Full Count Denim Thread

[beautiful_FrEaK]

I felt all the same about the TCB vs. FC drama when the contest happened and my interest in the new pairs was never really there. 

But recently I thought about how stupid it was to begin with that TCB really simply copied the FC arc design. Or rather, the ccommunity voted for that design.

[pomata]

I haven’t seen those arcs but since they’re all reproducing-imitating other brands vintage jeans, I think FC should have taken this more sportingly

[Talan]

48 minutes ago, beautiful_FrEaK said:

I felt all the same about the TCB vs. FC drama when the contest happened and my interest in the new pairs was never really there. 

But recently I thought about how stupid it was to begin with that TCB really simply copied the FC arc design. Or rather, the ccommunity voted for that design.

Do not understand why it was necessary to copy the FC arcs? Was that really necessary? I think I can understand why the FC reacted in such strong way. After all, TSB could have shown more respect to their compatriots who have done so much to establish and develop the Japanese denim tradition.

[aho]

I'm biased as I've been lucky to meet Tsujita-san a few times and he's always been a chill cool guy, happy to talk denim, etc. and even pose for photos (lol). When the TCB drama went down, I was definitely annoyed as my pair were broken in satisfyingly at that point, but in hindsight it was a bit bogus for us to emulate the arcs as contestants, even if, as we know, FC arcs are just copies of Levi's arcs to begin with. As a brand, I still enjoy the product, mostly down to the standard denim itself, which is probably my favorite manufactured standard fabric of any of the big names for its soft hand and comfort, and of course, those FADES. I recall it was Tsujita-san's love for how soft broken in/super worn vintage Levis felt when he was thrifting back in the 80's etc. that led to this brand MO. To this day, the Full Count shop is my only MUST visit for denim shopping when in Tokyo, and I even picked up a few items there this past October (heavy oz type 1, 1880's cotton duck jacket, chambray). The staff is always a pleasure to speak with, and very helpful as well, vs. shops like Desolation Row who will eye you and decide whether or not to approach you or not if you're worthy enough lol

Edited December 8, 2022 by aho

[MJF9]

Pic of a pair that had to be returned (anyone recognise them ) taken from the 20s contest thread.  They don't look exactly like FC but I can't remember if a bit of stitching was taken off? 

Here's a link for anyone who wants to live / relive the drama Happy Jeans - Tcb 20s contest thread - superdenim - superfuture® – supertalk (took a bit of searching, where's our resident librarian when you need him Maynard)

Edited December 8, 2022 by MJF9

[Broark]

@MJF9 I recognize that photo. Yes I picked off the tails of the arcs, so they did have runoffs a la Fullcount.
That being said the shape was slightly difference, since FC were based off of 50's arcs and these were shaped after the 20's era.

[AlientoyWorkmachine]

I'm trying to sort out how I'd feel about it if some unnamed brand redid Warehouse's double arcs for a contest jean, and in this small world it would probably feel like pretty direct IP thievery in one sense. In another, as has been pointed out, none of this is new because it's all just ways to copy from something 70-80 years ago. I guess it's down to how much one thinks the details matter. Given the nature of repro jeans it's clear details do matter. I always thought it was super lame was FC did to TCB but I'm starting to reconsider my thoughts on the whole thing...essentially just to maybe not writing FC off as I always have. 

In my business I've had to chase down people lifting my work and I hate doing it because I have some philosophical issues with the idea of copyright, but on the other hand the originality of my work is  what has kept a roof over my head at certain points in my life - and it's amazing how little people give a shit about something they steal, versus something they take the time to create themselves.

That's a little different than what TCB did, but I have a little more sympathy for FC's take on it, and subsequently in the idea of abolishing arcs in general (if the translation I got from the interview was any good it sounds like he's decided they don't really matter, the whole situation left a sour taste in his mouth and he likes jeans where the arcs have disintegrated anyways). 

