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kiya

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thanks for the answer kiya. i suppose this kind of selective mimicry is not uncommon among postcolonial countries, the colonizer here being americana and american pop culture in general. here in indonesia (which was ruled by the japanese briefly during the second world war incidentally) many cool kids have the obligatory pomp without knowing anything about rockabilly. it leads to piecemeal understanding of history and a false sense of equality with the parent-culture they're trying to emulate.

A good point but I'm not sure it's entirely valid. The modern world is somewhat of a paradox in that it provides a vast array of information on just about every topic imaginable, in various media, allowing a myriad of influences; at the same time it saturates us to such an extent that we may feel helpless and unable to cope or simply choose to cherry-pick the best, seemingly-relevant bits. Using your example, any kid could browse some pictures from a different country/culture/era on the Internet, find a hairstyle they like and show it to their barber on their iPhone and say "I'd like this please" (obviously they're polite). Why do they need to know the history and context of the hairstyle - I'd agree it's useful but not necessary - as it's just another style accessory to the kid in question, along with the whole mish-mash of fashion bits and bobs. It's just a bit of fun and part of growing up. Fashion and it's exponents beg, borrow, steal and continuously reinvent. Sometimes people will hit on something that truly strikes a chord with them and search deeper and that's a good thing too but overall I'm not sure it matters that much. Did all those American rockabillies of yesteryear know this: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pompadour_(hairstyle)?

Edited by Maynard Friedman
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did morrissey take the cues for his pomp from madame de pompadour or from elvis? that would be an interesting question for a history quiz... the problem is this lack of curiosity applies across the board to music, art, literature and politics (definitely identity politics!). for a postcolonial country like ours, this can lead to a lot of self-defeating habits, not the least of which is fetishizing the West instead of negotiating with it on equal terms ("beg, borrow, steal, reinvent"). we even have a word for indo hipsters who fetishize the West, "inlander" (from the dutch word for "islanders").

 

to me the historical background of fashion is always interesting in itself. one historical question about this whole repro denim thing that's always been on my mind (though maybe this is more a question for psychoanalysts rather than historians): what's with some japanese brands' obsession with repro-ing U.S. military gear? considering that the U.S. dropped two atomic bombs in japan in WWII, was there any local uproar when the real mccoy's started reproing A-1 jackets? wouldn't this be similar to an israeli brand reproing waffen-ss gear?

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The military-influenced issue has long baffled me too ooms, not so much in the clothing per se as the average person might not know an A1 from their elbow but more with reference to the slogan t-shirts. It seems that nothing is sacred when it comes to fashion. In this case I'd definitely agree that some historical knowledge/perspective is required.

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one historical question about this whole repro denim thing that's always been on my mind (though maybe this is more a question for psychoanalysts rather than historians): what's with some japanese brands' obsession with repro-ing U.S. military gear? considering that the U.S. dropped two atomic bombs in japan in WWII, was there any local uproar when the real mccoy's started reproing A-1 jackets? wouldn't this be similar to an israeli brand reproing waffen-ss gear?

 

Interesting question. I never thought I'd use my education in psychoanalysis on these forums, but here we are!

 

This is all of course completely theoretical and unsubstantiated, but let's have a bash at diagnosing an entire society anyway!

 

To begin, we'll assume the atomic bombs, and subsequent US occupation of Japan, was enormously traumatic for the nation.

 

The Freudian view would understand the Japanese appropriation of American military style as a quite typical playing out of the Oedipus complex, forming a defence mechanism (identification) against castration anxiety. 

 

That is to say, symbolically on the level of the unconscious, the USA represents this monstrously powerful, terrible father figure. This causes enormous anxiety for the subject. One (healthy) way to reduce anxiety is to identify with this metaphoric father, by adopting his behaviour, his language, and of course, his appearance, i.e., American culture from the time it appeared most monstrous and powerful to the subject (World War 2 as ooms pointed out).

 

In this manner the subject takes on the power of the oppressive figure, instead of living in fear of it.

 

Jung would see the same phenomenon more as a society's confrontation with its shadow and animus through active imagination (obsessive design and production of clothing that constantly re-lives the moment of trauma (WW2) until it is worked out).

 

Anyway, I'm sure that's sent a few people to sleep so I'll stop there.

 

edit: formatting didn't work quite right.

Edited by Aries
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i like your hypothesis aries! postcolonial theory and psychoanalysis do have a lot of things in common. i love the "sewing-back" argument, of japanese denim artisans one-upping their monstrous, oppressive father figure to conquer their anxiety of influence. take that LVC! 

 

i guess being an aussie you must be well familiar of the burning desire to give mother england a taste of her own medicine! 

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Interesting exchange regarding Japanese culture, Marlon and James, etc.  I've wondered, too, why American military-inspired clothing is appealing to a culture that experienced what it did in WWII.  I asked this question of someone more knowledgeable than I years ago and he said it had something to do with the way the USA treated Japan post war, in addition to the fact that Japan ultimately recovered from the devastation and built a stronger economy and political system.  Forgive me if I speak from near total ignorance about the post war period.

