Denim Blunders, Reflections and General Nonsense.

[setterman]

If this would be the entire case, there wouldn't have been a reason for Ed/Signet to complain about Denimio selling Full Count at Japanese retail with free shipping. And Full Count reacted and thus prices at Denimio went up for Full Count. And apparently Kiya knows more when he already said that Full Count won't supply Denimio anymore.

 

So Signet was hurting significantly. And hence my question about why he opened up a store in the first place. An ass hole could say "Well, Ed...you were too late and didn't make a good business plan and now you complain because you fucked it up."

 

If you wait until you're hurting significantly to complain, it's too late.  I'm sure Ed and every other store owner selling FC applied pressure on the brand as soon as they were aware of being undercut.  

 

The only reason to open a store is to make money.  The fact that there are five Self Edge stores now, should tell you #1, there's money to be made, and #2, Kiya is good at making it.  Does it require constant work? Are others able to pull it off?  Will it be a viable business model 10 years from now?  He's got one thing definitely on his side when it comes to future... store locations.  SF, LA, and NY all guarantee access to huge populations, and fashion minded, affluent customers.  Will Ed be successful? Time will tell.  He, and any other store trying to get going right now may well be too late to the game.

[FeloniousMonk]

As a minimum you also have to factor in additional transport/logistics/handling costs to get those jeans from Japan to the US plus currency exchange costs. There may be additional local taxes too.

 

True, though I actually would be surprised if the logistics/handling is much worse for jeans coming to NYC than it is for jeans going to far reaches of Japan. I have not read up on logistics networks in the clothing industry, but for a few other industries where I have some familiarity (food, raw materials), the overseas shipping is often the least expensive part of the journey. It's those small-scale trucking routes taking smaller deliveries to and from the major urban logistics centers that adds the most per-unit cost. And those journeys would be pretty similar cost if undertaken in Hokkaido or in the New York Tri-State area.

 

We also don't have VAT (it's kind of a major hassle in the US, all our sales taxes are in addition to the quoted prices if you are in a brick-and-mortar), so that doesn't affect the quoted retail price.

 

Currency risk, yeah, that's a stickler. But that's also mostly a matter of finding someone with a bit more expertise on financial markets who won't screw you, because it is a relatively cheap and easy risk to hedge if you have fairly predictable payment dates and amounts (which should be the case if you are ordering a pretty stable quantity of product at set seasonal deadlines)... But I do bet you're right that this is a risk that almost no local shops hedge out, and they probably tend to overprice it.

 

So yeah. I guess I'm just curious about some of these details of the business. Mostly because I'm a curious sort of person and the details tell a lot about areas of government policy, global trade, power and profit balances up and down the high-end garment supply chain, evolution of business and contract norms in the industry, etc.

[TheIntelligentHoodwinker]

I definitely see both sides. I would love to have the balls to open a shop selling something that I was really interested in. But I will say that I don't like the fact that many of these shops see themselves as gatekeepers for certain brands when many of us were familiar with them long before they opened their doors.

 

I'm approaching 40 and like many men my age I'm in a groove with what I wear nowadays - I have essentials that I wear to death and then replace. I order my Vans Authentics off Amazon and my Gitman Vintage oxfords from wherever has them on sale. I also like slimish fitting jeans, around 15oz in weight, that are made in Japan, and I've narrowed it down to maybe 2 brands and a handful of cuts. I just want them at the most reasonable price, and sent to my house, so I can wear them into the ground and get another pair.

 

You cannot convince me that £299.00 is a reasonable amount to pay for a pair of jeans, no matter how cool the shop is. Sorry, but no.

[harls]

You cannot convince me that £299.00 is a reasonable amount to pay for a pair of jeans, no matter how cool the shop is. Sorry, but no.

What are your thoughts on the pricing at stores such as SOAS and R&H? Do you think the locations justify the markup?

Edited June 21, 2016 by harls

[Niro]

I shudder to think what their rent is. Those areas are insane floor space cost wise.

[tdj]

I think the point isn't whether the locations "justify" the markup, it's more of what does the shop need to charge to survive at that location?  Hey man - if these places can pull it off by charging what they do, then more power to them!  That's phenomenal!  I'm overjoyed when I see SE open up store after store - I'm rooting for them!  

