Levi's Vintage Clothing

[Paul T]

But you have said that you have never seen or handled an original pair of 55s. I can tell you that the 55s from a few years back and a pair of originals that were new with tags were virtually the same as far as denim weight and cut. You are probably used to looking at denim that is both to heavy and to textured as compared to original weight and texture which is what many do. Cone has the original denim and specs in their archives and they seem to be committed to using that info to create denim on old looms si I doubt you will find more accurate denim for a Levis 1955 repro. I haven't seen one. You Paul?

I think he's saying that they are true to the original, I don't think anybody's disagreeing.

Serge Denimes, who used to be active on this board, who collected a lot of old LEvi's, was soneone whose opinion I respect, he thought that the reissue denim didn't match up to the dye job of the originals. I personally think it's very close, but I respect his opinion.

THanks Dr House, for the info about the SDA. Mine are the SDA103XX natural indigo denim; I simply think their aesthetic is close to the original Levi's one, rather than a modified one.

I can't see the Buttenheim pics, is that just me?

I often think - pretension alert - that Japanese denim vs Cone is a bit like New Zealand Marboro Sauvignon vs a Sancerre or a Pouilly Fumé. When you first drink the NZ wine it blows you away, it's so consistent and delivers every time, and is a kind of amplified version of the original. But after a while you appreciate the subtlety of the French wine they copied. You can buy really crappy Sancerre, and you can buy really clichéd, zingy Marlboro Sauvignon. But either wine can deliver.

I've just remembered Serge was a wine-grower (?) too, maybe at some point he'll surface and mock both my denim and my wine analysis.

[dr.house]

^Yeah, maybe you're right, I've heard the new stock should be great. I guess I'll have to ask Dejan for a possible restock or give the 32" a try, damned.

There are also some 55's made in japan left on rakuten btw, too bad not in my size. I guess they're also pretty rare meanwhile.

[dr.house]

[quote name='Paul T;2333975

I often think - pretension alert - that Japanese denim vs Cone is a bit like New Zealand Marboro Sauvignon vs a Sancerre or a Pouilly Fumé. When you first drink the NZ wine it blows you away' date=' it's so consistent and delivers every time, and is a kind of amplified version of the original. But after a while you appreciate the subtlety of the French wine they copied. You can buy really crappy Sancerre, and you can buy really clichéd, zingy Marlboro Sauvignon. But either wine can deliver.

[/quote']

That's great! Too bad, I can't rep atm.

Uh, and the pics are visible, or try here:

http://mynudies.com/forums/showpost.php?p=277769&postcount=1

[dr.house]

Omg, third post in a row

Check this japanese 44 LVC:

Yeah, SIX buttons...

[dylanbooth78]

hello all,

i have recently been following this on ebay...

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...=STRK:MEWAX:IT

...i emailed the guy and he told me that the jacket is original and not an LVC recreation! he also told me there are no labels and no numbers on the button backs!! now it could well be an original but with so many good LVC copys around, how the hell are you supposed to tell???

i am not asking for one of you to tell me if this is original or not! i am looking to start a discussion on how to tell if levis are original or just old LVCs in disguise!!!!????

[Dr_Heech]

First IMO it is an Lvc jacket at most. An original 50 inch chest (measured?) would have an extra seam seperating the back panel (I think this was from a size 46 upwards, but dont quote me on it). The buttons are too shiny, and that denim has a distressed wash - factory?(probably homemade) to it.

Detailed pics would offer conclusive proof.

.

[dylanbooth78]

First IMO it is an Lvc jacket at most. An original 50 inch chest (measured?) would have an extra seam seperating the back panel (I think this was from a size 46 upwards, but dont quote me on it). The buttons are too shiny, and that denim has a distressed wash - factory?(probably homemade) to it.

Detailed pics would offer conclusive proof.

.

i didnt know that! is that also true on the bigger sized type3 jackets? and if it was a smaller size with more corrosion on the buttons? how could you tell?? i know the levi archive bids for vintage levis on ebay, im just wondering how they can tell the item is not just LVC before they bid with the big bucks!

p.s. i know the levis archive actually verified the "nevada" jeans before they where put on ebay but im sure they cant do that with all there purchases!?!

[entertainment!]

Check this japanese 44 LVC:

Yeah, SIX buttons...

