Levi's Vintage Clothing

[roy6]

It seems to me that it would be almost impossible to accurately reproduce the vintage Levis of the 40's and 50's because there really wasn't one product - there were many. all of varying quality and from different sources. So the potential way forward is either to accurately reproduce one copy from an original, or to take a generally accepted generic representation and reproduce that but with higher quality control. or even better, both.

That really seems to sum it up well. I think that the second option may be what LVC has tried to do here, at least with the '40s models. The 1947 especially, I guess, is a sort of stylized design that approximates the look of down-sized jeans that post WWII bikers styled.

[dr.house]

That really seems to sum it up well. I think that the second option may be what LVC has tried to do here, at least with the '40s models. The 1947 especially, I guess, is a sort of stylized design that approximates the look of down-sized jeans that post WWII bikers styled.

That's my idea too. Downsizing was hip by bikers in the late 40's, I'm sure LVC tried to reproduce that feeling with their 47's (compared to the maybe most authentic 47 reproduction, the Sugar Cane 47's 1st model, much more boxy and generously fitted).

[Paul T]

That's my idea too. Downsizing was hip by bikers in the late 40's, I'm sure LVC tried to reproduce that feeling with their 47's (compared to the maybe most authentic 47 reproduction, the Sugar Cane 47's 1st model, much more boxy and generously fitted).

Indeed. In fact both repros are stylised - the SC repro fixates on the vintage 50s cut, with that more high-waist diaper ass look, also exaggerates the pocket shape in its own way - perhaps it's more beautiful, certinaly more like a wartime shape, curving at the top - and it uses much more lemon stitching because that's the Japanese taste.

As suggested before, I'd love LVC to do a late 50s replica with the offset belt loop and lemon stitching on the front pockets.

[Mifune]

If you own MiUS and MiJP jeans, please do post your worn-in pairs. IT's how a denim reveals itself over time that tells you how good it is.!

I would only add that the quality of any fabric can be determined before it is purchased. If you have ever visited a tailor's shop you will see men testing and sampling lengths of cloth judging the quality of same before the tailor's shears do their deed. If a cloth is of insufficient quality it will not age well, will not last long enough to take on a patina or "fade." And the better a cloth is, the more density it has, the more the dyes will take and are able to modulate over time to produce a patina. The same is true for leather and we see the result in great old jackets and shoes that have tremendous richness of character. The same is also true of wine. An inferior wine will not age well. If it lacks sufficient matter, it becomes vinegar. Only a great wine can age. The same is true of antique furniture, cars…and so on…

My LVCs are pretty new, but I will post some pics over time as they age. Good idea. My suggestion to LVC USA would be to make denim with more body. Filson, Carhart, Pendleton, Woolrich, Wesco, Red Wing and other traditional brands make the solid products that built the reputation of MiUSA. And that reputation is the envy of the world. If anyone can make “the” finest jean in the world Levis, Lee or Wrangler should be at the top of the list. It’s a question of will. The market exists for these extreme quality niche products.

I suspect that the writer who said that there was no one Levis make in the past is probably right and that explains why some of us older guys are dismayed by the products coming to market as vintage Levis while others have compared the new vintage to real vintage and find no difference. It's a bit of a mystery.

[entertainment!]

I am still intrigued by the wine analogy that Paul brought up. But I have been thinking about it in terms of cabernet sauvignon, since that introduces the factor of development with age that isn't such a factor with sauvignon blanc.

Bordeaux and Levi's have a lot in common since both were/are the benchmark and both used their privileged status to foist a lot of inferior product on the world. Then came the upstarts: New World cabernet and Japanese jeans. The producers of both were extremely analytical and used the benchmarks as their inspiration and transcended the models in some ways. But at the same time, their products exaggerate the qualities of the original as almost all imitations do. Bordeaux in turn was forced to up its game to compete with the New World, but still remains less consistent due to the less predictable weather conditions relative to somewhere like California. But the best Bordeaux still develop in the most subtle ways in the long term, while California cabernets are impressive in their youth and have a less predictable future.

Cone denim could even be thought of as being like the grapes from the vineyards in Bordeaux: the consistent raw material, though that isn't to say it is possible to truly recreate the grapes or denim of an earlier era. Too many factors that influence production have changed.

On the question of wine turning into vinegar, though, the worst industrial swill is probably the least likely type of wine to turn into vinegar because these wines are made in sterile factory settings and have been filtered to death to remove all microbes and particulate matter, at the same time stripping the wine of complexity.

Now back to denim.

[Paul T]

Yup, I buy the cab sauv analogy, it's better. But it's the summer, a time when a young man's fancy turns to fish and chilled white wine.

The most relevant point is exactly as you mentioned; the new products are a tweaked, 'improved', more consistent interpretation of the original. Of course, it's perfectly acceptable to like or love both - I'd be suspicious of people who argue one is inherently better than the other. My SDA103XX and 555 55 couldn't be more different, they're certainly both good enough for me.

