Levi's Vintage Clothing

[superhero]

great fit sayocean, is that pre soak??? coz they actually do shrink and ur nuts will be crushed beyond oblivion!

47s are such a classic fit

[Goominim]

great fit sayocean, is that pre soak??? coz they actually do shrink and ur nuts will be crushed beyond oblivion!

47s are such a classic fit

How much would 34.5" actual waist shrink on the '47 LVC?

[sayocean]

thanks guys, it is after one hot soak. They used to fit me two years ago before i gained some weight. Lost some weight since then and now they somewhat fit again. The waist was nuts but its stretched to near perfection now.

[Sansome1877]

Mmmm, very interest to hear about the arcuate stitch. I've heard suggestions that this design might have turned up on other manufacturers before Levi's; obviously, plenty of people used it in the late 1800s.

Can't wait for a proper chat with Mike, and to hear more, in the meantime here are the 201 photos he sent me. THese are very interesting, having an early-style single-stitched yoke, together with the later, 2-horse linen patch, but with an early form of the wording - these say *Patent Riveted" in the top banner.

I am guessing are from a similar period to Levi's "dead man's pants" which date to 1893 (or at least, their owner met with a fatal accident on that date). I am staring to wonder whether the 200 series, which of course were cheaper, must have sold a lot more than the 500 series, as so many more seem to be coming out of the woodwork lately. Do tell us more, though, Mike!

The dead mans pants and these #2's should be pretty close, these 2's have the old patent rivets and old style patch. I have heard the 2's and the double xx got the lot numbers put on in 1890? Has LVC made a pant like this one? The 2's have no selvage on the legs, only on the waist band. We found a article in 1890 when the ladies that sew the pants went on strike at levi's factory. The ladies said they made double xx and 2's.

[Paul T]

No, Levi's haven't reproduced a model from this era.

THere's a 1890 501, which has the later "Copper riveted" as opposed to "patent riveted" 2-horse patch.

And no early 201.

It looks like that earlier version doesn't have 'Every garment guaranteed" on it, does that look right? And no separate space for the size.

INteresting that the price list has only the 2 and xx, later the 200 and 500xx series. I wonder if the 'Nevada' style, with the different pockets etc, morphed into the 2 model.

It's great that you've gone back to the original sources. V interested to see results of research on the fabric you mentioned.

[Sansome1877]

Mmmm, very interest to hear about the arcuate stitch. I've heard suggestions that this design might have turned up on other manufacturers before Levi's; obviously, plenty of people used it in the late 1800s.

Can't wait for a proper chat with Mike, and to hear more, in the meantime here are the 201 photos he sent me. THese are very interesting, having an early-style single-stitched yoke, together with the later, 2-horse linen patch, but with an early form of the wording - these say *Patent Riveted" in the top banner.

I am guessing are from a similar period to Levi's "dead man's pants" which date to 1893 (or at least, their owner met with a fatal accident on that date). I am staring to wonder whether the 200 series, which of course were cheaper, must have sold a lot more than the 500 series, as so many more seem to be coming out of the woodwork lately. Do tell us more, though, Mike!

I think I have a possible answer for more 2's and 201's showing up in the late 1880's and 90's. Mines in the west were starting to play them selves out, also the price of silver went way down. Pants during this time seem to be mended more. I think it would be interesting to find out if the dry goods stores out in the mill and mining towns gave a discount when they sold 201's or 501's, my guess is no but you know the retailers were getting a price break. Did you know that most of the pant legs were cut off and used to mend steam pipes and fresh air pipes, tar or clay was use to hold the denim in place. Twine was used also.

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[Sansome1877]

No, Levi's haven't reproduced a model from this era.

THere's a 1890 501, which has the later "Copper riveted" as opposed to "patent riveted" 2-horse patch.

And no early 201.

It looks like that earlier version doesn't have 'Every garment guaranteed" on it, does that look right? And no separate space for the size.

INteresting that the price list has only the 2 and xx, later the 200 and 500xx series. I wonder if the 'Nevada' style, with the different pockets etc, morphed into the 2 model.

It's great that you've gone back to the original sources. V interested to see results of research on the fabric you mentioned.

