Vintage Denim?

[Dr_Heech]

Who knows? They look like a legit pair of 70's (l'm presuming) made in the USA Wranglers to me. Any more intel?

Edited October 9 by Dr_Heech

[Dr_Heech]

On 10/7/2024 at 3:43 AM, aho said:

Nice overview of jackets, unfortunately in Japanese w/no subtitles. One of these days I should offer to translate and post to sufu for posterity 😂
 

Some great insights here that should've been obvious to me but I didn't think about all these years, for example, the Lee Riders jacket was the most advanced/functional between the three brands and was basically unchanged in design. The Levi's type 3 released 10-12 years later (apologies typing from memory here) is basically an admission that the Lee jacket was superior and nearly all the design cues on the type 3 were informed by it...

 

Shame there's no translation with it but l certainly get the gist. I always thought there was some major battles going on between Lee and Levis during the 1930s and 40s and l always thought that the levis Type 2 was a quickly cobbled together response to Lee's more stylish looking 101-J Riders jacket. Mind you, the 101-J Cowboy jacket of the late 1920s up until the end of WW2 was almost a direct copy of the Type 1 as it wasn't a patented design, whereas the New Lee Riders jacket was!  Plus the denim used to make Lee products was sanforized whereas Levis was STF, so the Riders 101-J could be more body hugging and looked more stylish than the outdated pleated styles that had gone before.

Here are some snaps of another early 101-J Riders (c.1945) with the older stock Cowboy buttons. Luckily this one is a rare unwashed example which still has the Patent pending label present. First time l've seen one (thanks to Arakawavintage)

 

 

All this, then in 1959 Lee brought out its Westerner range with colourfull vat-dyed jackets and matching trousers whereas Levis had to wait for the Type 3's release in 1961 before it could do the same.

As a side note,  l recently discovered that the Type 3's designer was Jack Lucier, son of red tab inventor Chris Lucier.

 

 

Edited October 16 by Dr_Heech

[Double 0 Soul]

On 10/7/2024 at 3:43 AM, aho said:

Nice overview of jackets, unfortunately in Japanese w/no subtitles. One of these days I should offer to translate and post to sufu for posterity 😂
 

@Dr_Heech

Open the page on YT

Click Settings instead of CC

Click Subtitles

Click Japanese Auto Generated

Click Subtitles again

Click Auto Translate

Choose language

Hey Presto!

Edited October 10 by Double 0 Soul

[Dr_Heech]

@Double 0 Soul Thanks Neal, will give it a go!

[Dr_Heech]

Lovely pic of the earliest readable vintage Levis 506 jacket patch. It's a clearer image from the unwashed 1927 first pocket flapped 506xx that l posted some pages back. The patch is rare insomuch as it has Copper Riveted and 'Size' 36 meaning it was used exclusively for jackets. This label is thought to be used until c.1936 when levis started to use the same Two horse patch that was used on 501's at the time to use on jackets also,  which is what we're usually used to seeing on a 506. 

 

 

 

Edited Thursday at 05:30 AM by Dr_Heech

[bartlebyyphonics]

nice selection/collection @paulm and thanks for posting - why not putting these in the 'how many jeans do you own' thread... this thread is for the golden oldies not the repros (although 90s/00s repros are now approaching vintage status) - or am I a total idiot [most likely] and these are all in that oldie status as many are pre arc lawsuit? 

Edited October 26 by bartlebyyphonics

[paulm]

18 minutes ago, bartlebyyphonics said:

nice selection/collection @paulm and thanks for posting - why not putting these in the 'how many jeans do you own' thread... this thread is for the golden oldies not the repros (although 90s/00s repros are now approaching vintage status) - or am I a total idiot [most likely] and these are all in that oldie status as many are pre arc lawsuit? 

 

[paulm]

Just now, paulm said:

 

Well they are all aproaching 20 years old

[aho]

7 hours ago, paulm said:

Well they are all aproaching 20 years old

You know you're old when your repros of vintage have become vintage themselves 🥴 Right there with you @paulm, it's not a dig

[scooby]

Drawing a line can be controversial

50 years feels right to me - but then I talk to folks who collect sneakers, outdoor apparel, video games, trading cards - it's tricky

There are probably more fitting threads for those jeans though - most of us come here for the real old stuff

 

I ask myself, how many times was OSHA violated in these jeans?

Oh? OSHA didn't exist? Okay, they're vintage

[MJF9]

😲

[aho]

More Japanese Youtube content, but wow those 22's at the 20:15 mark

 

[Dr_Heech]

Here are some nicer images of the $240k 1890's recently discussed in the other thread,  before they disappear into some museum. These courtesy of mushroom vintage.

2 notable things for me. The close up of the crotch construction with what looks like a gusset(?) type thing going on - where's @Sansome1877 when you need him? Secondly, is that a pair of og canvas one pocket duck pants in the first shot? Guy must have spent a fortune.

 

 

 

[julian-wolf]

The gusset almost looks after-market??

[Dr_Heech]

22 minutes ago, julian-wolf said:

The gusset almost looks after-market??

Actually there are two similar pairs in the 501XX book #1 and #51 and pair #1 have a similar gusset type crotch, albeit a single line of stitching rather than the two rows of stitching along the centre line from crotch to waistband at rear.

