Denim Blunders, Reflections and General Nonsense.

[karanimal]

Thankfully, there are just too many good jeans out now. What makes tanuki special, at all? Nothing, which is why they feel the need to come up with this bullshit gimmick to create a stir.

 

I will give them that I love how thin the chainstitch hem is, but it would've been better if they started the stitching where the selvedge is rather than on the inside.

 

The thing is, bullshit gimmicks work. They sell. Selling a few pairs of jeans to us on sufu isn't going to make this company successful. Appealing to the wider audience of denim buyers will. Buzz words work, secrecy works (look at oni...), a company starting out in a saturated market needs to differentiate themselves from their competitors and in the denim world how the fuck do you do that? Add a couple more pockets? belt loops? stupid arcs? No, you need to act like you have a secret formula of denim alchemy that was made by master craftsmen. If the denim is nice, the cut works, and fits western customers more than i would expect this company to do well 

[mikecch]

I'm still getting a feel of what the scene is like these days. But during peak SuFu, it only took one or two good reviews or a group project before a new brand or maker would become increasingly popular even outside of regular forum participants. Over the years I've had feedback that endorsement here can equate to increased traffic and business for small brands

Sadly the reverse is true here for Tanuki.

Edited July 20, 2016 by mikecch

[Aries]

Yep. We live in a society of spectacle, where commodity fetishism is the rule; 'fetish' here understood in the tribal sense, as 'spirit' or otherwise 'magical' thing.

 

In a (post-industrial, information economy) materialist culture we are primarily consumers: defined by what one 'consumes', importantly seen consuming (conspicuous consumption).

 

In such a world a commodity's exchange-value (monetary valuation) can far exceed use-value (the price of a Gucci bag far exceeds its value as a storage system). Exchange-value in a consumer society is a fuzzy estimation of use-value and, much more importantly, symbolic-value: what an object means.

 

What an object means (symbolic-value) is of course enormously subjective. Therefore to make this symbolic-value appear objective, and therefore worth the exchange-value demanded, one might take the route of what we call 'mystification': tie the commodity to ideas valorised within the society, or specific sub-culture, through marketing: body deodorants become associated with sexual attraction; specific technologies (cars, computers) become associated with masculinity; certain foods with sophistication and so on.

 

It's quite funny that in this case, the core idea of the brand is literally mystification: you don't "know" what the product is, therefore it has a kind of magical quality. We're pretty much back at tribal fetishism at this point.

[SuperJackle]

I think tanuki will do just fine. Redditors will eat this stuff up like they do oni. If I was starting brand I'd look to the demographic that's gonna pull the most volume and that's def Reddit these days.

I might add that if the brand has created such a stir (amongst industry insiders such as retailers no less) it's still creating buzz. No press is bad press and all that... Unless you're lawless denim et al.

Edited July 20, 2016 by SuperJackle

[chicote]

edit

The artesian wells that would spurt a full thirty feet into the air still lay vaulted up beneath Imperial's maidenhead, which in the words of Lieutenant W.H. Emory (1846) "is chiefly covered with floating sand, the surface of which, in various places, is white with diminutive spinelas and everywhere over the whole surface is found the large and soft mussel-shell."

Edited July 20, 2016 by chicote

[dwilson123]

I think tanuki will do just fine. Redditors will eat this stuff up like they do oni. If I was starting brand I'd look to the demographic that's gonna pull the most volume and that's def Reddit these days.

I might add that if the brand has created such a stir (amongst industry insiders such as retailers no less) it's still creating buzz. No press is bad press and all that... Unless you're lawless denim et al.

 

I think the jeans are too bland and uninteresting for the typical reddit user's tastes.  Generally whacky weight or slub is what sells over there.

[SuperJackle]

^Maybe the utterly inspired marketing will convince them there is hidden, invisible, or even intangible slub and weight, made only possible by this master loom magician!

[dwilson123]

That is somewhat implied when the denim is only made three days prior to a thunderstorm in the spring between the temperatures of 60 degrees and 67 degrees.

[Maynard Friedman]

Can a moderator delete this unintelligible nonsense please?

This is getting quite off-topic, but in this conversation about Tanuki I find myself often recalling the thesis of this short essay in Siri Hustvedt's novel "The Blazing World":

"An Alphabet toward Several Meanings of Art and Generation

Ethan Lord

1) Artist A generates artwork B. An idea that is part of the body of A becomes a thing that is B. B is not identical to A. B does not even resemble A. What is the relation between A and B?

2) A does not equal B, but B would be impossible without A, therefore B is dependent on A for its existence, while at the same time B is distinct from A. If A vanishes, B does not necessarily disappear. The object B can outlive the body of A.

3) C is the third element. C is the body that observes B. C is not responsible for B and knows that A is B's creator. When C looks at B, C does not view A. A is not present as a body, but as an idea that is part of the body of C. C can use A as a word to describe B. A has become one of the signs used to designate B. A remains A, a body, but A is also a shared verbal tag that belongs to both A and C. B cannot use symbols.

