Shoes that look better with age...

[cultpop 0217]

Added some dark brown Vibram half soles to my 1960s Frye boots. 

 

 

[Broark]

I know I’ve said this a few times before, but Russell has really gone off the deep end with their updated pricing. They just announced they’re offering the Clays sporting chukka as part of their MTO program, pricing starts at $715 and goes all the way up to $805 for bison leather and different sole options. Didn’t these used to be between $300-$450? I know labor and materials are both more expensive than ever, but it seems a bit excessive. Borderline Viberg pricing.

[mlwdp]

Danner has increased their prices too.  I remember when you could get a pair of mtn lights for $300-330. Now, they’re $400-440. Wow.  Same with Whites.  Semi Dress has gone up and so has a pair a smoke jumpers.

[julian-wolf]

Yep, I’ve stopped looking at any new / full price Russells

They’re great moccasins but not $800 great, and given the coincidence of their recent restructuring it’s very hard to imagine that much of the increase in revenue is going to the workers anyway

[willi]

I think they were just selling sporting clays ready to wear for less than $600, within the last year? Not sure there is a great alternative though?

[Broark]

3 minutes ago, willi said:

Not sure there is a great alternative though?

Yeah that's the problem. I've always wanted a pair of the Clays but not at that price.
And there aren't really any alternatives out there. At least that I'm aware of.

[julian-wolf]

I wish there were alternatives.

I really like Town View for simple soft sole mocs, and there’s a few options for Wallabee style joints, but there really doesn’t seem to be anyone else doing a great job of general all-purpose  rubber-soled high- and low-tops and everything in between

[jkbrwn]

Yuketen is much the same. I've owned a handful of pairs over the years and still have a couple of them left. I paid $450 for their Angler back in 2020 and they're now $850. I know times have changed but jeez. That particular shoe isn't even made in Maine anymore, but instead in Italy...

[Broark]

Yup Yuketen is a great example as well, I hardly look at them anymore given the pricing structure.
Unfortunate because they're some of my favorite fitting shoes.

[willi]

Made in USA footwear is just in a bad place right now. If you need new shoes you just have to pinch your nose and pay what they're asking for. It's good motivation to enjoy what you already own and take care of it. Maybe Japan will fill a niche like they have for every other classic American style. Russell has a following there.

[MJF9]

The poor GBP exchange rate makes that price hikes even worse over our side of the pond

[AlientoyWorkmachine]

I wish I could see the balance sheet of a company like Russell. On the one hand, I could believe that a good pair of boots costs $800 to make sure Russell stays sustainable, but is not being greedy. But I’d want to know what sort of lifestyle that affords the cobbler and other employees - and not the few at the top.

I know that I have more shoes than I need, and probably more shoes than most people had historically. With the exception of training shoes, I quite possibly could not wear out my current collection if I never bought another pair - especially if I can resole. All told in terms of retail expenditure, my shoes and boots equal at least a few pairs of Russels. (I’d wager I’m not alone here in that). I think it’s also worth mentioning that the weak Yen has definitely spoiled me - to the point that I’m aware that my appreciation for even the best goods goes down, and I have too much. I enjoy everything I’ve got and try to give it all fair use in the spirit it was made, but it’s more than needed - much, much more.

If I had my druthers better, I’d own less stuff and want the makers of what I have to be able to live a little bit closer to the life I get to live, even as my own industry suffers extreme downward pressure from multiple forces.

This isn’t to excuse price gouging - I don’t know enough to know where it’s happening - but it’s just to note that I do feel that even in our world of well made, small batch goods that carries an ethos of extended and prolific use - we are still awash in stuff. Or at least some of us are - and so where does the sense of fair value come from? When I first started taking an interest in clothes I bought more MiUSA things, which at that point were more comparable in cost to Japanese goods. Somewhere along the way it became less important - probably as the Yen weakened and I became more interested in arcane details I couldn’t find here. At that point, the relative cost (for American or Japanese) was also much higher - I had less income and the prices were stiff even before inflation. Even as I find some of the older items more lacking now because of my own knowledge and preferences deepening, they were appreciated in a different way.