Never seen in person the 201 patch that you show, I don't think the Nevada jean morphed but if it did, it came back in 1890, I have proof of that. I had a tool pocket pair two years ago with allot of the same type of damage. The one I had dates to about 1877 or 78, two un mailed letters were in the pocket with 1873 to 1878 stamps. I also knew that it was impossible to be later than 1878. I think the nevada jean is the oldest jean in the Levi archive. That's only a guess.

[Sansome1877]

No, Levi's haven't reproduced a model from this era.

THere's a 1890 501, which has the later "Copper riveted" as opposed to "patent riveted" 2-horse patch.

And no early 201.

It looks like that earlier version doesn't have 'Every garment guaranteed" on it, does that look right? And no separate space for the size.

INteresting that the price list has only the 2 and xx, later the 200 and 500xx series. I wonder if the 'Nevada' style, with the different pockets etc, morphed into the 2 model.

It's great that you've gone back to the original sources. V interested to see results of research on the fabric you mentioned.

I would like to know when the every garment guaranteed first shoed up. 1890?You really have to dig into the obscure western news papers to find the Levi's ads. The Daily Alta, didn't start having allot of Levi ads until the mid 1890's. Any one with any free time should look for Levi ads in Nevada

mining town papers. I have not had the time yet.

[beautiful_FrEaK]

as informative your posts are, please don't always quote the same pics.

no offense, it's just a bit confusing and clutters the thread.

but don't stop writing about all you know

[Paul T]

as informative your posts are, please don't always quote the same pics.

no offense, it's just a bit confusing and clutters the thread.

but don't stop writing about all you know

I take your point, I'm normally against it. But for people who care (Ok, maybe there's only a few of us), being able to compare those two linen patches is like gold-dust, worth hundreds of photos of modern jeans. I already got a private email from someone concerned with Levi's asking for more info.

[beautiful_FrEaK]

ok fair point. of course I find those more interesting than the modern jeans. I'm with you on that point.

So Levi's is paying attention to us here? Or did he write to you for a different reason?

[Paul T]

ok fair point. of course I find those more interesting than the modern jeans. I'm with you on that point.

So Levi's is paying attention to us here? Or did he write to you for a different reason?

Hey, people at Levi's waste time at work checking out this site, just like I do! Yes, someone asked about that early 201 photo.

Now I gotta go, my family will starve. Mike, fab you've turned up, look forward to chatting with you soon...

[silencejoe]

Thanks!! Mike and Paul !!

That's why I love this thread so much!!!

[jewellben]

How much would 34.5" actual waist shrink on the '47 LVC?

From my personal experience, I lost nearly 2" on the waist but over 3.5" on the leg when shrurk with a warm bath method.

[josh mullen]

^^^^^^^my latest 47s shrunk down from 38.5" to 35.5" after a couple really hot soaks with a little agitation.

[airportlobbytx]

If I don't soak a pair of 1966s, should I be able to get an inch of stretch on the waist over the tagged size? Ordered a super cheap pair on a whim.

[Rob]

You should be OK.,my 2008 1966 are tagged 36, pre soak 36.5. Even after a soak they stretched to 37

[EA1R]

If I don't soak a pair of 1966s, should I be able to get an inch of stretch on the waist over the tagged size? Ordered a super cheap pair on a whim.

Sure, you should be ok. Congrats on your buy, by the way. I love the 66', but reading this thread I start to think that I'm the only one:)

I think I need to get the 55' the next time, just so I can take part in the discussion in the thread...

Have fun!

[Sansome1877]

MIke, I forgot to mention, but a friend of mine has found a painting with a verified date, of a cowboy wearing denim. NO rivets visibile, but it comes from the 1850s, definitely pre 1860s. Who knows, but it might suggest that Levi's-style denim pants were very common in the decades before Jacon Davis decided to add rivets.

He's very cagey about revealing more, but I have kept meaning to visit him and verify the date. I have a deadline next week, but after that, I think I shall visit him.

Again, great to see your contributions on here.