That's a good way to conserve metal for the war effort!

[Paul T]

I defer to Dr Heech; i also think the jacket is LVC.

Year of manufacture = 2003 is my guess.

Ask the dealer to send close-ups of the red 'Levi's' tag for a conclusive proof. If there's an 'R' in a circle then it's definitely a repro.If there's no 'R' there's a chance it's original. (the same applies with red tags on most Levi's jeans and products, from 1936 to circa 1953).

As it is, I find the fact he's been so economical with the photos as pretty conclusive proof it's the reissue and not the original.

[dylanbooth78]

Hmm, the seller just emailed me to tell me that there is actually an "r" on the button backs!! Correct me if I am wrong but I believe that the original type 1 jackets would have a single digit number on the button backs!? And LVC would either have a 3 digit number (earlier LVC) or no numbers at all (later LVC) so this suggests that this is probably a non Levis repro?? Anyhow there's far too much doubt in my mind to risk dropping £100 on the thing!!!

[erk]

Hmm, the seller just emailed me to tell me that there is actually an "r" on the button backs!! Correct me if I am wrong but I believe that the original type 1 jackets would have a single digit number on the button backs!? And LVC would either have a 3 digit number (earlier LVC) or no numbers at all (later LVC) so this suggests that this is probably a non Levis repro?? Anyhow there's far too much doubt in my mind to risk dropping £100 on the thing!!!

R is a code used by levi's. my 1947s have R stamped on the back of the top button - i think this means they were made by taylor toggs in NC for Levi's.

[Paul T]

R is a code used by levi's. my 1947s have R stamped on the back of the top button - i think this means they were made by taylor toggs in NC for Levi's.

Correct, made 2003-2006, for the US market.

[LFC4ever]

I think I'm right in saying that in the early days Evis used to market their product as having all the benefits of vintage Levis but without the quality/consistency issues. It seems to me that it would be almost impossible to accurately reproduce the vintage Levis of the 40's and 50's because there really wasn't one product - there were many. all of varying quality and from different sources. So the potential way forward is either to accurately reproduce one copy from an original, or to take a generally accepted generic representation and reproduce that but with higher quality control. or even better, both.

[airfrogusmc]

I think he's saying that they are true to the original, I don't think anybody's disagreeing.

Serge Denimes, who used to be active on this board, who collected a lot of old LEvi's, was soneone whose opinion I respect, he thought that the reissue denim didn't match up to the dye job of the originals. I personally think it's very close, but I respect his opinion.

THanks Dr House, for the info about the SDA. Mine are the SDA103XX natural indigo denim; I simply think their aesthetic is close to the original Levi's one, rather than a modified one.

I can't see the Buttenheim pics, is that just me?

I often think - pretension alert - that Japanese denim vs Cone is a bit like New Zealand Marboro Sauvignon vs a Sancerre or a Pouilly Fumé. When you first drink the NZ wine it blows you away, it's so consistent and delivers every time, and is a kind of amplified version of the original. But after a while you appreciate the subtlety of the French wine they copied. You can buy really crappy Sancerre, and you can buy really clichéd, zingy Marlboro Sauvignon. But either wine can deliver.

I've just remembered Serge was a wine-grower (?) too, maybe at some point he'll surface and mock both my denim and my wine analysis.

Paul I was just trying to make the point that many feel that if its not heavy or real slubby its not authentic and that couldn't be farther from the truth. And I'm not sayng that heavy slubby demin isn't great denim and in some ways better depending on what you are looking for but better doesn't mean authentic.

[airfrogusmc]

I think I'm right in saying that in the early days Evis used to market their product as having all the benefits of vintage Levis but without the quality/consistency issues. It seems to me that it would be almost impossible to accurately reproduce the vintage Levis of the 40's and 50's because there really wasn't one product - there were many. all of varying quality and from different sources. So the potential way forward is either to accurately reproduce one copy from an original, or to take a generally accepted generic representation and reproduce that but with higher quality control. or even better, both.

But approximate denim weave and weight can be replicated if you have samples and the original specs as cone does. Some of those japanese makers are what I would call boutique makers taking something and making it better not necessarily trying to replicate it.