Japan produces terrific, small-scale, artisan denim. But I don't think that's the case with the LVC Japan denim; I've seen lots of people extolling the sewing and the leather labels on those jeans, but I've not seen any amazing long-term wear.

Was it roy6 who mentioned his 33 JP are not quite happening, in the way the Cone ones are? (Or is my memory amiss, again?).

By the way, Mifune, when buying denim manufacturers will always soak, wash and sand their samples. Rigidity of a new denim comes from the starch and sizing; soaking reveals another phase, as the cotton bulks up, the fabric softens, the weave tightens, the indigo that sits on the surface floats off, and a deeper blue is revealed. Then how the indigo abrades with wear is an even more complex process. Looking at denim in a shop is no substitute for wearing it.

[fallen angels]

typo??? 3.5 years yeaaa rite b

what's so hard to believe b?

[LFC4ever]

It was more complex than that - Evis were marketed as being more authentic than the Levi's product, because they were made "on the original Levi's looms". They had a really good product which they sold with a huge amount of BS and, later, outright lies, which I still hear repeated. At the same time,. it is they - and the unsung heroes, Levi's Japan, who produced their own reissues even before Evis or Levi's US - who resuscitated vintage-style denim, alongside another unsung hero, Adriano Goldschmied.

Interesting - I knew they eventually created a monster, and I'd thought the original Levi's looms story was a myth put about by Evis to differentiate their product. Anyway I still have some no 1 special from the 1990's which are excellent and some of the more recent one's from BIG but as a brand I grew to absolutely hate them.

[setterman]

what's so hard to believe b?

That those jeans have been worn for 3 1/2 years. You may have owned them that long, but actual wear is probably no more than six months.

[fallen angels]

oh yeah oops, owned for 3.5 years but only worn on random nights, weekends and vacations.

[ThinFinn]

my rep power is at 501...

ot but i don't mind ...

[LpotRs]

I just looked at the tag on my #555 LVC '54 Sawtooth denim shirt (which has the numbers 1097, making it of Oct. '97 manufacture) and it say's 'Made in USA of imported fabric', so the $64 000 question (to me) is where was the fabric manufactured? Thanks in advance...

[Joseph Hill]

That's always a big question. Almost always in catalogs or websites when there is a spot that says Country of Origen:______ it says 'imported'. Hmm, I've never been to Imported, I wonder if it's nice there. Lots of smiling happy workers in that country.

[airfrogusmc]

Indeed. In fact both repros are stylised - the SC repro fixates on the vintage 50s cut, with that more high-waist diaper ass look, also exaggerates the pocket shape in its own way - perhaps it's more beautiful, certinaly more like a wartime shape, curving at the top - and it uses much more lemon stitching because that's the Japanese taste.

As suggested before, I'd love LVC to do a late 50s replica with the offset belt loop and lemon stitching on the front pockets.

I'd go for that in 54 501 cut properly and with the leather patch. Sounds like a winner to me.

[airfrogusmc]

I would only add that the quality of any fabric can be determined before it is purchased. If you have ever visited a tailor's shop you will see men testing and sampling lengths of cloth judging the quality of same before the tailor's shears do their deed. If a cloth is of insufficient quality it will not age well, will not last long enough to take on a patina or "fade." And the better a cloth is, the more density it has, the more the dyes will take and are able to modulate over time to produce a patina. The same is true for leather and we see the result in great old jackets and shoes that have tremendous richness of character. The same is also true of wine. An inferior wine will not age well. If it lacks sufficient matter, it becomes vinegar. Only a great wine can age. The same is true of antique furniture, cars…and so on…

My LVCs are pretty new, but I will post some pics over time as they age. Good idea. My suggestion to LVC USA would be to make denim with more body. Filson, Carhart, Pendleton, Woolrich, Wesco, Red Wing and other traditional brands make the solid products that built the reputation of MiUSA. And that reputation is the envy of the world. If anyone can make “the” finest jean in the world Levis, Lee or Wrangler should be at the top of the list. It’s a question of will. The market exists for these extreme quality niche products.

I suspect that the writer who said that there was no one Levis make in the past is probably right and that explains why some of us older guys are dismayed by the products coming to market as vintage Levis while others have compared the new vintage to real vintage and find no difference. It's a bit of a mystery.

And my advice to LVC is make as close to authentic weights and texture as to originals as cone and LVC seem to be doing recently. If I want beefed up and better I already have plenty of those options. Again the 55 LVCs that I've seen and been able to compare to originals show that LVC is doing just that with at least one of their models.

[Dr_Heech]

I just looked at the tag on my #555 LVC '54 Sawtooth denim shirt (which has the numbers 1097, making it of Oct. '97 manufacture) and it say's 'Made in USA of imported fabric', so the $64 000 question (to me) is where was the fabric manufactured? Thanks in advance...