And so through that lens, $800 boots that are handmade and part of the local economy may indeed not be so far off, and may represent a fair value (they may not if the CEO of Russell is taking home $100 to every dollar the cobbler takes).

Not that I don’t see why it’s an issue. I can’t get my head around ever spending that much on boots (my max ever was around $375, and I just don’t like them enough). But, I sure could see a world where for a good pair, instead I had to outlay the same as I did for a few pairs in my closet (that add up to $800) and live with that limitation. 

How’s that for some ambivalence? 

Edited October 25 by AlientoyWorkmachine

[Duke Mantee]

If we don’t know what an item entails, is it fair to say that item is expensive? I totally understand something might be unaffordable but that’s really not the same thing.

What about trying to break the thing down and examine the value?

 

[Broark]

That's a fair argument, but when something increases in MSRP by ~130% over the course of a few years it just makes me pause.
Did every material increase in cost by 100%? If so then they need to rethink their sourcing process.
Did workers receive pay raises and / or benefits that account for this cost? If not then I have even more questions about the new price.
I guess there's an inherent difference in what is "expensive" and what I see as the personal perceived value.

[jkbrwn]

6 minutes ago, Broark said:

That's a fair argument, but when something increases in MSRP by ~130% over the course of a few years it just makes me pause.
Did every material increase in cost by 100%? If so then they need to rethink their sourcing process.
Did workers receive pay raises and / or benefits that account for this cost? If not then I have even more questions about the new price.
I guess there's an inherent difference in what is "expensive" and what I see as the personal perceived value.

With Yuketen specifically, this is kind of where I'm at. Because its not just Yuketen, its Monitaly too. Prices of everything manufactured by Meg Co. (Yuk, Monitaly, Epperson Mountaineering, Chamula) have all skyrocketed in price. I used to be acquaintances with Yuki and have met him several times and so like his brands a lot, but nothing with the product has changed other than its country of origin - with Yuketen specifically. So with this umbrella of brands, it feels a little bit like an exclusivity price rather than the product being 'worth' that amount.

https://www.monitaly.com/shop-tops/p/native-vest-sarape

$506 for a 'native' vest that is simply constructed of a fabric they've purchased from someone else? My Chimayo was I think $180 from Ortega's in actual Chimayo, NM where the fabric was actually woven and manufactured. Agree on the expensive vs perceived value for sure.

[willi]

Agree with the distinction between 'expensive' and 'unaffordable'. I don't have an opinion about whether a shoe is expensive, or 'worth' the sum of its parts. Also think that the value of a shoe, or any clothing, is more than the sum of its components and incorporates its cultural value and emotional durability. My concern in this case is very specific, and it's that the market for mocs has rapidly stratified in a way that an item I've considered a daily use staple and a design classic is now a luxury good and a status symbol. Russell now pitches itself as serving an elite club, paraphrasing recent marketing emails. Maybe that's where the market needed to go for this product to exist, but it's a bummer.

[Duke Mantee]

35 minutes ago, Broark said:

That's a fair argument, but when something increases in MSRP by ~130% over the course of a few years it just makes me pause.
Did every material increase in cost by 100%? If so then they need to rethink their sourcing process.
Did workers receive pay raises and / or benefits that account for this cost? If not then I have even more questions about the new price.
I guess there's an inherent difference in what is "expensive" and what I see as the personal perceived value.

Are we considering how much ‘markup’ affects all this

[Broark]

3 minutes ago, Duke Mantee said:

Are we considering how much ‘markup’ affects all this

At least 50%, right?

[Duke Mantee]

1 minute ago, Broark said:

At least 50%, right?