4) What happens when A makes B, but A vanishes as both body and sign from B? Instead of A, D becomes attached to B. C observes B created by A, but the idea of D has replaced A. Has B changed? Yes. B has changed because the idea in the body of C while observing B is now D rather than A. D does not equal A. They are two different bodies, and they are two different symbols..."

--

Anyway, a bit hard to understand generally, but if A is, in this context, a person or people in a denim brand, B represents their products, C represents the customers, and D represents--to use Aries' terminology above--the "exchange value" of B, which includes price but also more nebulous elements such as hype, historical significance, etc., I believe it explains the particular position that Tanuki is in relative to other brands in the denim market.

[ALB]

T-t-they're just jeans! pls no bully

 

memes aside, I honestly find it odd that people are focusing on this brand's marketing when you could have just ignored altogether. It was never in your face nor had any hype prior to its release. Superdenim doesn't seem like it's their demographic so why make a fuss? 

[itsbenhere]

Kiya did ask what everyone's opinion is...

[ALB]

Heh, right. Few pages back and I forgot about that. Probably didn't help there was a thread about it over at reddit (by kiya as well). Uh, carry on then.

[kiya]

Heh, right. Few pages back and I forgot about that. Probably didn't help there was a thread about it over at reddit (by kiya as well). Uh, carry on then.

 

 

My main objection was just that in this day and age transparency is key for any type of company, if you look at the new generation of successful companies in nearly any sector (tech, denim brands, restaurants, etc..) the unifying factor is transparency.  People want to know where their money is going, launching a company that works the opposite of this is not only puzzling but makes me (as a buyer in this industry) wonder what they're hiding.

Edited July 20, 2016 by kiya

[itsbenhere]

It doesn't puzzle me since look at Oni, part of their thing was secrecy right? No one knew who it was etc etc

I also think they'd be hiding something. Isn't the point of all this hard work so that you establish a name for yourself that lends some credence to future ventures? Why wouldn't you take advantage of that if your name has the cachet?

[garden gnomes in space]

Rant:  I am absolutely not interested in any company (denim or other) that markets their brand this way.  Secret, on a need to know basis, get the fuck out of here. At the end of the day, unless they offer up something unique, it will just be another brand in a sea of brands.  

 

I hate this type of internet marketing where there has to be a different, unique aspect to the brand that they feel that the consumer should feel blessed to be a part of.  Like they are doing us a favor by letting us be a part of something by buying the product.  This usually means an average product that without the marketing spin, would not stand out in any way.

 

I dont wish ill will on them, but to me, its just more noise.  

Edited July 20, 2016 by garden gnomes in space

[ColonelAngus]

My main objection was just that in this day and age transparency is key for any type of company, if you look at the new generation of successful companies in nearly any sector (tech, denim brands, restaurants, etc..) the unifying factor is transparency.  People want to know where their money is going, launching a company that works the opposite of this is not only puzzling but makes me (as a buyer in this industry) wonder what they're hiding.

 

you're are right in wanting transparency as a business/consumer, but if the roles were reversed and it was Self Edge carrying this brand how would you go about selling it to your customers if the owners insisted on secrecy? BOW is currently the only B&M carrying this brand and we all know that Jay and company have a pretty damned good store and some of the best customer service in the industry, so they clearly know who the denim masters are, otherwise, they wouldn't be able to sell the brand. If this secretive denim brand approached SE and said, "hey, we're actually behind brands A, B and C but we don't want you to reveal who we are," what would your response be? I'm just playing devil's advocate here since everyone seems to be throwing Tanuki under the bus.

[dwilson123]

I think Kiya may be saying he would pass on the brand

[ColonelAngus]

I think Kiya may be saying he would pass on the brand

 

he was saying he wants transparency and wants to know where his money is going, which is a valid argument. what i'm saying is, if the owners of Tanuki approached SE and revealed who they were to him but said they didn't want their identities revealed to the rest of the world what would he do? BOW carries their stuff so logic follows that Tanuki's owners made themselves known to Jay, otherwise he wouldn't have been able to buy stuff from them. Unless of course he's working through a middle man which would seem odd.

 

I'll be honest, I like the look and description of Tanuki's jeans and i'm not going to bash them because you guys don't like the mystery behind the brand. Heck, I'm not invested enough to even know who the people are behind Momotaro, The Strike Gold, PBJ, etc. I just know they make good jeans. I get where you guys are coming from but i'd prefer to give Tanuki a chance before forming conclusions

[kiya]

you're are right in wanting transparency as a business/consumer, but if the roles were reversed and it was Self Edge carrying this brand how would you go about selling it to your customers if the owners insisted on secrecy? BOW is currently the only B&M carrying this brand and we all know that Jay and company have a pretty damned good store and some of the best customer service in the industry, so they clearly know who the denim masters are, otherwise, they wouldn't be able to sell the brand. If this secretive denim brand approached SE and said, "hey, we're actually behind brands A, B and C but we don't want you to reveal who we are," what would your response be? I'm just playing devil's advocate here since everyone seems to be throwing Tanuki under the bus.

