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Denim Blunders, Reflections and General Nonsense.

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4 hours ago, Double 0 Soul said:

Ive just blown up some images of Levi's 'painted' on arcs, i'm pretty sure they've been screenprinted, from their perspective they could do 100's of pairs from the same silk screen, you don't have that luxury i'm afraid @Flash

they must've screenprinted them before they sewed them on. i've printed on the pocket of a tshirt before and it was a real pain.

 

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Posted (edited)

Interesting, I've found it difficult to get a clean print on stuff that wasn't on a completely flat and smooth surface.

Edited by LazyS

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Flash said:

Stencil smudges too much , actually cut one out of 0.8mm stainless steel on the lazer at work ( this was a few months back ) but it was useless ... the card one I made after done a better job but it still smudged . Ended up doing one free hand and while it was better than the others it just didn't look how I wanted it to

That's the difference between stencil and screen, the stencil comes in direct contact with the garment allowing the ink/paint to bleed through/underneath, the screen doesnt actually come in contact with the garment (no bleed) it is positioned above (off contact) with a gap its only the pressure of the squeejy pushing the ink through the screen making contact with the garment...the screen stretches and imediately snaps back away from the garment so no capillary action.

Edited by Double 0 Soul

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Posted (edited)
20 minutes ago, LazyS said:

Interesting, I've found it difficult to get a clean print on stuff that wasn't on a completely flat and smooth surface.

Making a jig to hold whatever you're printing in position is key, i suspect that Levis would use small pocket shaped pieces of plywood (or other material) which would slot into the pocket giving a flat/stable surface for you to screenprint onto... hinged to the ply would be your silk screen, tis why the pockets of 100's of pairs of LVC 44's all look identical...at least this is my theory

Edited by Double 0 Soul

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5 hours ago, Double 0 Soul said:

You can actually buy fabric paint but if you want to do it properly.. find a friendly screen printer, send them an image of the arcs, they would make a small silk screen and screenprint them on perfectly, the ink they use is heat cured so it stays wet for eternity until its heated to a certain temprature for a specific period of time, basically your jeans will travel on a conveyor under a heater. It will cost a lot more than DIY, i would guess at £30-£40 but if you're spending CSF money on jeans it's a drop in the ocean..

but plastisol ink wasnt invented until 1959 :tongue:

 

my 2 44 have differnt arcs. It's one screen printing on each pocket separately?

yKC5OKg.jpg

 

 

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Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, LazyS said:

my 2 44 have differnt arcs. It's one screen printing on each pocket separately?

I would say each pocket is printed separarely yes, then heat cured in one go.. i have no insider info here, if anyone can come up with a better explanation as to how LVC produces and perfectly replicates it's 'painted on arcs' i would love to hear it.

They might have been done by hand back in the day but i'm sure those skills are lost in the garment industry, like when you look at perfect hand pinstriping around the lugs of old road bikes..nobody has those skills anymore, especially when manufacturers are under constant pressure to keep costs down.

Edited by Double 0 Soul

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Posted (edited)

I’m thinking, it might be the consistency of the paint, as well ... ie, thicker so it does not bleed ... like latex.  I used it on my Momos, long before they ever used black on GTB battle stripes.

 

Edited by BrownMetallic

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Posted (edited)
46 minutes ago, LazyS said:

@Double 0 Soul what would you do? Should I put them on my scanner and trace them in photoshop?

Yes..i think that should do it, screen printers would make the screen using a jpg or pdf.. my friend owns a screen printing/acid etching/sign making company (he's a sole trader) so ive spent a lot of time there drinking tea and seeing how it's all done but if you want any tech advice, i can ask him whatever you like?

You can see part of his printing carouselle set up here with his silk screens in the background while my kid was getting breaking lessons..

Edit...crap i can't upload video, oh well check it out here

Edited by Double 0 Soul

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Posted (edited)

^ Screen printing would be the right way to do it, but might be more difficult for some to set up & get to work well at home than a stencil w/ appropriate paint. I’d be all for giving either a go, but for what it’s worth it looks like I’ll soon have access to a laser cutter, at which point it should be easy enough to cut out a batch stencils on adhesive-back vinyl or similar; would be happy to mail some out to folks depending on how the timeline works out.

edit: assuming we’re all talking about this is the context of the TCB contest…

Edited by julian-wolf

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Adhesive back + appropriate paint = sounds like a plan.

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@julian-wolf That'd be a lot more economical and quicker to send to people than passing one screen around.  I have illustrator too if you'd need a vector image for the laser.

