Denim Blunders, Reflections and General Nonsense.

[cmboland]

I wanted a more tapered jean since my previous ones were PBJ 005 so I'm currently wearing TFH 3002.  I really like the fit on these as well.

3009 is right in the middle. I tried 3002 and it just didnt work for me. 3002 was too tight in the thighs at 34 and too loose in the hips and waist in 36. My FHxNFxTY collabs fit perfect =]

[chicote]

One thing I find really interesting is the patternless shifting of trends within the raw denim community itself.

 

I wasn't here on Sufu in the 2000s but I have heard plenty of older users talking about times when you were recommended to size down 2 on everything, to stack & never cuff, wait 6 months before wash... etc.

 

So I guess I would like to ask the older users who were here through all of this shifting: what happened to make Sufu the way it is now, or maybe more pertinently, not the way it was then? Did people just stop posting? Was there some broader move in the fashion industry that had folks lose interest? Did everyone's tastes suddenly evolve? What role did newer denim shops (ie. Self Edge) and older ones (ie. DC4) play in the process? I'd be curious to hear people's responses, or speculation if you weren't there.

[dwilson123]

I wasn't here on Sufu in the 2000s but I have heard plenty of older users talking about times when you were recommended to size down 2 on everything, to stack & never cuff, wait 6 months before wash... etc.

 

Sounds like all the old posters must have moved to reddit to give advice

[cmboland]

Sounds like all the old posters must have moved to reddit to give advice

Man old posters must really really love unbranded.

[louisbosco]

oh shit. didnt realise that a great conversation was building here. i've scanned through it and my 2c are...

 

climate wise and temperatures.. i've lived in singapore where its humid and hot, tropical temps all year round to moving to perth where summer is as hot as 40C in summer, sometimes higher, not to mention heat waves and stuff. and i reckon that it's all about our personal body acclimatisation. because if we're not used to wearing something that thick and heavy in such weather, our body will never get used to the heat/weight of that while we're wearing it.

 

on the topic of the trend of raw denim. i agree with max that it's somewhat reached it's peak, though i've to say that it's starting to get a little mainstream due to the fact that, some people, who couldn't care less about construction or what the vintage production method is about are wearing them because it's cool to be seen in selvage denim. though i'm predicting that denim will always be a 'trend' because of the handful of us that care about production methods and nerd out to these tiny details in a pair of jeans. though i must say that, a brand will definitely not survive if they rely on the profits from these handful aka us. which i why i kinda wouldn't mind all the experimenting at all. as an example, one of my favourite brands, samurai, is know for experimenting, though not as well as the funky experiments, nogami-san is one crazy fella and he does well for his experiment products he brings out.

 

that being said, i feel that denim brands in general, not just japanese, have to focus on why they produced and sold denim in the first place. lots of time, businesses make the mark on profits and forget why did they do it in the first place. was it for the passion and love for denim or was it just for profits? i strongly believe no matter what passion for something you love is the way to go. though that might not seem plausible in the real world. 

 

2cents...

[Frost]

I'm gonna jump back a bit to the discussion of brand identity, experimentations and banner denims. 

 

I don't really care which road a brand takes, I can thoroughly enjoy and geek out about special releases but I also like the idea of a backbone that is the company's pride and joy. What I think is important is that brands have a clear vision of who they are, what they stand for, want to produce and do just that no matter what.

 

We've seen bad examples of wavering brands in the denim business too but I relate it even more to the music festival scene in Sweden. It basically died for a while because the festivals lost touch of their identity and all went to compete with the same kind of bands, same kind of set-up and pricing. Some of the festivals that died are making comebacks now, obviously downscaled A LOT, but with a huge focus on its core and idea that made them great to begin with. 

 

The denim business needs diversity but most of all it needs brands that stand firm in their belief. That's the kind of brands that will continue to have their support and survive whether we're past the denim peak or not. 

