Levi's Vintage Clothing

[Dom]

Which of these has the most shallow arcuate:

44,47, and 55?

I know 66 and 83 are pretty shallow, but between those three.

[wgmds]

im almost 100% that its the 55 out of those. 44 and 46 are pretty deep

[Dom]

Alright, I went and did a little research and found a nice collage of 501:

Except it doesn't have the 55, but that's probably true.

I have a pair of 54's and I like the arcuate.

[Dr_Heech]

Paul, when did the numbered button backs start?

From my experience, the numbered button backs started around 1954. I only presume this due to the fact that the originals I've seen always had a double-sided tab?

They were single digits at first, and later double digits, then a mix of both. At some point in the early 1970's the triple digits started to appear. But then there were years/models which had Letters stamped (J,K,L that I can remember).

Also some 507xx jackets had 17 on the backs by 1954, and so did the 557xx in 1962, but by 1963/4 the 557xx jacket had a 'O' or a 'D' on the button backs.

One thing is for sure, it seemed to change from year to year, and from factory to factory.

.

[roy6]

Thanks, Dr_Heech. I have a specific reason for asking, but I'll have to take a couple of photos before I can ask it fully.

[rob1031]

rob, the price is going up because they have to absorb overhead costs that were previously 'lost' within LVC. they are a smaller group and cna give the product more love and attention but it will cost more. SO if you want a pair that's in the range now, grab em now.

Thanks for the advice!

[setterman]

I'm confused about this price business. I bought a pair of 47's last year, Aprilish, and paid $179 approx. Now they are $219 and most raw appear to be $229. So they already went up. Are they going up again from $229?

Current price depends on where you're buying from... cultizm appears to still have the lowest price (before shipping) of $184. The stores in the US carrying LVC seem to be that highest, in the $220 to $230 range. Once stocks of current LVC are used up, and the new XX line is being carried, I'd expect prices to be in the $230+ range from cultizm and $250+ when sold in the US.

A few weeks ago someone in this thread mentioned working at a Levi's store and being able to buy LVC at wholesale pricing, which was between $60 and $70 IIRC. So that means it actually cost Levis what, $20, $30 a pair to produce these jeans?

After my experience with multiple pairs of LVC 501s, I don't know that I'd buy anything other than the 55s at the current pricing. With a 25% increase, I wouldn't buy anything.

[Paul T]

That new retail might well be more than people can bear.

But there is no way on god's little earth that production on these jeans is $20 or $30. I know what Levi's staff pay, with their discount, for their LVC, and it's not $60 or $70. I don't want to get into the position of being Levi's defender, but the prices you're quoting are way off beam. How much do you think 3 yards of Cone selvage costs, for instance? Do you think Ande Whall's Cone jeans cost him $20 or $30 to make?

I have a thrift store mentaility, I buy most of my denim on sale and resent spending too much. But indulging in fantasy about how much the jeans cost to make doesn't really help.

[benzak]

I have to disagree with you on the pricing Paul.

Cone denim, when bought at high quanties, cost maybe $5 per yard. You'd need 3 yards for 1 pair selvage jeans.

Trimmings are not more than $2 per jeans, since they can be bought at high volumes as well.

The make (cutting, stitching, finishing) per jeans is about $5 - 7.50 in the US I guess

Factory profit is usually around 20%

Shipping, packing etc $1

On average the total would be: $27.50 - 30 for 1 pair of jeans

I might be off on some of the figures, as I have no experience in working with Cone and US jeans production, but I don't think it would be far from it.. comparing it to, for instance, Turkish prices.

And about Ande, you pay for his workmanship and unique product.

[setterman]

How much do you think 3 yards of Cone selvage costs, for instance?

According to Kiya's comments in regard to this article, Cone's most expensive denim is $10 a yard. I assume what's being used in LVC is not their top of the line most expensive denim.

http://www.acontinuouslean.com/2009/09/10/made-in-north-carolina/

[BAerts]

Let's not forget the sheer amount of overhead in a first year subsidiary like XX, lots of new branding, distribution, sample costs, highly experienced veterans as new executives, not to mention variable costs like simply keeping the freaking lights on. :-)

Supply, demand, and so on. It makes sense that with LVC no longer being Levi's Corp loss leader, they'd need to mark up the price point a bit. Additionally, I think they're trying hard to align themselves with more exclusive, higher dollar markets and so, from a consumer perception standpoint, it's good for them to price themselves in the 200 USD and up range. Most people aren't scouring sufu for facts on denim quality, authenticity and such. They walk into a little shop and see "exact replicas" of 40s and 50s STF Levi's and there's a novelty in that.

All that being said, I still wait to find them on sale. :-)

[Paul T]

According to Kiya's comments in regard to this article, Cone's most expensive denim is $10 a yard. I assume what's being used in LVC is not their top of the line most expensive denim.

http://www.acontinuouslean.com/2009/09/10/made-in-north-carolina/

Sure. But nor is it the cheapest denim; it's not $5 a yard, so you're already over $30 on benzak's figures before you cover development costs - which is the bulk of the cost. Buying stock denim is cheaper than developing your own. Of course, they will be paying less for, say the 47 fabric, on which they've recovered development costs, but to ignore development costs and overhead across the range is like adding up the cost of steel for a car and saying that's what the price should be.