I have seen around 20 waist bands and some full pairs of denim pants, that

were before the Levi patent. All but one had a split back, none of the pants had watch pockets or back pockets. I think it's possible that Jacob Davis was the first one to put a watch pocket and a back pocket on a pair of denim pants. The 20 or so pre Levi patent pants that I saw ,date from around 1869 to 1872. There is a great picture in the book, The West by

by Geoffrey C. Ward. This picture is on page 218 and shows the Union Pacific survey crew climbing a rock face in 1868. Two or three men seem like they are wearing denim pants, I can see no back pockets. It's way to early to draw any conclusions, but it's a start. I can't post any pictures yet but I will send you one that you can post of a pre Levi patent pant. I have a Levi ad from may 9th 1874 when Levi made only pants. At the bottom of the add it says none genuine unless bearing our copyrighted leather label ap 18-3m. We took ap 18-3m and did a search at the library of congress, it came back with what Levi's first label said. Levi Strauss & Co. Sole proprietors and manufacturers of the patented riveted duck and denim pants. I will send a picture of the add, you can post this one to.

[Sansome1877]

Nice I went 4 months or so before mine hit water, Heres what they look like now. I think they're about a year and a half into it now?

Congrats I love mine....

Do these have denim pocket bags? Thanks the pants look great

[Dr_Heech]

@Sansome1877

Lovin this early Levis info from you, cant wait to see more waistband/patch photos!

@Paul

Going to Camden market tomorrow for a wander, so see if I can find anything interesting? Any suggestions of good vintage shops?

@Airfrog

Love your 1886 photos. Gonna put my 1886's up on ebay next week.

.

[Goominim]

Anyone have photos of what the "Oldest Oldest" were based on?

[Sansome1877]

Anyone have photos of what the "Oldest Oldest" were based on?

I need to see good pictures of this oldest oldest pant. I need to know all of the wording on the patch. Does it have denim pocket bags. The stitch that holds the cinch buckle on is important. I have a feeling the age on this pant is off. Is this information already on this thread?

[Mr Black]

Dr Heech, had a mooch there the other day. One of the stalls on the slope up to the proud gallery had a new pair of raw 44's for a v good price (think they were 85 quid.

[Paul T]

I havent' seen the Oldest Oldest in the flesh, it turned up after I went to the Levi's archives. IIRC Lynn D dates this to the 1880s.

Will be interested to see your thoughts. Levi's say this is the earliest XX they have. At first they thought the 'Nevada' jean and cotton duck youth's overall were the earliest. Now they seem tho think this is as early.

Airfrog's pants, by the way, seem off to me (No offene allen, so are some of mine!) in that they have the 2-horse patch. I believe it should be the first one

Dr H, sorry, I don't do Camden any more - last time I went was three years ago and it was a shadow of its former self - hopefully it's revived. If so, tell us!

[Sansome1877]

I have seen around 20 waist bands and some full pairs of denim pants, that

were before the Levi patent. All but one had a split back, none of the pants had watch pockets or back pockets. I think it's possible that Jacob Davis was the first one to put a watch pocket and a back pocket on a pair of denim pants. The 20 or so pre Levi patent pants that I saw ,date from around 1869 to 1872. There is a great picture in the book, The West by

by Geoffrey C. Ward. This picture is on page 218 and shows the Union Pacific survey crew climbing a rock face in 1868. Two or three men seem like they are wearing denim pants, I can see no back pockets. It's way to early to draw any conclusions, but it's a start. I can't post any pictures yet but I will send you one that you can post of a pre Levi patent pant. I have a Levi ad from may 9th 1874 when Levi made only pants. At the bottom of the add it says none genuine unless bearing our copyrighted leather label ap 18-3m. We took ap 18-3m and did a search at the library of congress, it came back with what Levi's first label said. Levi Strauss & Co. Sole proprietors and manufacturers of the patented riveted duck and denim pants. I will send a picture of the ad, you can post this one to.

Tehama Independent Saturday May 9th 1874

[Sansome1877]

I havent' seen the Oldest Oldest in the flesh, it turned up after I went to the Levi's archives. IIRC Lynn D dates this to the 1880s.

Will be interested to see your thoughts. Levi's say this is the earliest XX they have. At first they thought the 'Nevada' jean and cotton duck youth's overall were the earliest. Now they seem tho think this is as early.

Airfrog's pants, by the way, seem off to me (No offene allen, so are some of mine!) in that they have the 2-horse patch. I believe it should be the first one

Dr H, sorry, I don't do Camden any more - last time I went was three years ago and it was a shadow of its former self - hopefully it's revived. If so, tell us!

Give me a hour to break this down. I can't see how this is possible. I need to know if the watch pocket sits on the waist band or below.

[Paul T]

Give me a hour to break this down. I can't see how this is possible. I need to know if the watch pocket sits on the waist band or below.