 

Fascinating point Bobbo. Brands (which I'll use as a term to include the festivals as well) are always torn between staying true to their core and evolving to attract new customers. It's a hard task, because every change obviously includes the possibility of diluting the waters enough to scare the core people away People are relucant to change, always yearning for "the good old times", and are extremely posessive of things lke that. They feel like their brand has betrayed them personally if any change happens that they don't like.

 

And I think this is even more dangerous in the field of raw denim, especially many brands that we here are interested in. As you say "the business needs diversity but most of all it needs brands that stand firm in their belief". I think we feel so strongly about this because our interest in denim is deeply rooted in the "good old times" - we want denim that looks like it's from the 50's, we want the vintage details, the vintage cuts. We are firm believers in this and ready to crucify a brand that's not up to our standard.

 

So for a brand to stay popular with the core audience, it has to stay true to it's core ideals and the history of denim. It is no coincidence that MOMOTARO has two different brands as well - Japan Blue & Soullive. These two are much more experimental than Momotaro. Of course, on some level we know that they are the same company, but it's still a good idea to keep the brand images seperate because it keeps from dilutng the core idea of the original brand. If you say you don't like Japan Blue for their modernized cuts or whatever, you can still feel comfortable to buy Momotaro. Or compare TFH detailing with RJB etc. Hell, check the Denime thread when it comes to brand loyalty. Didn't b_F himself say that Denime was now a "soulless company"? Yet he absolutely loves the products from the Shins era etc. and is a big fan of that stuff. For him, Denime have strayed too far from their original vision. (b_F: If you're reading this - this is not meant as a criticism, it was just an interesting example that popped into my head.)

 

And this is a core problem for our hobby: Many of these brands are severly limited by this, I think. It's very hard to walk the line between innovation and heritage, especially in a "genre" that is so fixated on the heritage part.

Edited October 29, 2015 by Frost

[Broark]

I think that as long as the established Japanese brands stay true to their roots then I'll be happy.

I guess my big pet peeve about the denim scene recently is the "being seen in it" aspect as opposed to actually caring about the product and the development process. I live in Austin and I've come to recognize that it's a very vein city. People care more about how they look than just about anything else. So as soon as everyone sees GQ say "BUY RAW DENiMZ" and "show the selvedge!" then all of a sudden you see every 20-to-30-something year old dude wearing Unbranded/N&F/APC, etc. while bragging that they just put their jeans in the freezer for two weeks to kill the bacteria...I promise that I hear that said at least a few times a week.

I probably sound like a crotchety old man but it bugs me when people pass along misinformation as fact because they read some fashion blog that made them the talk of the office for the week.

I know everyone has a period in time where they're new to something, and I haven't been doing this that long either. But at the same time do some ground work and research if you're actually interested. That's at least my personal approach.

That being said I hope the scene grows in a way that's conducive to learning, where people actually care enough to take the time and read through older sufu threads and other forms of archived information before they jump head first into some fad.

[Frost]

^When I went to my local store a lot of people asked me if I had hemmed my Denime too short because I'm not cuffing them anymore. They immediately thought I made a mistake instead of thinking that I didn't want to cuff and "show off" the selvedge anymore. So the vanity and trend aspect is still going strong at the moment I think.

[cmboland]

I think that as long as the established Japanese brands stay true to their roots then I'll be happy.

I guess my big pet peeve about the denim scene recently is the "being seen in it" aspect as opposed to actually caring about the product and the development process. I live in Austin and I've come to recognize that it's a very vein city. People care more about how they look than just about anything else. So as soon as everyone sees GQ say "BUY RAW DENiMZ" and "show the selvedge!" then all of a sudden you see every 20-to-30-something year old dude wearing Unbranded/N&F/APC, etc. while bragging that they just put their jeans in the freezer for two weeks to kill the bacteria...I promise that I hear that said at least a few times a week.

I probably sound like a crotchety old man but it bugs me when people pass along misinformation as fact because they read some fashion blog that made them the talk of the office for the week.

I know everyone has a period in time where they're new to something, and I haven't been doing this that long either. But at the same time do some ground work and research if you're actually interested. That's at least my personal approach.

That being said I hope the scene grows in a way that's conducive to learning, where people actually care enough to take the time and read through older sufu threads and other forms of archived information before they jump head first into some fad.

