I was an English teacher in Japan, and when I worked for another Japanese company in 2014.) I hated it. I'm very fortunate now that I get to wear basically whatever I want at my software developer job. 

[dwilson123]

When I graduated college being able to wear jeans to work everyday was actually quite on my criteria list for companies I wanted to work for

[aho]

Count me as the lucky to be at a startup group as well...I had a stuffy corporate job previously and I never really could get past the "no denim". It's such a big part of my "identity" that it has to be one of my criteria as well moving forward. In the mean time, all you can do is go as hardcore as possible outside of work and on the weekends. Maybe pick up watches or jewelry etc. for a side interest?

[chicote]

Seeing conversations like this on Sufu over the past couple years is partly, if not mostly, responsible for the ever-increasing slobbishness of my dress as of late. This is pretty much just so if I ever enter the weird conformist world of business, or seek to be some sort of "professional", at least I can look back on my glory days of getting to wear torn jeans and shower infrequently..

That said, I once interviewed a guy at a law firm who had his tailor make him a pair of bib overalls out of an Italian suit fabric. He'd wear them over a dress shirt and go to court, and (as his story goes) received, almost exclusively, positive comments from judges and people at his firm. So, depending on the leniency of your bosses, it could be possible to sidestep the rules a bit..

Edited January 7, 2016 by chicote