 

I also want to expound on something I said earlier: while I don't think Denimio is to blame for doing what they do (and they do it well!), I also completely respect that ability of brick and mortar stores to approach manufacturers that are sold on Denimio and complain - I think of it is an opportunity to negotiate/re-negotiate ("if you continue selling to Denimio, and they can still offer those prices internationally, then we will stop carrying your stuff").  That's the nature of business - each person uses their strengths to profit the most.  For some brands, they might view it as critically important to have a foothold in America at places like SE.  But others might not care at all, telling our brick and mortar stores to just suck it up.  So then the ball's back in our stores' courts: continue to sell those brands or move on ...

[harls]

Agreed, and I wasn't trying to imply otherwise. I'm only curious as the price of rent in central London is known to be crazy high and some people do attribute the high prices of goods to it. I like both of the stores I mentioned and wish them every success.

[ColonelAngus]

I think the point isn't whether the locations "justify" the markup, it's more of what does the shop need to charge to survive at that location? Hey man - if these places can pull it off by charging what they do, then more power to them! That's phenomenal! I'm overjoyed when I see SE open up store after store - I'm rooting for them!

I also want to expound on something I said earlier: while I don't think Denimio is to blame for doing what they do (and they do it well!), I also completely respect that ability of brick and mortar stores to approach manufacturers that are sold on Denimio and complain - I think of it is an opportunity to negotiate/re-negotiate ("if you continue selling to Denimio, and they can still offer those prices internationally, then we will stop carrying your stuff"). That's the nature of business - each person uses their strengths to profit the most. For some brands, they might view it as critically important to have a foothold in America at places like SE. But others might not care at all, telling our brick and mortar stores to just suck it up. So then the ball's back in our stores' courts: continue to sell those brands or move on ...

But isn't this just creating a monopoly on goods? Not saying it's necessarily good or bad in this instance but I think if consumers are forced to buy product at an inflated prices then no one wins. I have nothing against Denimio or OD or any B&M that sells high end denim. Every store has their strengths and weaknesses but competition is king.

[denihilist]

Can we get a mod to make a SuperEconomics board please?

[kiya]

But isn't this just creating a monopoly on goods? Not saying it's necessarily good or bad in this instance but I think if consumers are forced to buy product at an inflated prices then no one wins. I have nothing against Denimio or OD or any B&M that sells high end denim. Every store has their strengths and weaknesses but competition is king.

 

 

 

What we're talking about here is not a monopoly in any way.  I believe the term you're looking for is "price fixing".

The idea of price fixing has negative connotations, yet it is used by many high end companies from Rolex (and nearly every other fine watch making company) to audiophile equipment to classic couture brands.  It is the only way they see a future in their brand internationally, without it they cannot survive outside of their native country or region.  

Edited June 22, 2016 by kiya

[TheIntelligentHoodwinker]

What are your thoughts on the pricing at stores such as SOAS and R&H? Do you think the locations justify the markup?

 

Given Son of a Stags location and the huge amount of stock they carry, yes, I think they can justify the markups. As a shopper however, I can't justify paying them.

[ColonelAngus]

What we're talking about here is not a monopoly in any way.  I believe the term you're looking for is "price fixing".

The idea of price fixing has negative connotations, yet it is used by many high end companies from Rolex (and nearly every other fine watch making company) to audiophile equipment to classic couture brands.  It is the only way they see a future in their brand internationally, without it they cannot survive outside of their native country or region.  

 

thanks for the clarification. again, I know nothing of international commerce, so take my comment with a grain of salt. I was looking at this from a consumer perspective rather than a business perspective.

[OptimusPrime]

Some forum members have summed it up very nicely and better than I could, what's happening is that some western retailers are trying to strong arm the brands they carry not to deal with a certain Japanese online stores, because they feel entitled that they should be the gatekeepers of those brands anywhere outside of Japan.