 

 

Relfection of this online would be the individuals who post [Fit Checks] constantly or those who put up fade pics every 3 weeks.

[dwilson123]

I think that as long as the established Japanese brands stay true to their roots then I'll be happy.

I guess my big pet peeve about the denim scene recently is the "being seen in it" aspect as opposed to actually caring about the product and the development process. I live in Austin and I've come to recognize that it's a very vein city. People care more about how they look than just about anything else. So as soon as everyone sees GQ say "BUY RAW DENiMZ" and "show the selvedge!" then all of a sudden you see every 20-to-30-something year old dude wearing Unbranded/N&F/APC, etc. while bragging that they just put their jeans in the freezer for two weeks to kill the bacteria...I promise that I hear that said at least a few times a week.

I probably sound like a crotchety old man but it bugs me when people pass along misinformation as fact because they read some fashion blog that made them the talk of the office for the week.

I know everyone has a period in time where they're new to something, and I haven't been doing this that long either. But at the same time do some ground work and research if you're actually interested. That's at least my personal approach.

That being said I hope the scene grows in a way that's conducive to learning, where people actually care enough to take the time and read through older sufu threads and other forms of archived information before they jump head first into some fad.

 

 

My most recent pet peeve style is the "cuff your raws really high to show off your boots" style.  It rustles me.

[setterman]

^When I went to my local store a lot of people asked me if I had hemmed my Denime too short because I'm not cuffing them anymore. They immediately thought I made a mistake instead of thinking that I didn't want to cuff and "show off" the selvedge anymore. So the vanity and trend aspect is still going strong at the moment I think.

 

I don't know that they're vain.  There's always been a lot of "you have to do it this way" in the denim world, and they're probably stuck a couple years in the past where you just HAD to cuff your jeans.

 

The denim wave has peaked, but that's a good thing. There's a lot less gimmicky shit around (though I'm amazed the ultra heavy weight denim fad still lingers on), and no more must have items coming out every other week.  The nice thing is now, at least here, that people are less regimented in how things are done, and are finding their own personal style.    

[Geeman]

One thing I find really interesting is the patternless shifting of trends within the raw denim community itself.

 

I wasn't here on Sufu in the 2000s but I have heard plenty of older users talking about times when you were recommended to size down 2 on everything, to stack & never cuff, wait 6 months before wash... etc.

 

So I guess I would like to ask the older users who were here through all of this shifting: what happened to make Sufu the way it is now, or maybe more pertinently, not the way it was then? Did people just stop posting? Was there some broader move in the fashion industry that had folks lose interest? Did everyone's tastes suddenly evolve? What role did newer denim shops (ie. Self Edge) and older ones (ie. DC4) play in the process? I'd be curious to hear people's responses, or speculation if you weren't there.

Great question, I'd like to hear the old heads opinion on this?

Personally I think men are now far more aware of correct fitting clothes now, (especially a group like us fixated with clothing!) We've learnt through experience (read: expensive mistakes ) that a correctly fitting jean with correct inseam and thigh size is the way to go and not loose stacked or skinny 3/4 lengths!

Let's be honest though we are all influenced by fashions / trends to a certain extent, we wear our clothes one way then we see someone trying something new be it a higher cuff or looser cut, whatever and think that looks good let's give it a try! Thats how a trend develops. The difference though is admitting a look doesn't work for you and going back to what you are comfortable in as opposed to trying to pull it off to appeal to the current norm.

[dwilson123]

(though I'm amazed the ultra heavy weight denim fad still lingers on)

 

I think that fad or trend is the most long standing because it is quantifiable.  You can't quantify construction.  You can't quantify slub.  You can't quantify almost anything for why your jeans cost $250.  But if they're 20+ oz suddenly you have an actual hard number to justify the cost.

[Maynard Friedman]

I'm not sure heavyweight denim is necessarily a fad, it seems to have a fan base, albeit a niche one, that will persist in wearing it. Denim weight has gradually crept up from the 9oz workwear fabric common in the late 19th/early 20th centuries to the extent where 14-15oz is standard nowadays (I'm talking premium denim here, not mass market, high street stuff). Why shouldn't another increase be sustainable for heavier weight devotees?