Edited December 8, 2022 by AlientoyWorkmachine

[edwardlj]

8 hours ago, Broark said:

We had the TCB 20's contest a few years ago, on those jeans TCB used arcs that were very similar to FC.
FC wasn't happy about this, demanded that all the pairs be returned and destroyed or they would sue TCB.
TCB obliged, they then had to make new pairs with different arcs (or no arcs) and distribute them to the contestants.
Ever since that I've lost all interest in FC. This combined with the changes to the jeans (lower SPI, no arcs / tabs) and the recent anniversary cash-grab (hey let's put arcs and tabs on the same jeans and charge even more and call it special edition!) just left a bad taste in my mouth. Plenty of other brands out there fortunately.

do you have the pictures of TCB 20s that of similar arcs to FC? i'd like to have a look.

[edwardlj]

4 hours ago, Broark said:

@MJF9 I recognize that photo. Yes I picked off the tails of the arcs, so they did have runoffs a la Fullcount.
That being said the shape was slightly difference, since FC were based off of 50's arcs and these were shaped after the 20's era.

i see

[edwardlj]

below is the diference of the inseam stitch of the two:

1. Full Count 1101 13.75oz

2. TCB 50s

pay attention to the chain stitch at the waist band and the yoke. although it does not seem very obvious from the pics, i feel TCB's stitch is so tight and firm and stiff, like a blade, while FC's is soft and not so tight sewn. btw i think they are all cotton threads.

 

the colour is blown away by iphone and doesnt look much different but feel completely different by touch.

 

Edited December 9, 2022 by edwardlj

[julian-wolf]

12 hours ago, beautiful_FrEaK said:

recently I thought about how stupid it was to begin with that TCB really simply copied the FC arc design. Or rather, the ccommunity voted for that design.

If the Fullcount design was original, I would certainly agree with this take—but, given that the FC arcs are just a thinly veiled knockoff of Levi’s to begin with, it seems pretty hypocritical of them to have taken issue with TCB going just one degree further. To have gone through all of the trouble of making TCB destroy (and replace) all of the contest jeans only to remove their own arcs from all of their jeans just a year later, really added insult to injury: why bother, if they weren’t going to be keeping this detail anyway?
 

@edwardlj Inseam? Maybe you mean waistband, or yoke? Either way, it’s not clear from your photos that there’s anything to worry about on either pair

 

[beautiful_FrEaK]

4 minutes ago, julian-wolf said:

 only to remove their own arcs from all of their jeans just a year later, really added insult to injury: why bother, if they weren’t going to be keeping this detail anyway?

That was the thing that bothered me the most as well and when it happend I was upset, too,  although I wasn't affected (not being in the comp). Also the harsh reaction by FC surprised me.
And of course they are a rip-off from FC which are a rip-off from Levi's.

But like @AlientoyWorkmachine also said: what would we say if the TCB contest had the double Warehouse arcs? Or the old Samurai arcs or any other repro style arc which of course are all an imitation of Levi's but are still a "design" of the brand doing it first?

Edited December 9, 2022 by beautiful_FrEaK

[julian-wolf]

I think the response would have been similar if the arcs had been in the style of Warehouse and if Warehouse had responded as FC did. In both cases, the companies’ arcs are pretty clearly meant to be easily altered to resemble Levi’s. (Notably, Jelado’s Age of Longing series features arcs that are very similar to Warehouse, and there’s never been any drama there, as far as I’m aware.)

I don’t think other brands like Samurai or SdA with edited non-arcs offer a good parallel. While clearly strongly inspired by the Levi’s design, they’re much more distinct, and can’t be “edited” down to standard arcs.

[MJF9]

I understand FC rejected the option of contestants unpicking the arcs either fully or partially as per Broark's pair, insisting on forced return and destruction instead.  I understand the corporate machine context.  However, the action seemed draconian, especially in the context of FC arcs clearly being a play on Levis and with a potentially pragmatic solution on the table.