 

e.g. As consumers we lost an easy access to the product range offered by The Strike Gold as a denim brand, so people that are interested in their products will have to buy them at the US retail price or go through Rakuten which isn't the easiest to deal with for some.
So are the consumers and the brand itself the big winners in this case? Or is it the middle man like it's 2007?
It's simply a hilarious idea that a Japanese company is prohibited from selling Japanese made jeans because of pressures being applied by a certain western retailer.

I don't see the US retailers publicly diss each other, even though they have exclusive rights to carry a certain brands that  the other can't, for example Samurai Jeans and TFH.
I don't see the Japanese online retailer coming here to purposefully draw customers away, yet somehow a certain US retail store owner feels entitled to continuously demote the online retailer in public forums like that behavior is justified and professional.

At the end of the day, if you have the need to physically try on the clothes before you buy, by all means get them through the shops that offered you that service as an added value if you feel it's justified.
But that's all there is, just don't be a hypocrite and tell people that they should support their local stores while you go shopping online because you want the best value for your money.

[edmond]

You have not experienced being a trader? Or a business like buy and sell before?

[andewhall]

Hi Ed, did you open a store?

[OptimusPrime]

You have not experienced being a trader? Or a business like buy and sell before?

 

No, fuck you, I am a prime and my business is to kill Decepticons like you.

A certain online store is selling Full Count at 20% more than retail thanks to you.

[edmond]

Hi ande yes sir a year and a half in!

Optimusfuckingprimesonofabitchasshole nah man how old are you? You have a family to feed? And yes you will win all the time but thAts not real life real life always fucks up aleays goes the other way around

[OptimusPrime]

edfuckingsonofabitchassholedickheadmond, the way you are behaving, makes me wonder how old you are?
How about the the online competitions that you are dissing, don't they have families to feed?

[edmond]

Im asking about you man not them. And are you in theyre payroll? Why are you protecting them?

[adsevil]

I was so surprised there was no one mentioned Denimio is keeping on selling UNFAIRï¼ILLEGAL price for most of the brands they carry so that was why more and more Japanese brands cut off the dealership with Denimio

 

Before you become a Japanese dealer for the brands, you must reach the agreement that you will never ever sell cheaper retail price which they make (with JP TAX). Or if you wanna do the sale, you must send them the emails to tell them what is the reason that you wanna do the sale.

 

For the the customers oversea who wanna buy the products without JP tax , there are only 2 ways:

 

1. You buy your own ticket to visit Japan then buy stuffs in selected "Tax Free" shops, the staffs must record your Passport NO, name , address ect and will give you the invoices then you have to show them to the CUSTOM before you fly off from Japan then you will enjoy TAX FREE prices!

 

2. If you wanna buy JP stuffs online with a TAX FREE price, the JP retailers must send your parcel with tracking number and claim the FULL PRICE in the invoice! Then the retailers must give the full priced invoices from JP Post with tracking number to JP government to approve THEY DO SHIP THOSE PARCELS TO OVERSEA CUSTOMERS and then the retailers will get tax free for these oversea deals 

 

Denimio does not meet both conditions and they fake invoices for many oversea customers (that means Denimio can not get a "Tax-Free-Deal" from JP government)  which means they make UNFAIR/LOWER THAN JP RETAIL price by themselves (because they eat off the tax cost ) that is why Miki of Full Count asked him to raise up the price at least to the JP retail price with tax . Many brands already give Denimio warnings many many times and wait for his legal movement over a year but Denimio still insist on " Lower Than JP Price System" so that is the major reason why more brands cut off the dealership

 

Not only oversea dealers complaint about Denimio as well as many JP dealers complaint about Denimio because of the UNFAIR price they mark. Denimio is the first guy who made a "Pricing Competition" so many Rakuten stores lost their own customers just because Denimo has cheaper price, you got what i mean? Many of you living in western countries, getting benefits from "Minimum Wages System" ,if you support Denimio's UNFAIR PRICE System, why you hate illegal people in USA or somewhere who only asked for 5USD/HOUR wage for cleanning/cooking/building ect and claimed they steal your jobs? 