To qualify somewhat, I believe this relates primarily to 18-21oz denim. Anything beyond that is simply not very practical for most people and is a niche within a niche, a 'nichette' perhaps!

[chicote]

Great question, I'd like to hear the old heads opinion on this?

Personally I think men are now far more aware of correct fitting clothes now, (especially a group like us fixated with clothing!) We've learnt through experience (read: expensive mistakes ) that a correctly fitting jean with correct inseam and thigh size is the way to go and not loose stacked or skinny 3/4 lengths!

Let's be honest though we are all influenced by fashions / trends to a certain extent, we wear our clothes one way then we see someone trying something new be it a higher cuff or looser cut, whatever and think that looks good let's give it a try! Thats how a trend develops. The difference though is admitting a look doesn't work for you and going back to what you are comfortable in as opposed to trying to pull it off to appeal to the current norm.

 

Your last point is spot on... and I think that resistance to "admitting a look doesn't work for you" is becoming apparent with a large demographic of raw denim wearers: those who (mostly) joined during its peak popularity and, for one reason or another (maybe just the time commitment denim requires) are riding it out as it starts to settle again. I don't have anything empirical to back up this point except the huge number of "fit checks" and stuff that Cmboland mentioned from folks that are trying super hard to make the trendy slim-tapered thing work. And I don't think it actually works for many people. But there's certainly some loath to admit it, to feel you've been suckered into a trend, to admit you blew money on a relatively expensive product, and to realize that, despite your efforts, you don't necessarily "fit" the cool personage of the day, and all are pretty difficult things to come to terms with. So I wonder who decides what is the cool fit of the hour in this scene, because the fact that different (or even similar) bodies look good in radically different cuts seems secondary to the idea that all bodies can look good in a single style.

 

At the same time, I'm really happy to see these random posters in the stickied threads asking for fit advice, because it shows there is a  demographic of people who are conscious of the mythology of this one-cut-fits-all idea without necessarily being as involved in the scene as the regulars here. So what is the turning point? Is denim necessarily a slow-evolving thing because it's necessary to invest so much time into each pair? Can one be a long-term wearer of any particular pair and still remain on-trend? Is the scene changing more slowly now that we've moved beyond the era of sandpapering and otherwise speeding-up the way your jeans fade? I'm not sure what the salient point of this post is, but it's raising for me a lot of questions about the more social and psychological elements of raw denim in the larger fashion scene.

[Ciabatta]

I'm still forever on the search for the perfect fit and fabric. I'm also coming to terms that that most slim cuts don't work for my thighs.

[JohnM]

Same here Ciabatta.  Buying jeans (or any other clothing item) without trying it on is a trial and error thing.  It takes time to get it right.  The fabrics available are great, but fit takes effort, especially when buying raw, given shrinkage and stretch.  Most of what I bought initially was too slim and low rise.  With time and input from you all, I learned to measure and pay more attention. So I've sold some stuff, bought some, and found myself appreciating the insights of this group, as evidenced by this thread.

[itsbenhere]

One thing I find really interesting is the patternless shifting of trends within the raw denim community itself.

 

I wasn't here on Sufu in the 2000s but I have heard plenty of older users talking about times when you were recommended to size down 2 on everything, to stack & never cuff, wait 6 months before wash... etc.

 

So I guess I would like to ask the older users who were here through all of this shifting: what happened to make Sufu the way it is now, or maybe more pertinently, not the way it was then? Did people just stop posting? Was there some broader move in the fashion industry that had folks lose interest? Did everyone's tastes suddenly evolve? What role did newer denim shops (ie. Self Edge) and older ones (ie. DC4) play in the process? I'd be curious to hear people's responses, or speculation if you weren't there.