[Mifune]

Paul

I own both the MiJ and MiUS LVC ’55. I grew up in the 50s and 60s and the MiJ denim is closer in my (admittedly inaccurate, it was so long ago) memory. Levis were as thick as boards in those days, you could barely fold them and to get them home a roof rack on the car was a good idea.

I have a bit of experience with woolen fabrics and imagine that denim is the same in some respects. What one looks for in “quality†cloth is not so much a function of weight but one of “density.†A 7 ozs. worsted can have tons of density, spring in the hand, and feel lively while a 18 ozs cloth can be dead in the hand and completely empty. Roll the cloth between thumb and forefinger. If it creates a little wave and rolls easily between your fingers, the cloth is first rate. If the cloth crumples in your fingers, won’t roll and feels crusty and paper-like, you have a lesser quality in your hand.

Cone has the recipes. That is apparently the case. But there are many recipes for fabrics that cannot be made anymore because the quality of the threads, the machines and techniques that were used to weave them are missing. The UK fabrics industry self destructed in the 1970s when it threw away all its old weaving machines and they cannot be replaced; and even if they could be replaced, the threads are not made to the same spec to be able to make worsted or flannel cloth like they did in the 1930s. This seems amazing but is sadly true.

It seems that both Cone and the Japanese have access to old style looms weaving on half width, and they both have access to the best cottons in the world. But the Japanese denim (that I have felt) for some reason seems to be of superior quality. Maybe Cone is using the recipes, and machines but cutting corners somewhere else in the mix.

As for the Sancerre, wine is an expression of what we call “terroir†ie the expression of a place, soil, exposition, climate, rain fall etc that produces a unique product that in many cases cannot be duplicated naturally (without chemical additives and flavoring.) I don’t see an analogy with denim. Manufacturers have access to the same technology, cottons, dyes etc. Denim is not a “terroir†product.

But I do love the ’55 cut. Where in the heck are those ’55 MiJ on Rakuten? I can’t find them at all.

[airfrogusmc]

Paul

I own both the MiJ and MiUS LVC ’55. I grew up in the 50s and 60s and the MiJ denim is closer in my (admittedly inaccurate, it was so long ago) memory. Levis were as thick as boards in those days, you could barely fold them and to get them home a roof rack on the car was a good idea.

I have a bit of experience with woolen fabrics and imagine that denim is the same in some respects. What one looks for in “quality†cloth is not so much a function of weight but one of “density.†A 7 ozs. worsted can have tons of density, spring in the hand, and feel lively while a 18 ozs cloth can be dead in the hand and completely empty. Roll the cloth between thumb and forefinger. If it creates a little wave and rolls easily between your fingers, the cloth is first rate. If the cloth crumples in your fingers, won’t roll and feels crusty and paper-like, you have a lesser quality in your hand.

Cone has the recipes. That is apparently the case. But there are many recipes for fabrics that cannot be made anymore because the quality of the threads, the machines and techniques that were used to weave them are missing. The UK fabrics industry self destructed in the 1970s when it threw away all its old weaving machines and they cannot be replaced; and even if they could be replaced, the threads are not made to the same spec to be able to make worsted or flannel cloth like they did in the 1930s. This seems amazing but is sadly true.

It seems that both Cone and the Japanese have access to old style looms weaving on half width, and they both have access to the best cottons in the world. But the Japanese denim (that I have felt) for some reason seems to be of superior quality. Maybe Cone is using the recipes, and machines but cutting corners somewhere else in the mix.

As for the Sancerre, wine is an expression of what we call “terroir†ie the expression of a place, soil, exposition, climate, rain fall etc that produces a unique product that in many cases cannot be duplicated naturally (without chemical additives and flavoring.) I don’t see an analogy with denim. Manufacturers have access to the same technology, cottons, dyes etc. Denim is not a “terroir†product.

But I do love the ’55 cut. Where in the heck are those ’55 MiJ on Rakuten? I can’t find them at all.

I've seen the 55 LVCs raw NWTs right next to a raw NWTs pair of originals and they could have came out of the same factory on the same run thats how close the LVCs were.

[Paul T]

hahaha. thanks for the wine lecture! But I was attempting a metaphor, not an explanation of production methods.

[erk]

I've seen the 55 LVCs raw NWTs right next to a raw NWTs pair of originals and they could have came out of the same factory on the same run thats how close the LVCs were.

its kinda hard to beat that comparison...