 

Back on the subject of denim, it's not only interesting how certain cultures latch on to certain brands, but also how style preferences can vary.  For example, my understanding is that wider cut jeans (such as the Full Count 0105) are significantly more popular in Japan than elsewhere, no doubt due to the historical connection to early (e.g., 1955) Levi's.  It's funny how I find myself drawn to some of these styles for the same reasons regardless of how they actually look or feel on my body ;-)

 

John

Edited by JohnM
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I'd never quite thought of it before in those terms, but Kiya is dead-on.  Another example:  Tons of people in Japan love Bon Jovi, but nobody knows Van Halen.  Rush, despite being very successful around the world and a seeming shoe-in for a Big In Japan band, is virtually unknown in Japan for some weird reason.  Japan is very strange about the stuff it latches on to. 

 

i think the rush thing is because it's really hard to translate the insane philosophical complexities of a tom sawyer or red barchetta to another culture / language.

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In Germany was a similar trend to be observed after the war. As you know, there were four zones formed (biritish, french, russian and american). The Americans were considered as the far better option as the russians were demonized the last years in WWII. That made the american culture appealing to the young - I recall stories, where kids were running after soldiers to get chewing gum or coca cola, some even tried to buy blue jeans off them. Not sure if psychology explains this, but at least the observation that the american culture was admired by the young happened here as well. And the 50s & rock'n'roll settled these feelings.

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That's a very good point Max, and definitely another common reaction I've witnessed firsthand in Eastern Europe (everyone wants American brands of... anything they can get their hands on, really).

 

Psychologically, it's actually a rather simple diagnosis: fashion (i.e. not functional clothes) live on the level of symbolism, and therefore fantasy.

 

In those cases, it's classic projection: one projects their desires, their fantasies, onto an object, and in their mind it assumes these qualities (and on this forum we know this better than most...!): by attaining this object, it is hoped our insecurities diminish, our fractured sense of self becomes whole.

 

It doesn't, and the cycle continues because we are enormously irrational, and keep believing the next object will 'complete' us.

 

Indeed, modern advertising was founded on this very principle by Freud's nephew, Edward Bernays.

 

On the macro level, we can be persuaded of the symbolic potency of an object through various institutions.

 

In those days it was slightly different (government propaganda etc.), but these days it's mostly private media and marketing.

 

Hence we have enormously irrational adverts linking sex with washing powder, coca cola and yes, denim. And more often than not, it works.

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Culturally the historical connection between Japanese citizens and U.S. Army members grew stronger during and after the occupation.

The U.S. remained stationed in Japan for a solid 7 years, and MacArthur's troops were generally well received by the Japanese. (I say generally due to the temperament of some GI's, the past and current state of Okinawa, etc.)

Most troops were instructed to not infringe upon certain cultural norms and customs.

While American troops remained there to solidify a democratic nation going forward, fearing Soviet influence in Japan, there were several other events that occurred in result of the occupation that established a standard for quality of life in Japan after such a traumatic event.

Establishment of labor unions and standards, democratization, liberalization (be it good or bad, the Zaibatsu system wasn't fantastic), disarmament (also being reconsidered now considering Japanese/Chinese tensions).

All that being said, I can see how historically some Japanese might see this connection to repo military clothing.

It was a very interesting time and many Japanese had fond memories of the years after occupation, "the good old days" type of emotional response.

 

Sorry for rambling, but I've got to put this global studies degree to some use every now and then.  :wacko:

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^ C c c c combo breaker! :-)

Seriously guys, I'm no historian, globalist, psychoanalyst or similar - I just like jeans, however this page rates as one of the most interesting and thought provoking conversations I've happened across on t'internet. Who knew?!

Edited by Artisandenim
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Hey Kiya,

 

I'm looking to try on the SC2009's, any idea when a restock will hit SENY? Aiming for a size 31 or 32.

 

 

Thanks!

 

We'll have a big restock of those jeans at all stores on September 5th.

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One of the biggest thrills of the trips to Japan is people watching. 

It is a country where the collective good is valued very much over the individual. If the Soviets had ever expanded their empire that far east they would have found society that may have been easier to mould to their ideology than might first be imagined.

Japan has one of the lowest gaps between employer/employee earnings in the world and the company director is almost a father figure whose duty to to look after his work force rather than exploit.

 

Out of this pressure to conform to the common good springs some truly non-conformist individuals. 

That said, there is a lot of conformism in Japan amongst lovers of americana too. They will look to each other to adopt a certain style to an extreme in some cases where they almost become clones of each other. But this is also why they have such good style and dress sense in a way Punk in the UK in the 70s would never have achieved (or wanted to either). They perfect the style by closely watching each other. This style comes from first conforming, then tweaking and improving on what they see before them. 

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That is how all styles are built though isn't it?  Seeing something you want to emulate then do it your way.

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I think what cc is trying to imply is the Japanese art of taking something and making it their own.

Their ability to emulate and recreate something that is often times better than the original is very impressive.

This can be seen in many different aspects of their history and culture. Specifically when they had different interactions and exchanges with foreign cultures.