Sadly it's the only shot I have. My guess if has the watch pocket just under the watchband, going from the repros, as opposed ot on the watchband like the NEvada.

When I saw repros of these I thought they were incorrect. Then I was told they'd found this original. I have exchanged emails with Lynn Downey about it but not got too much more info. But I can only assume this has the very early patch.

I do need to go down to the archives again. THere is a compleely new shape of duck pants repro (no yoke) from LVC and I want to know if they've found a pair they're basing it on.

I have also heard that Levi's have made another recent discovery in/for the archives. I will be able to get more info on it soon.

I have been told by a couple of people that the yoke and back pocket design came in from a certain type of military pant.

This is the XX, or Oldest Oldest repro, supposedly based on the above pair, but why the patch is placed centrally I don't know. I emailed Lynn about this, and about some dtails on the yoke stitching, and she didn't answer all my queries. Have you dealt with her? I'm sure she'd be interested, altho I would understand why you'd want to keep some of your discoveries under your hat.

Oldest Oldest reissue from 2008

]

here was an exchange I had with Lynn around the time those jeans turned up:

O do they pre-date the Nevada? When do you think they're from? WHat other distinctive details do they have? THIS IS THE "XX" - THE OLDEST PAIR OF 501 JEANS, DATING TO c1879. THAT MAKES THEM THE OLDEST JEANS IN THE WORLD. WE ACQUIRED THESE IN 2003. XX WAS THE ORIGINAL NAME FOR THE 501; IT DIDN'T GET ITS NUMBER UNTIL 1890. IT'S POSSIBLE WE WERE MAKING THE NEVADA STYLE AT THE SAME TIME, BUT OF COURSE WE HAVE NO RECORDS, THANKS TO THE EARTHQUAKE AND FIRE. I WOULD SAY THESE ARE CERTAINLY CONTEMPORARY TO THE NEVADA, AND A DIFFERENT STYLE. TWO DIFFERENT KINDS OF WORK PANTS.

In which case you would say that the nevada's unique features (pocket shape, hem, ruler pocket, centrally-placed leather patch etc) come from the fact that it's an alternative model to the 501? I WOULDN'T LIKE TO SPECULATE ABOUT THAT SINCE WE DON'T HAVE ANY HISTORICAL RECORDS. BUT I THINK WE DID WANT TO OFFER A VARIETY OF STYLES FOR THE DIFFERENT KINDS OF WORKWEAR CUSTOMERS. I JUST DON'T HAVE ANY RECORDS TO TELL ME WHAT THE THINKING WAS BEHIND THE CREATION OF THE NEVADA. REMEMBER, THAT'S OUR NAME FOR THE JEANS, SINCE THE PAIR WE BOUGHT ON EBAY WAS FOUND IN NEVADA. WE DON'T KNOW WHAT ITS ORIGINAL NAME OR LOT NUMBER WAS. WE HAVE SINCE ACQUIRED 2 OTHER PAIRS OF THIS STYLE.

There's also an LVC jean called the Knappave, which seems essentially similar to the Nevada, but for the fact that the legs were cut short. Was this another pair you've acquired, of similar date? I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT THE KNAPPAVE IS. THAT ISN'T AN AMERICAN WORD, IT HAS NO RELEVANCE TO OUR HISTORY AND DOESN'T REFER TO ANY PARTICULAR PRODUCT IN THE ARCHIVES. I DON'T HAVE ANY OF THE LVC FROM THE LAST SEASON SO I DON'T KNOW WHAT IT LOOKS LIKE. (PR: subseuqnetly it turned out the Knappave was based on another Nevada-style pair found with uts legs chopped off)

Are there any other early jeans, from pre-1886 or so, that you've acquired in the last 6 years or so, since I was privileged to visit the archives?? THE ADDITIONAL NEVADA JEANS AND THE XX, AND WE ALSO ACQUIRED ANOTHER XX LAST YEAR THAT STILL HAS THE PATCH WHERE YOU CAN READ "XX". IT'S ABOUT THE SAME AGE AS THE ONE PICTURED ABOVE.

[Sansome1877]

I need to know is this a 1886 XX with a center patch and a watch pocket on the waist band? Does it have the two hoarse brand patch?

[Sansome1877]

Do these have denim pocket bags? Thanks the pants look great

Sorry I want to know about this pant 1886 xx ?