[shredwin_206]

How come no one does the gusset on the repros. Let’s get Freewheelers on board. Haha 

[Double 0 Soul]

The gusset has been done.. albeit not an exact repro of the above.. bob dale thrifted a pair of single pocket LVC samples with the crotch gusset.. also, remember those SE x SC with the bright yellow pocket bags from 2009 (ish) era?.. i seem to remember, they had a small crotch gusset but i can't seem to remember the SC number? .. someone will chime in

edit- or was it a crotch reinforcement?.. i can't remember

Edited November 6 by Double 0 Soul

[Maynard Friedman]

SExSC06

[Double 0 Soul]

I always said you'd make a good mod.. so it was a reinforcement rather than a gusset

[aho]

My guess is the upcoming "Amoskeag" Ooe pairs will be similar, though it isn't clear what exact year they'll be based on. Would be cool if they have the gusset as well, they've done some good AHEM...crotch work...and button fly work in the past

[indigoeagle]

I didn't know, what a gusset is in German, so I looked it up: it's called "Zwickel". Had never heard that word before.
There is also a kind of beer called "Zwickl", which is a test siphoning off, a sample of the young beer, before filtration, which is a beer in its own right now. In this case Zwickl refers to the tap through which the beer is siphoned off. Not sure, if these two words are related.
 

[Dr_Heech]

On 9/23/2024 at 12:31 PM, Dr_Heech said:

Lvc 1937 at the bottom, Csf 1941 in the middle and FW42's at the top. Both the repro 37 and 42 models have the standard yoke set up, whereas the pair in the middle do not.

The standard yoke set up is what we are used to seeing on 501's made from August 1942 up until the present day which sees the bottom panels overlap the top ones, like on the lvc 37's and FW42's shown.

The non-standard yoke set up is the csf 1941 pair in the middle. It sees the top panels overlapping the lower ones, a feature which just about 99% of the denim pants manufacturers used in their jeans construction at the time, only levis waited until c.1940 to do it, then flipped it back c.April 1942. 

 

Hopefully cleared all that up now 🙃

 

@indigoeagle here is a YouTube video of the forthcoming SC42 model and they discuss the differences between the Levi's 37, 41 and 42 models. 

Edited November 16 by Dr_Heech

[aho]

 

[shredwin_206]

these boss of the road repros look awesome. 

[CSL]

A set of Levis trade cards just sold on Ebay. Interesting to me, the 1st pic guy appears to have his jacket tucked into his pants.

[indigoeagle]

I've been discussing this a little with @beautiful_FrEaK, a simple overview of the jeans mostly focussed upon here, i.e. from 36 to 55.
We noticed that the 47 has of course been widely discussed, as have in the recent years the different WWII and 46 models.
On the different 50s models there hasn't been that much discussion, I found.

These are, I think, the main characteristics regarding denim and cut.

36/37:
probably the widest fit (thigh, knee, hem)
dark denim
denim relatively smooth
stitch colour: mostly tobacco/orange (LVC has some lemon/yellow in it)

42:
two versions, one with cinch, one without, already coarser WWII denim
stitch colour: yellow
WWII: different versions, but generally higher rise,
wider in the thigh and knee, a little tapered,
dark denim
relativel coarse (neepy and slubby to various degrees) denim
stitch colour: yellow
 

46/47:
Rise a little lower than the WWIIs
Upper thight a little less than WWIIs, knee similar to WWIIs, hem wider than WWIIs, thus straighter, hardly any taper
less dark denim, more blue
relatively smoother denim
stitch colour: orange and yellow
47 tab one sided (katamen)

50s- there seem to be three main model: 1951, 1953 and 1954 (and on)
1951-
little lower rise compared with the 47, similar thigh, less knee and hem
denim again a bit brighter
similar denim to 47
stitching is mostly brown with some yellow
tab both sided (ryomen)

1953- the year the type 2 jacket was introduced
while the 51 became slimmer in the knee and hem than the 47, the 53s got wider than the 47s again in the knee and hem
denim seems similar to 47 and 51
stitching is mostly brown with some yellow (rainbow stitching) with the arcs from the WH version in yellow
shorter side stiches
no more selvedge in the coin pocket
narrower v-stitch
tab both sided (ryomen)

1954- very similar to the 1953
according to the WH models the hem is a little wider
switch to more mass production had the back middle belt loop move a bit to the left, offset --> easer to sew as the material/fabric is not as thick
the WH model still has the leather patch, later switch to paper patch
yarn colours like 53 model

1956- The FW model is even slimmer than the 1951 one, knee and hem

Now while the FWs, TCB and WH 50s models I checked all had mainly brown stitching with some yellow (waist, arcs, ...) the 50s models of Cushman (lot 22177) and also Joe McCoy (905S) have mostly yellow stitching.
Cushman



 

Joe McCoy



So where there models in the 50s with mostly brown stitching and others with mostly yellow?
Or is this based on specific year models?

Perhaps something is stated in the 501 book.

Here are some helpful measurements and overview graphics from the Duke.

Edited December 1 by indigoeagle

[CSL]

^^^Very interesting & informative^^^ 

Thanks for taking the time to do this.

[Dr_Heech]

Love these tiny salesman samples and wouldn't normally bother posting but for it's rarity l just had to this once. And just for the record,  l am not Dr levis.

 

 

Edited December 12 by Dr_Heech

[silencejoe]

probability my last purchase 

Lee S91 j 

[Dr_Heech]

Lovely @silencejoe why is it your last purchase may l ask?