 

Pretty sure back in the good ol' days APC is what popularized raw denim. I don't know personally since I've never had a pair, but they supposedly stretched out a lot. Whether they would stretch out so much if you didn't size them dick tight, I'm not sure... but if you have a bunch of guys that have cool fades and have been on a forum a lot longer than you, and they tell you this is what you're supposed to do, then I'd probably listen too.

 

And the non-washing thing came because APC denim is obviously shitty and can't hold up to "frequent" washing, if you did then they would end up a bland light blue. By telling people never to wash, you can convince your customers that your denim actually has character and can age in a way to show your personality. Which is bull, anything will age if you never wash it.

 

I think that this line of thinking stopped because as people got into unsanforized denim the old "rules" just don't work anymore. The jeans are still as ugly as they used to be when you'd never wash them, but now as soon as you wash them they're going to shrink to a point where they're unwearable. If you read a thread and dozens of people have had to sell their jeans at a huge loss because they didn't get shrink out, hopefully you wise up. And when you realize that a wash does nothing other than make your jeans clean, tell you the true size they are, and help them age in a way that looks natural, then that route looks damn good.

[bradl]

One thing I find really interesting is the patternless shifting of trends within the raw denim community itself.

I wasn't here on Sufu in the 2000s but I have heard plenty of older users talking about times when you were recommended to size down 2 on everything, to stack & never cuff, wait 6 months before wash... etc.

So I guess I would like to ask the older users who were here through all of this shifting: what happened to make Sufu the way it is now, or maybe more pertinently, not the way it was then? Did people just stop posting? Was there some broader move in the fashion industry that had folks lose interest? Did everyone's tastes suddenly evolve? What role did newer denim shops (ie. Self Edge) and older ones (ie. DC4) play in the process? I'd be curious to hear people's responses, or speculation if you weren't there.

Sufu use to have an old format, they switched to the current interface and it pissed off a lot of people and people stopped posting. I didn't post or lurk much after the switch so Don't know all the details, but I'm sure others can shed light on it

But when I first joined it was downsize two for PS if you could do three that was even cooler, sag them halfway down your ass and stacks on stacks. Checking back on one of my ps it has a 28 waist. Granted I was skinnier back in highschool, but it was brutal off the start.

Edited October 30, 2015 by bradl

[Sugar Mountain]

Remember as well that the changes you see manifested in Superdenim trends over the years have not occurred in a hermetically sealed environment. The early years of Sufu featured a more streetwear-influenced aesthetic that mixed APC or Diors with JP street brands like Wtaps and then Nike SBs and this mirrored more mainstream street fashion. Over the years, there has been a wider move in men's fashion trends towards a conceivably more ''authentic'' and rugged look typified by beards, flannels, boots and yes, selvedge denim. This look has even made it to adverts for Clarks shoes and mobile phones and is everywhere you look on Instagram. Many of us are essentially rocking a much more refined and premium version of this general aesthetic - as much as I'm loath to admit it.

 

But the environment we see on Superdenim these days is also the result, as I've said before, of a much more diversified range of options for discussing raw denim on the internet. Generally, the interest on here is for the core of Japanese brands that embody a vintage-ish style and draw influence from American work and casual wear 1940-1970. The crowd is more mature than it used to be - you rarely even see somebody getting negged anymore - and people are finding what works for them in terms of cut, fabrics and washing routines for their jeans. All good things.

[bradl]

Yeah, I just recovered recently from all them neg happy posters from back in the day...

[garden gnomes in space]

was gonna neg you for that comment but decided to set an example.

[DhaDha]

a point often overlooked in sizing unsanforized denim: in my experience the waist always stretch back to almost or beyond pre soak measurement, something in which not a lot of people take into consideration and out of all denim boutique only selfedge seems to acknowledge it. 

[apba1166]

For some of us, the vintage aspect, mentioned above, is key. There seems to be two kinds of approaches....1) complete and authentic reproduction down to the details, the threads and stitching and machines and so on (of course not taking into the account the decades of experience the old textile workers had for better or worse, meaning it can both lead to high skill but also boredom and error); 2) design and construction based on those vintage pieces but "improving" upon them...whether in design (pocket depth or placement, belt loops, or make (e.g., the polycore threads, the actual denim of course, etc).