250% 🤫

Basically it doesn’t take much movement of the baseline to create some heavy duty variations up top … using percentages really (deliberately) fucks things up

Edited October 25 by Duke Mantee

[Broark]

11 minutes ago, Duke Mantee said:

using percentages really (deliberately) fucks things up

I am quite familiar with this, should've taken that into consideration when I made my original post.
Long story short, Russell make some nice shoes. Do I find them to be worth $700-$800? No, not really.

[Maynard Friedman]

1 hour ago, willi said:

Also think that the value of a shoe, or any clothing, is more than the sum of its components

Is this a synergistic gain or just synergistic cobblers?

[indigoeagle]

Is anyone knowledgeable on the black Red Wing leathers?
For engineers the main ones seem to be RW Chrome and Klondike.
The fades look a bit different.
2268 from the 90s with Chrome leather

 

 

The 2966 with Klondike leather.

The 9060 is a flat toe Beckmans, also with Klondike. It was recently offered in US stores and last year in some European shops in relation with the Munich store anniversary.
But it's mostly sold out now.
It has been available in Japan for many years. I think, it was also RW Japan, that had developed it.
Mr Suzuki of Two Monkeys and Ol Shanks amongs other had a hand in it, if I remember correctly.
Perhaps we'll see it in the European shops next year. Not sure, how popular it would be.
It also looks nice worn.

[Alec Leamas]

Those Beckmans look lovely!

[yung_flynn]

15 hours ago, indigoeagle said:

Is anyone knowledgeable on the black Red Wing leathers?

There is also Black Excalibur which is used on the new Beckman (9423), Black Harness used on the 8074 moc toe and 8084 Iron Ranger, and Black Prairie used on the 8849. I do not know much about RW and SB Foot leathers so I can't give much more detail than this. I do believe that the Black Prairie is tea-core black with a brown core like the Black Chrome and Klondike, while the Black Harness is struck through. I do not know about the Black Excalibur.

I agree with @Alec Leamas though that the Black Klondike on the Beckman 9060 looks really nice. I've been going back and forth on grabbing a 9060 flatbox for myself since I found a rare pair in size 13 from a US stockist or going with the non-flatbox Cigar Excalibur 9422 (or I may pivot completely and go with a Whites SD). I always deliberate over these types of decisions ad nauseam.

[Jared_Lee]

The Red Wing 9060 Flatbox in a teacore black is one of the absolute best bang for buck boots out there. It has style elements of boots twice and three times its price, MiUSA and a generally good fit. I wanted a pair badly back in 2017/2018 when they were a Japan exclusive. No need for them now as I have the Lofgren M-43 in black, but had these been available in the US for $400 back then, I would have been all over it.

[indigoeagle]

6 hours ago, yung_flynn said:

There is also Black Excalibur which is used on the new Beckman (9423), Black Harness used on the 8074 moc toe and 8084 Iron Ranger, and Black Prairie used on the 8849. I do not know much about RW and SB Foot leathers so I can't give much more detail than this. I do believe that the Black Prairie is tea-core black with a brown core like the Black Chrome and Klondike, while the Black Harness is struck through. I do not know about the Black Excalibur.

Apparently the Klondike is shinier than the Black Prairie and the contrast is also bigger with the Klondike between the black and brown.
 

[indigoeagle]

Anyone familiar with Cruxdeluxe? They have good looking boots.
But I'm still unsure about the sizing for the Boondockers.

[indigoeagle]

Talking about the Black Klondike leather.
I just saw this pic of the 9870, which is the Irish Setter Round Toe in Klondike.
The owner had the crepe wedge sole changed to a Beckman style.
They have about ten years of wear.

In the Beckmans of ten years or so ago there was also a black version, the 9014 in that Featherstone leather.

Edited October 29 by indigoeagle

[Double 0 Soul]

Hey @coleslawyum do you still have your ox blood Railman's?

Here are mine albeit, not worn for nearly a decade

[yung_flynn]

I decided to snag the RW 9060 flatboxes since I rarely see them in size 13 for my 13.25 Brannock larger foot. Franklin & Poe still had a wide range of available sizes last time I checked. I like them so far. The fit kind of reminds me of barefoot shoes