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One of the biggest thrills of the trips to Japan is people watching. 

It is a country where the collective good is valued very much over the individual. If the Soviets had ever expanded their empire that far east they would have found society that may have been easier to mould to their ideology than might first be imagined.

Japan has one of the lowest gaps between employer/employee earnings in the world and the company director is almost a father figure whose duty to to look after his work force rather than exploit.

 

Out of this pressure to conform to the common good springs some truly non-conformist individuals. 

That said, there is a lot of conformism in Japan amongst lovers of americana too. They will look to each other to adopt a certain style to an extreme in some cases where they almost become clones of each other. But this is also why they have such good style and dress sense in a way Punk in the UK in the 70s would never have achieved (or wanted to either). They perfect the style by closely watching each other. This style comes from first conforming, then tweaking and improving on what they see before them. 

 

Well said Danny.  At the risk of opening Pandora's Box, couldn't some of what you say about the human tendency toward cloning and conformity apply to (some of) us at Sufu too?

 

I was in Maine last week with my 60 year old friend Brad who mentioned that he spent some time in Brooklyn with his 25 year old son and his friends, all of whom were sporting flannel shirts, denim, and Red Wings.  While Brad decided against adding a tattoo, he did let his beard grow in order to feel more comfortable among his son's friends ;-)

 

John

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Iron Heart's "Purple Urkle" Super Heavy Weight Flannel, 633s Straight Tapered Jean & Restocks

 

We've got two new items from Iron Heart and a restock of their popular Devil's Fit and 301s slim cut jeans.

 

First up we have the Purple Urkle super heavy weight flannel with black permex buttons.  This thing is soft, super heavy, and shows off exactly what Iron Heart does best.

 

We have received our stock of the new 633s jean from Iron Heart, this is a jean designed to be a straight leg jean above the thigh and a tapered jean below the thigh.  It was designed for those who need more room around the crotch and upper thigh areas of the jean but still want a tapered leg look with a small leg opening.  You get all the mobility of a straight leg jean and the tapered look of a slim jean at the same time. These also come with a longer than usual inseam length.  The 633s is made of Iron Heart's flagship 21oz sanforized denim.

 

Both these new items along with a full restock of the 301s, 634s, 9634, and Devil's Fit are available now at all Self Edge stores.

 


 

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i'm a couple days late, but taking western shit out of context and trying to make it uniquely japanese has been around since the mid 19th century.  i have this crazy free jazz record from the 70s that's all stephen c foster covers and this is also why baseball is so popular.  that said, i have yet to find a japanese definition of japaneseness that is other than "made by a japanese person" but acknowledge that cultural studies is not where i spend a lot of time.  i do know a fair few japanese dudes though, they all think my interest in japanese music is weird.  by extrapolation, i can't imagine why anyone from japan would have heard about roy except the real freaks out there.  this is probably not explaining my thoughts too well but fuck it.

 

those w david marx interviews look interesting though, gotta check it out

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3sixteen Crosscut Flannels & 3sixteen+ 30BSP Jean

 

3sixteen have just delivered to us two new flannel shirts and a restock of one of their most popular jean models.  

 

The Crosscut Flannels are made of a heavy weight Japanese cotton flannel with some nice detailing on the rear yoke.  These are available in two colors.  The versions available at SESF, SEPDX, and our online store (same as the ones pictured below) do not come with the western shaped pocket flaps, the chest pockets are open at the top.  The versions at SENY and SELA have angled pocket flaps above the pockets.  

 

One of our fastest selling 3sixteen models is the 30BSP from 3sixteen+.  It has a fit which works very well for guys looking for a jean with decent room in the top block for mobility and a taper below the thigh for a small leg opening, its a combination of a straight leg jean (above the knee) and a tapered jean (below the knee).  The 30BSP is made of a 15.5oz Japanese selvedge denim, prouduced exclusively for 3sixteen+, and the jean is cut and sewn in the USA.  These are available now at all Self Edge stores and in our online store.

 


 


 

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Does anyone have the FH hand-sewn cordovan wallet?  Been in the market for a new wallet and this one has my attention.

I'm a bifold guy but this one looks pretty unique.  I meant to check it out when I was in SF but it slipped my mind.

 

Also just wanted to give a shout out to Kiya for showing my friend and I around SF the other evening, he and Demitra got us coffee'd and boozed up for the road trip back to LA the other night. 

It's good knowing that a store like Self Edge is run by some pretty awesome people as well.

And by the sounds of it my next trip is going to have to be to Portland, look out Tyler!

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Are you talking about this one Broark?

http://www.selfedge.com/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=221&search=cordovan

 

I have one of these, I've been using it a lot since I came back to the US and need something smaller than my long wallet on many occasions.

The thing is, this is actually a card case, in Japan these are used pretty much exclusively for carrying business cards.

But in the US it works great if you've just got a few cards and a little bit of cash.

 

Also, I LOVE the turquoise 3Sixteen flannel.  Fantastic color and really impressive depth and complexity in the pattern, it reminds me of the very best of the FH Glory Park flannels, in a great color. 

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