 

That's how I got into it...Looking for jeans that were like the tough rigid ones I grew up with (yes, I'm that far gone--in years only) and hated then because you had to break them in but wanted to "re-live" such experience now. As I began reading how enthusiastic others were about all sorts of other cuts and denim and so on it made me curious--this passion and interest in something I had long forgotten--and so now I have all sorts of jeans. I am not so interested in the fades/identity aspect (but completely understand that, and felt that way when I was teenager, without knowing it or being able to articulate it then, or hardly now) as much as just the intricacy of so many variations possible and the choosing what you prefer for yourself--picking among many good options. And yes, the aging process adds to that variety and interest, so you have to wear them, hard, sometimes to even know.

 

The "Choice" is often as meaningful as the use (wearing them). There are people who get most excited when choosing a new book or starting a new affair. There are others who find the value deep in and long-term. And then of course many who enjoy both. There is an interesting book called The Paradox of Choice...the premise of which, along with how we make choices and how we process them, is that even as choice proliferates, personal freedom and happiness does not always follow because of the angst some feel in making a decision between 100 choices versus three. and when they have made it, the feeling that there is still something better out there they have not seen or want to know about. Others as soon as they pick, that's their thing, and they feel good about it right off and forever. And all the many of us in-between.

[dwilson123]

Pretty sure back in the good ol' days APC is what popularized raw denim. I don't know personally since I've never had a pair, but they supposedly stretched out a lot. Whether they would stretch out so much if you didn't size them dick tight, I'm not sure... but if you have a bunch of guys that have cool fades and have been on a forum a lot longer than you, and they tell you this is what you're supposed to do, then I'd probably listen too.

 

I have a pair of APC and I didn't really notice they stretched out any more or less than most other denim I own.  The double size down may be more a product of APC being (or previously was, I don't keep up with them) vanity sized.  So my APCs are size 27 when I actually wore size 29 at the time.

[apba1166]

So all this gets me back to the topic of....Blunders.

My biggest blunder: I didn't realize there could be so many fits. In the past, I went to the store, took 3 34s into the dressing room and bought the one that fit best. That was about what I knew about fit. So I was pretty amazed that the fit on a lot of the jeans depended on rise--front and rear--thigh, hem, fabric weight, waist, etc. and how divergent it all seemed, whether 32-33-34-35-36...well, so many just didn't fit. I was even more amazed that so many brands could stay in business with jeans that didn't fit. At least for me. At least the way I thought jeans should fit (thinking I have since adjusted). And I am fairly normal sized. Yet I persisted, compounding the blunder by buying stuff I thought MIGHT fit, or might BREAK IN and fit, or might Shrink down and fit, and so on.

 

This is even a bigger blunder when I tell you the first jeans I bought beyond Levi's shrink to fit were in-store at Self Edge, AB Fits, and Blue in Green some years ago...where to each store's credit they knew exactly what size in what jean would fit me how I liked jeans to fit post-wash. Kudos to the people working there. I have high regard for all of them. I should have never bought anything online: It was buying online from measurements, often different from what I measured, whether from stores or individuals that cost me...though re-selling was pretty quick and painless in most cases.

 

Now I judge more from fitpics....or re-tailor (-engineer) them if I like them enough...but even so....

[cmboland]

You know what? I really want to go to Pronto Denim Carnival one day. Seems like a far shot goal but it would be awesome.

 

EDIT: Also! I discovered Aho is from very close proximity of my dwelling. Small small world friends

Edited November 2, 2015 by cmboland

[Sugar Mountain]

I've just seen photos through Iron Heart of the Pronto Carnival and also really want to go - seems to get bigger and better each year. Much shorter journey time for me so I have little excuse!

[louisbosco]

seems to get bigger and better each year. 

 

exactly what i commented on the IHF. the crowd looks way more than when i went 2years back.

[Sugar Mountain]

I have a feeling Thailand is basically bankrolling the Japanese repro denim industry right about now. All of the major players are directing a lot of time and resource in Bangkok's direction.