The only real argument on pricing is what you want to buy with your own money. I agree the price rise will make it painful for LVC. Higher prices set up a higher level of expectation, and less tolerance for the kind of errors in detailing and, above all, sizing that we've seen in the past.

[benzak]

got my 47 for 1/2 price, waited 5 months for that

[benzak]

Sure. But nor is it the cheapest denim; it's not $5 a yard, so you're already over $30 on benzak's figures before you cover development costs - which is the bulk of the cost. Buying stock denim is cheaper than developing your own. Of course, they will be paying less for, say the 47 fabric, on which they've recovered development costs, but to ignore development costs and overhead across the range is like adding up the cost of steel for a car and saying that's what the price should be.

The only real argument on pricing is what you want to buy with your own money. I agree the price rise will make it painful for LVC. Higher prices set up a higher level of expectation, and less tolerance for the kind of errors in detailing and, above all, sizing that we've seen in the past.

as far as I know, development costs have nothing to do with actual buying price (from the factory), but is rather calculated in the margin --> buying price vs wholesale price. In LVCs case I can imagine it is higher than most other brands.. so for people that claim the jeans are overpriced (comparing to buying price), this a reason why they have to ask $200 in store.

anyways.. the price still rectifies the product (or the other way around) IMHO

[ThomasK]

That new retail might well be more than people can bear.

So that could mean 50 % up or say twice the price?

[beautiful_FrEaK]

just wait and see....

[rnrswitch]

So that could mean 50 % up or say twice the price?

Not to be a stickler for math, but twice the price is actually a 100% increase.

I feel like a geek now.

[dr.house]

Not to be a stickler for math, but twice the price is actually a 100% increase.

I feel like a geek now.

Hehe, +rep.

[ThomasK]

I wanted it just to be more interesting to read . Sure, I could also write "50 or 100 percent"

[airfrogusmc]

And how much profit are those Japanese companies taking? LVC is still cheaper than many of them.

I hate the high price of LVC but the market will bare what the market will bare. I think LVC needs to straighten out some of the problems like the new funky back pocket shape on most of their recent models and the buckle, rivet and suspender button spacing issues on some of their models.

[Maynard Friedman]

Pedantic question.

I thought 'vintage' clothing meant clothing of a certain age, e.g. 25 years. If that's the case then isn't Levi's Vintage Clothing a misnomer and wouldn't Levi's Vintage Style Clothing be more appropriate?

[ChuckO]

I suspect the cost of making the jeans is the least important part of the price in Levi's case. I would suspect a couple of things are going on:

1. Pride. They feel as the originator they should be AT LEAST near the upper end of the selvedge market. Why should Levi concede that to the imitators.

2. They have to have some business justification for being in this market for the bean counters at Levi even if they consistently fail to make there numbers. "Hey, there's a market out there. We just aren't executing! We'll reorganize! There are people out there making a lot of money of OUR DESIGNS".

I think that's what keeps LVC going otherwise it would have been swamped by regular Levi's hugeness.

[entertainment!]

Once they jack up the prices, will they start using linen thread on the older repros?

[ChuckO]

And how much profit are those Japanese companies taking? LVC is still cheaper than many of them.

I hate the high price of LVC but the market will bare what the market will bare. I think LVC needs to straighten out some of the problems like the new funky back pocket shape on most of their recent models and the buckle, rivet and suspender button spacing issues on some of their models.

Japan is so different than the US. They still believe it's worth paying for quality. Here in the US only an asshole pays decent money for anything. Go to WalMart and fill the car up with crap for $50. At this point all we'll pay good money for is home electronics.

[Guest jbone45]

Japan is so different than the US. They still believe it's worth paying for quality. Here in the US only an asshole pays decent money for anything. Go to WalMart and fill the car up with crap for $50. At this point all we'll pay good money for is home electronics.

Blame Bill Clinton.

[rnrswitch]

Pedantic question.

I thought 'vintage' clothing meant clothing of a certain age, e.g. 25 years. If that's the case then isn't Levi's Vintage Clothing a misnomer and wouldn't Levi's Vintage Style Clothing be more appropriate?

I think you mean Levis Vintage Steez Clothing

[rnrswitch]

Japan is so different than the US. They still believe it's worth paying for quality. Here in the US only an asshole pays decent money for anything. Go to WalMart and fill the car up with crap for $50. At this point all we'll pay good money for is home electronics.

And those home electronics are still substandard.

And I would say blame Ronald Reagan.

[Guest jbone45]

And those home electronics are still substandard.

And I would say blame Ronald Reagan.

I say blame them both. Blame every politician that decides to "serve" us. They're all cronies.

Back on topic now....I really regret selling my 1915's.

[Paul T]

Once they jack up the prices, will they start using linen thread on the older repros?

Check out the ROy thread. INteresting discussion on that.

[ChuckO]

Check out the ROy thread. INteresting discussion on that.

Just started reading but that's very cool.