[Mifune]

Paul

I know what you were trying to say but the New Zealanders were not trying to “copy†Sancerre wine. They were making a wine from the Sauvignon blanc varietal like the French, Americans, Italians, Slovenians and winemakers the world over.

I have a feeling the Japanese were not trying to “copy†US denim. I suspect they were trying to copy US “style.†But they aimed to recreate US styling with cloth that was better (subjectively speaking) than the original. It’s a dream team, best of both worlds kind of a deal, great American styling with amazing quality components and build. I think they succeeded.

But their great products are hard to buy and they don’t fit me. Shucks….

[airfrogusmc]

Paul

I know what you were trying to say but the New Zealanders were not trying to “copy†Sancerre wine. They were making a wine from the Sauvignon blanc varietal like the French, Americans, Italians, Slovenians and winemakers the world over.

I have a feeling the Japanese were not trying to “copy†US denim. I suspect they were trying to copy US “style.†But they aimed to recreate US styling with cloth that was better (subjectively speaking) than the original. It’s a dream team, best of both worlds kind of a deal, great American styling with amazing quality components and build. I think they succeeded.

But their great products are hard to buy and they don’t fit me. Shucks….

I agree with this though some like are like I am and want something accurate instead of better.

[cheapmuthafukr]

some 33s

[Charlie Delta]

Those are wonderful!

[Paul T]

Paul

I know what you were trying to say but the New Zealanders were not trying to “copy” Sancerre wine.

I have a feeling the Japanese were not trying to “copy” US denim.

So, no contradiction, then.

I'd say the Marlborough Sauvignon aims directly at Sancerre's status as the classic dry Sauvignon. It sits right alongside it on wine lists, and has supplanted it on a few. In fact, I can't think of anyone who wouldn't say the NZ producers went out to get a piece of that market. I would also suggest that saying "I know what you're trying to say" sounds, over the internet, to a stranger, rather pompous?

If you own MiUS and MiJP jeans, please do post your worn-in pairs. IT's how a denim reveals itself over time that tells you how good it is. LVC MiJP has used a lot of Cone denim, as well as Kaihara, and I've seen very little of the latter worn-in, although the distressed versions look good.

I think I'm right in saying that in the early days Evis used to market their product as having all the benefits of vintage Levis but without the quality/consistency issues.

It was more complex than that - Evis were marketed as being more authentic than the Levi's product, because they were made "on the original Levi's looms". They had a really good product which they sold with a huge amount of BS and, later, outright lies, which I still hear repeated. At the same time,. it is they - and the unsung heroes, Levi's Japan, who produced their own reissues even before Evis or Levi's US - who resuscitated vintage-style denim, alongside another unsung hero, Adriano Goldschmied.

@Cheep Superb pants. I have reason to believe you've been working in them - be careful, the denim police might be after you!

[airfrogusmc]

some 33s

Pretty freak'n nice cheap.

[airfrogusmc]

Has anyone scored a new pair of 1933s and do you have pictures? From some photos I've seen the new 1933s seem to have longer pockets that are shaped more like the 1915s/1917/1927s. Please say it aint so

[Happy Hooligan]

Cheap, what the heck did you do to those? They look beat to hell... but in a good "beat to hell" way...

[cheapmuthafukr]

well.... since i got em last july(on the 4th... coming up on one year of ownership) they have pretty much been my go to jeans for anything active in the summer... lots of surveying and lots of skateboarding... a bit of painting around the house too.

they were the broken raw if i remember correctly... so there was a little bit of resin creasing and on the backs of the legs. i think thats why they havent developed any honey combs... but on the lap it has been no big deal. i really dont care about that to be honest... they are beautiful anyways.

but yeah,they never shrank, so they are too long and i need to wear a belt, and the buckle was usable for about 2 months until one of the prongs corroded away... good ol LVC problems. still... the more i wear them the more i like em. i eventually want to get a 55... a 44 would be nice too, but i think warehouse has one that id like better... guess thats the good thing about LVC, they make models that the JP brands seem too overlook in favor of the 47s, 44s, and 66s.

[fallen angels]

501 1947,

owned for 3.5 years but only worn on random nights and weekends

[jwsach]

typo??? 3.5 years yeaaa rite b