Which ones?  Do the pocket sizes vary depending on the waist size?

g0RB7Y8.jpg

zAfXz07.jpg

 

 

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Posted (edited)

In the case of WWII denim I’m guessing hand painting or perhaps even a stamp is going to give you the best result

I’ll look into some fabric paint and see what I can do

Edited by Duke Mantee

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Posted (edited)

The asymmetric arcs are so boss @LazyS

Edited by BrownMetallic

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, julian-wolf said:

^ Screen printing would be the right way to do it, but might be more difficult for some to set up & get to work well at home than a stencil w/ appropriate paint. I’d be all for giving either a go, but for what it’s worth it looks like I’ll soon have access to a laser cutter, at which point it should be easy enough to cut out a batch stencils on adhesive-back vinyl or similar; would be happy to mail some out to folks depending on how the timeline works out.

edit: assuming we’re all talking about this is the context of the TCB contest…

Actually it was for @Flash i don't think he's in the TCB contest :)

...but going back to what we was saying in the TCB thread..if you go the MacTac route, buy some application tape along with your vinyl (it cost nothing) then cut the arcs out of your vinyl using your plotter, pick out the arc holes (a seamripper works perfectly for this) slap your application tape over the vinyl leaving it overhanging the template then you can ship them out. The application tape only has light tack, so folks can peal off the vinyl backing exposing the sticky face but the vinyl will still be stuck to the application tape...use the translucent aplication tape to register the template perfectly in position, press it down then peel the aplication tape away.

If you don't use application tape the template will stick to your fingers or worst still the thin vinyl tends to curl (because it's stored in a roll) and stick to itself once you peel the backing and you only get one go to get it right.

Edited by Double 0 Soul

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7 hours ago, Duke Mantee said:

In the case of WWII denim I’m guessing hand painting or perhaps even a stamp is going to give you the best result

I’ll look into some fabric paint and see what I can do

..like discharge print-theory? i could make you a wooden arc stamp-print for an exorbitant cost if you want to give it a go?

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Posted (edited)
59 minutes ago, Double 0 Soul said:

..like discharge print-theory? i could make you a wooden arc stamp-print for an exorbitant cost if you want to give it a go?

I knew you wouldn’t be cheap 

I just figure if a factory was churning jeans out more badly made than usual, then it seems someone sitting at the end of a conveyor belt with a stamp is what you might have seen ...

Edited by Duke Mantee

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Like Duke, I’m doubtful of the hand painting of those arcs being a long lost skill, bearing in mind that:

  • unless a specialist was brought in just for the painting, it would have been something completely new to the workers and
  • it appears that some were struggling to complete the regular sewing tasks to the usual standard, therefore unlikely to master the painting overnight 

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1 hour ago, Duke Mantee said:

I knew you wouldn’t be cheap 

I just figure if a factory was churning jeans out more badly made than usual, then it seems someone sitting at the end of a conveyor belt with a stamp is what you might have seen ...

I think l read somewhere that this was the case, yet l've never seen an arc stamping block in any Japanese collections. 

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Indeed, we've seen quite a few of the Stifel ones

Tell you what, i'll make one this week if i get a spare couple of hours and post it off to @Duke Mantee up in northern England, he can do some experimenting.

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53 minutes ago, Maynard Friedman said:

Like Duke, I’m doubtful of the hand painting of those arcs being a long lost skill, bearing in mind that:

  • unless a specialist was brought in just for the painting, it would have been something completely new to the workers and
  • it appears that some were struggling to complete the regular sewing tasks to the usual standard, therefore unlikely to master the painting overnight 

I don't see why not, folks had much more finely tuned practical skills in olden days..i bet the ladies did it @Double 0 Soul how dare you! you sexist pig!! look at the women who worked in industry during WW2, they often did a better job than their male predecessors.

We've always known them as 'painted on arcs' rather than printed on arcs..

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Posted (edited)

I'm at work guy's but have a look through your denim books for vintage S501XX, if the arcs are equally spaced with an equal number of dots, i would guess at printed but if they are not equally spaced like this below, i can't imagine they would be, if you was skilled enough to make a stamp, you're also skilled enough not to fuck it up.

, Billede-41-628x4161.jpg

unless they are done with something like a pasta cutter with little castellations around the diameter which you would roll through some paint and roll them on, rather than a single wooden stamp but getting them to meet up in a point with no over print would be tricky to say the least.

Ateco traditional stainless steel pastry crimping wheel frm only £2.51

Edited by Double 0 Soul

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It would be interesting to unpick the pockets on a deadstock  pair of WW2 jeans and see if the paint continues on the part turned under. It would reveal whether the paint was applied (by hand/stamp/machine) before or after the pockets are attached.

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How dare you guys talk about the paint and the application of such of a S501XX in such deep details? Wasn't it enough to talk about the length of the rise?

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Posted (edited)

Thanks CFM, that seems to clear up when the arcs were applied then. Now it’s just the matter of how.
Why doesn’t someone just ask Miura San - is that Mr Conners - how they did the painted arcs? Surely he would know. Alternatively, Tracey Panek at LVC.

Edited by Maynard Friedman

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Nothing by way of technical info to add, but pulled out a Levi’s book and this pair looks to have been painted prior to stitching, which probably adds to the whole lack of consistency in those days, which is totally reasonable given the circumstances  

C6E8EBE5-1FC6-4D80-B5FB-D09DFD67C915.thumb.jpeg.76c7cd1dc219c84bec83dd29b5f0ab7a.jpeg1485DC16-89CE-439B-B1D4-3C3D6A375E63.thumb.jpeg.38a152f0d7f5c5f463c0238ce7b97db3.jpeg

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