 

 

I cannot sell a brand which cannot reveal any details of the owners, designers, mills they work with, etc.. If they came to me and said "this is who we are, this is where the denim is from, but you cannot tell your customers" i would still not carry the brand.  I don't feel like briefing 5 stores worth of employees on a brand they can know nothing about, it's not interesting to me. I want a human behind the products we sell, and this is the opposite of that.

Edited July 20, 2016 by kiya

[OptimusPrime]

It's sickening that this board is so full of hypocrites these days, BOW has launched a new brand of made in Japan denim.
Self Edge missed out on the opportunity of carrying the brand, so people feel entitled to start a post bashing that brand, criticizing the marketing strategy, demanding transparency etc., looks like sour grapes to me.

People are so comfortable praising relatively unknown and mediocre jeans costing over 40,000 yen.
Yet this reasonably priced quality new brand is getting no love.
The owners of BiG and BOW don't go on public forums and bash the other B&M stores and that speaks volumes for their integrity.

Next time you want to make a purchase at Self Edge, think twice if this is the business you want to support.

[Broark]

Haha, okay guy. 

[itsbenhere]

Optimus prime, you're a fucking moron. What does praising unknown and expensive brands have anything to do with sniffing out a bullshit marketing scheme and calling it out? No one has said anything about the quality.

So this is blue owls brand? Is blue owl owned by Japanese denim masters? If not, they're lying in heir statement. Do you know that kiya knew this and is purposefully trying to sabotage their brand because it is blue owls brand? How do you know this?

[OptimusPrime]

Well well well, the biggest hypocrite of all has spoken!
So you are not talking about your love for The Flat Head in this post?
How about we talk about some more love for TFH you fucking dipshit?

[kiya]

It's sickening that this board is so full of hypocrites these days, BOW has launched a new brand of made in Japan denim.

Self Edge missed out on the opportunity of carrying the brand, so people feel entitled to start a post bashing that brand, criticizing the marketing strategy, demanding transparency etc., looks like sour grapes to me.

People are so comfortable praising relatively unknown and mediocre jeans costing over 40,000 yen.

Yet this reasonably priced quality new brand is getting no love.

The owners of BiG and BOW don't go on public forums and bash the other B&M stores and that speaks volumes for their integrity.

Next time you want to make a purchase at Self Edge, think twice if this is the business you want to support.

 

 

If you have actually read every post about this topic over the past 3 pages of this thread and this is your response you're officially a crazy person.  Go back, read the posts, digest them.  Nobody was bashing any of the B&M stores, there was no bashing going on at all, it was a pretty good conversation about what we think about transparency in companies/brands.  

This is a fun thread, reminds me of the old days of Superfuture.  Get in on the conversation, don't assume that there's some fucked up conspiracy to take down another store or brand.  It's called conversation, it's what brought me here to this forum over ten years ago in the first place. 

Edited July 21, 2016 by kiya

[itsbenhere]

How is my love for flat head hypocritical ????????????????????

[OptimusPrime]

If you have actually read every post about this topic over the past 3 pages of this thread and this is your response you're officially a crazy person.  Go back, read the posts, digest them.  Nobody was bashing any of the B&M stores, there was no bashing going on at all, it was a pretty good conversation about what we think about transparency in companies/brands.  

This is a fun thread, reminds me of the old days of Superfuture.  Get in on the conversation, don't assume that there's some fucked up conspiracy to take down another store or brand.  It's called conversation, it's what brought me here to this forum over ten years ago in the first place. 

 

No, you are the crazy person here and your internet presence is not helping Self Edge.

I am just tired of your nonsense sometimes, but I guess this is the general nonsense thread after all.

[Broark]

If you don't like it then go somewhere else? There really isn't anything wrong with the conversation we've been having.

No one has said anything about the quality, we've been talking about this shroud of secrecy that the brand has created in a time where more people seem to respect and want transparency. I like knowing where my jeans come from and where my money is going.

I don't give a toss about "secret denim masters" that I evidently don't deserve to know about...

Sure, maybe the denim is nice and the construction is good. I don't know, I don't own a pair. Measurements look like trash though.

[itsbenhere]

Oprimus, seriously answer my question how I'm hypocritical. I'm usually not this confrontational but you annoy the shit out of me, i want to see you make a fooll of yourself because you must not know what the word "hypocritical" means. Fuck you!

[jigsaw]

dont feed the troll 

[OptimusPrime]

If you don't like it then go somewhere else? There really isn't anything wrong with the conversation we've been having.

No one has said anything about the quality, we've been talking about this shroud of secrecy that the brand has created in a time where more people seem to respect and want transparency. I like knowing where my jeans come from and where my money is going.

I don't give a toss about "secret denim masters" that I evidently don't deserve to know about...

Sure, maybe the denim is nice and the construction is good. I don't know, I don't own a pair. Measurements look like trash though.

 

Who are you to tell people to go somewhere else?

So if the opinion is different from yours, it's not welcome in the conversation is it?

I don't think I have emphasized anything about the quality, why are you talking about the quality?