[bartlebyyphonics]

15 hours ago, beautiful_FrEaK said:

I felt all the same about the TCB vs. FC drama when the contest happened and my interest in the new pairs was never really there. 

But recently I thought about how stupid it was to begin with that TCB really simply copied the FC arc design. Or rather, the ccommunity voted for that design.

iirc; there wasn't a vote. one contestant in the planning stages suggested arcs that could have an element that could be unpicked "like fullcount's" putting that forward as one possible method / example, but I think a little got lost in translation and it seems to have got done as a replica ... i don't believe anyone got to see the arc examples before the comp then went live [despite chatter asking] ... and I think the discussion got scraped to lessen impact not that that helped any ... but yes; instigating a lawsuit on an arc that itself is a workaround of a lawsuit has a bitter irony, & thus for me yes tcb could've been wiser, but for me it is now the osaka 4 [not that that matters one jot] ...

[bartlebyyphonics]

13 hours ago, Broark said:

... these were shaped after the 20's era.

I hope you are suing for use of your photo!

and yes; they really were the sweetest 20s arcs [wipes a tear away...]

[beautiful_FrEaK]

11 minutes ago, bartlebyyphonics said:

iirc; there wasn't a vote. one contestant in the planning stages suggested arcs that could have an element that could be unpicked "like fullcount's" putting that forward as one possible method / example, but I think a little got lost in translation and it seems to have got done as a replica ... i don't believe anyone got to see the arc examples before the comp then went live [despite chatter asking] ... and I think the discussion got scraped to lessen impact not that that helped any ... but yes; instigating a lawsuit on an arc that itself is a workaround of a lawsuit has a bitter irony, & thus for me yes tcb could've been wiser, but for me it is now the osaka 4 [not that that matters one jot] ...

Yeah I just checked the thread, there was no poll, just the idea being thrown in the ring and most people preferred the FC design. Volvo edited his posts for obvious reasons.

Interestingly, Bobbo knew what was coming

On 6/15/2017 at 4:47 PM, Bobbo said:

Tbh I think it would be a lot easier to go with #1. The cat ear-one needs a lot of work to be appealing. 

One thing though: even if we make the arcs more asymmetrical than FC, are we sure we won't put Inoue in a bind with them? I'm not sure how much the trademarks covers (or if FC even have trademarked their design).

Edited December 9, 2022 by beautiful_FrEaK

[bartlebyyphonics]

yup... he is a man in the industry no? (had worked for Levis before I think? so most aware of the litigious possibilities from one of the greats...)

[beautiful_FrEaK]

Well, I was probably as disappointed like most guys when this happened and the hypocrisy is still there but in hindsight it really wasn't the smartest move to begin with.
Just my opinion nearly 5 years later

[Broark]

I can think of at least one other brand that uses a similar mirrored arc a la WH (DryBones on a few models), I feel like I have seen others that I can't recall right now.
I guess the reason I took it poorly is that at the end of the day the goal was to try and bypass some copyright from an global retail conglomerate in the sake of historical accuracy. Why take shots at one another? This is a pretty niche hobby to begin with, so we're talking about a very small circle of influence.
Maybe I'm too forgiving / understanding, but given the limited nature of the contest, I feel like this could've been resolved with a phone call and a gentleman's agreement that TCB wouldn't ever use arcs like that again. No bad blood, no bad publicity, and no one ends up with mud on their face. I totally understand why FC would be upset, I just felt like the desired outcome was overkill.
Plus the cherry on top is that they end up ditching the arcs on their own jeans anyways...

[Flash]

From the outside looking in what FC done was petty but they are a business in an overcrowded and quite small market so it was understandable they didn't want someone else using part of there branding , but didn't anybody else think it actually a little lazy of TCB to use fullcounts arcs ? 