I believe someone told me it was 6oz Kaihara fabric, which is sanforized.

But I could be wrong? Never owned one myself.....pics?

.

[Paul T]

But I could be wrong?

.

But you rarely are!

[Mifune]

If I want beefed up and better I already have plenty of those options..

Where is there a '55 cut as good as LVC available in a heavyweight Japanese denim? I am probably looking in the wrong places but I do not find it at all.

Cheers

[cheapmuthafukr]

sugarcane has a 55, but it is a zip fly. made in the usa too.

http://www.historypreservation.com/hpassociates/sugarcane_2.php

[LpotRs]

I believe someone told me it was 6oz Kaihara fabric, which is sanforized.

But I could be wrong? Never owned one myself.....pics?

.

Thanks for the input...

Now you mention it, the Kaihara fabric rings a bell. The tag says Sanforized, so would lead me to think you are right...

It's an XL, with a pit to pit measurement of 50 inches, and is too tight on me!!!

If ever there was a reason to lose three/four stone, getting into this item is a big one

Btw the top picture is the best likeness for colour, as my point and shoot digital camera can't cope too well with changing lighting conditions...

[airfrogusmc]

Where is there a '55 cut as good as LVC available in a heavyweight Japanese denim? I am probably looking in the wrong places but I do not find it at all.

Cheers

Why not one about as close as you can get to the real deal?

And LVC are not $295.

[LpotRs]

I've been reading the '55 debate with interest, so have uploaded some pics of an early LVC version...

Colour likeness is fair, but again, my camera is not brilliant...

They are just getting broken in, with some wear at the rear pocket corners, due to the hidden rivets...

[airfrogusmc]

Those look great. I think Paul has a really nice pair. Mine are really nice now but I haven't got any recent photos. I also haven't had them on in a while. And before they come outta the wood work I'm not trying up one anybody just adding to the conversation.

Raw

After a long stretch no water and finally a first soak.

And much later after many many more months and soaks.

They look a lot better now and have that kinda grayish blue look that Paul talks about. Maybe Paul will post his. I think his turned out about as good as I've seen on a pair of 55s.

[Paul T]

Unfortunately, if you want a purist cut you'll might have to accept a purist fabric.

Ironheart and Samurai have both 'improved' their cuts at the same time they 'improved' their fabric. So I can't think of any other contenders beyond those mentioned when you asked a similar question before:

http://www.superfuture.com/supertalk/showthread.php?p=2223646#post2223646

My first thought would be to try mizza's tailor (see the making of a pair of jeans thread) or to see if Ooe Yofukuten will do a heavier fabric. Few people do, because they have to use different sewing machines, and hence you have to make compromises on the look of the stitching.

Why do you want a heavier fabric, by the way? Only my personal opinion, but it reminds me of Marshall amplifiers that go up to 11.

[dr.house]

Thanks a lot Paul T. and entertainment. Seems I got finally an answer to my unspoken question now : why do I feel better in LVC's than in jap jawnz?

LVC's are plain simple, a quality repro jeans, no more, no less. Sometimes I get weary about all those great details and all those special denims. Jeans like SDA, Denime, Eternal are superb, fine quality and perfect worked. But maybe they're a bit too perfect and too sophisticated. Wearing my LVC's on the other hand gives me a good and comfy feeling, just like: "I'm wearing a jean." It's that simple, something like bread and water (to be metaphoric again :-))

Jeans mustn't be perfect, but they must have this dirty feeling to be authentic.

[Paul T]

One wash:

A few washes:

[dr.house]

^ simply wonderful.

[Mifune]

Why not one about as close as you can get to the real deal?

And LVC are not $295.

True but LVC costs $230 where I live and that seems dear for what they are.

I remember paying $13...hmmm...quite a few decades ago.

Given the quality of the fabrics used and quality of the make, I would say some of the Japanese brands are real bargains. It would cost an awful lot more to have trousers of this quality made by a tailor from heavy whipcord or cavalry twill. And these fabrics do not have the charm of denim.

I will keep looking and know that there is a "purist" option available.

[Mifune]

Unfortunately, if you want a purist cut you'll might have to accept a purist fabric.

Why do you want a heavier fabric, by the way? Only my personal opinion, but it reminds me of Marshall amplifiers that go up to 11.

Paul

I live in a part of the world where it gets very cold and I like to remain very warm. I also like the drape of heavy cloth and the durability (given the cloth is of impeccable quality.) I remember keeping my Levis a few days short of forever and they looked great up to the last wear. Things that wear out too fast never acquire the patina, what you guys call the "fade" that we really like. But there is only one way to find out for sure and that is to wear them and that is what I am doing.

Nice '55s you posted.

[Paul T]

Paul

I live in a part of the world where it gets very cold and I like to remain very warm.

That's a good, practical reason, I can't argue with that. Do try Ooe or mizza's fella and report back.