 

So this is why Okayama Denims still deal with many brands and ship them parcels globally, their prices are real JP retail price and go with free shipping service a'ight (even they mark down the value illegally but that is still all right...)? People want FAIR, it does not matter JP dealers or oversea dealers, of course especially many dealers oversea put a lot of efforts and million dollar into this industry ,meeting risks ect, they just want a FAIR competition, is it really an unfair issue to some of y'all?

[OptimusPrime]

Im asking about you man not them. And are you in theyre payroll? Why are you protecting them?

 

Not on their payroll and not protecting them, just speaking up as a consumer.

You want to control the prices so we consumers are just suckers and should hand over the money to you right?

Just don't be a hypocrite and pretend that you don't try to shop around yourself when it comes to other things in life, such as buying an expensive watch, a new pair of boots, a new iPad or even diapers.

People jumped on the recent sales on Caliroots and grabbed themselves some nice Warehouse jeans because they want the best value for their money. Several forum members have made very good points about this already, I don't need to comment on this topic anymore.

[OptimusPrime]

Rakuten is global now and shops on Rakuten sell products at Japanese retail price, some exclude tax some don't.
So are they supposed to shut down the Rakuten Global Market to accommodate for the retail shops outside of Japan?

[adsevil]

Rakuten is global now and shops on Rakuten sell products at Japanese retail price, some exclude tax some don't.

So are they supposed to shut down the Rakuten Global Market to accommodate for the retail shops outside of Japan?

no sir, no oversea dealers complaint even 1 rakuten store in these few years, as I said, Rakuten stores can sell products without JP Tax, but they have to claim Full Price for the parcel with tracking NO, understood? So that is why oversea customers and rakuten stores get "Tax-Free-Deal" legally

[beautiful_FrEaK]

^ I can confirm this is correct! I bought from Samurai Craft and others and when they deduct the VAT they always declare the true value of the item. Now I know why.

 

 

And thanks to advesil to bring some facts to this discussion. I didn't know hot the Tax Free system in Japan works.

[OptimusPrime]

No, not all of the Rakuten shops declare the full price, understood?

[adsevil]

No, not all of the Rakuten shops declare the full price, understood?

could you kindly give me an example/evidence  which Rakuten store gives you a tax free price and lower the value for you?

[adsevil]

^ I can confirm this is correct! I bought from Samurai Craft and others and when they deduct the VAT they always declare the true value of the item. Now I know why.

 

 

And thanks to advesil to bring some facts to this discussion. I didn't know hot the Tax Free system in Japan works.

thanks ! I think people receive well education will know what does "Fair Competition" mean

[Cold Summer]

When I first got into Japanese denim and stuff, I used to think it was weird that every Japanese store on Rakuten charged the exact same price for the same thing. I'm not a big fan of this price fixing stuff, but once i realized that the margins on most of these brands are extremely low, it made sense - most stores would go out of business if they charged anything less than the MSRP. The western retailers kinda charge what they need to in order to make enough money to continue existing.

 

Also, how in the world do places that under-value their exports on shipping forms not get caught after, like, five minutes? Export/shipping officers who look over these really don't do ten-second Google searches on stuff? This seems like a huge legal liability for businesses like Denimio.

[Cucoo]

Meh, in my experience the worst thing that can happen is that customs keeps your package and you have to show up with proof (receipt or invoice) of how much you paid. Could always be a typo on the shipping slip. Or, if your package is e.g. handled by Fedex, they will handle the customs process for you and if any VAT or customs apply, they'll pay up and then bill you afterwards. I don't think anyone in this whole process has the time or could be bothered to look up prices themselves or even go after the party that put the value on the package in the first place.

 

All these shipments from overseas to private citizens in the US or EU are small fish, I don't think anyone really cares enough to doubt and investigate the declared values. It's not like there's tens of thousands of packages with 200€ jeans declared at 20€ every day in every single customs/import office.

 

P.S. I just realized you said export officers - well those care even less, it's not their country missing out on VAT, is it?

[dwilson123]

Also, how in the world do places that under-value their exports on shipping forms not get caught after, like, five minutes? Export/shipping officers who look over these really don't do ten-second Google searches on stuff? This seems like a huge legal liability for businesses like Denimio.

 

I assume it is such small potatoes it would cost more to litigate and enforce customs than they'd actually make back