Edited December 9, 2022 by Flash

[bartlebyyphonics]

3 minutes ago, Flash said:

... did nobody else think it actually a little lazy of TCB to use fullcounts arcs ? 

i think if they had shared the arc design in advance of the comp. going live they would have gotten a lot of opinion/steering ...

“The owl of Minerva spreads its wings only with the falling of dusk.”

[Flash]

Agree with the first part mate , if members here had seen the cars before manufacturing began I definitely think they would've been changed 

Havent a clue about the owl of Minerva though ....? 

[beautiful_FrEaK]

I think it was shared, wasn't it? Hard to tell because Volvo edited his posts and probably removed some pics.

Edit: it would have never happened, if Ed wouldn't have posted on Instagram that some pairs are still available at Signet store, showing the jeans with the arcs. On that post, Miki-san commented just "WTF" and I think everything else came afterwards  

Edited December 9, 2022 by beautiful_FrEaK

[julian-wolf]

11 minutes ago, Broark said:

I feel like this could've been resolved with a phone call and a gentleman's agreement that TCB wouldn't ever use arcs like that again.

Right? If it has been a full production run that would maybe be a different story, but this was a very limited release available only by preorder, and the arcs weren’t in any way used as a selling point ahead of time—it’s not like the contest jeans were cutting into Fullcount’s market, in practice

[bartlebyyphonics]

@Flash its a phrase that could be unpacked to mean understanding (the owl of minerva as symbol of knowledge) often only comes afterwards (once dusk has fallen on the day of the event) ...

and yes @julian-wolf the run of that model was to be done within this community only, not on the open market... it was only once the supplier for the comp. tried to get rid of some excess pairs on instagram that FC eyes came upon it... [exactly as @beautiful_FrEaK recalls...]

Edited December 9, 2022 by bartlebyyphonics

[bartlebyyphonics]

5 minutes ago, beautiful_FrEaK said:

I think it was shared, wasn't it? Hard to tell because Volvo edited his posts and probably removed some pics.

I remember very much wanting to see them in advance, but do not recall that this materialised; but my memory is as fallible as any...

[beautiful_FrEaK]

8 minutes ago, bartlebyyphonics said:

and yes @julian-wolf the run of that model was to be done within this community only, not on the open market... it was only once the supplier for the comp. tried to get rid of some excess pairs on instagram that FC eyes came upon it...

Seems our memory is the same

[Maynard Friedman]

I heard that Marks & Spencer, who have been making plain back pocket jeans for years are now going to sue Full Count for copying their design, or lack thereof.

[AlientoyWorkmachine]

This is all probably more interesting to me than it should be. Perhaps WH wasn't the best example - I don't know enough to know - but maybe in the small industry that it is the double arcs are accepted amongst a few brands as something that's generic enough to play with. 

While I do think what FC did was petty and overly aggressive, I'm also having a hard time seeing TCB as innocent. I think it's one thing to rip off of Levi's from 50 years ago - as that's what industry is built on - but another to copy such a specific little detail that only one other manufacturer is using. And anyways - for me at least - the differences between Levi's and what the Japanese brands come up with, those little details are actually usually what I like. I get that FC abolishing their arcs after this makes people even more sour on them, but to my mind - again if the translated interview was accurate enough - it seems to me, reading between the lines, that this whole thing may have led Miki-san to think about getting rid of them. I see that pivot in ditching the arcs actually as redeemable - or it least it could be read this way. Like he wanted to ditch this thing that caused him so much trouble because he doesn't really believe they're so important anyways - I think it's not far fetched to think he just regrets the whole thing and everything that led to it.

At any rate, as a consumer, I'm sort of left feeling like if I write off FC, I should probably write of TCB to be consistent. I don't own anything and never been much interested in anything from either, but I don't think I'm going to write either off, especially in light of FC ditching their arcs now. I get that this may be a strange take to some. 

Edited December 9, 2022 by AlientoyWorkmachine