Shoes that look better with age...

[Maynard Friedman]

Forgive my ignorance here on the whole Goodyear welt issue concerning GGiS's OSBs (those acronyms look awful next to each other!).

Isn't it simply the case that the upper is stitched to the mid-sole, which is in turn glued to the rubber sole? The existence of the mid-sole allows for resoling when the rubber sole wears out. Isn't this the same as Red Wings? Unless the stitching is visible at the bottom of the outer sole (as with leather-soled Goodyear-welted shoes) why would you think that the shoes were fully Goodyear welted, unless it stated that explicitly in the product description?

Apologies if I'm talking nonsense here or am missing the point of the discussion.

Edited September 3, 2014 by Maynard Friedman

[themexican]

Yeah that's how it works, but in Garden's case it wasn't even stitched to the mid-sole. 

[Maynard Friedman]

Thanks, that'll teach me to read the posts properly and look at the pictures before commenting! Very strange, if they've gone to the bother of actually stitching the upper, then why not stitch it through the mid-sole too? Can't be much extra work in that I'd have thought.

[garden gnomes in space]

The Mexican is correct.  Its basically a decorative welt, glued down with fake stitching that doesnt even go through the midsole.  And the repair they did was pretty much a joke.  I mean, it functions but its sloppy as hell and I am confident I could have done a better job.  Its really too bad, but I guess those who ride the "heritage" wave and cut corners should expect to get called out from time to time.  

[fre-co]

Welp, I copied Aho and bought his Wesco's. I'll have them in October when I am in the US. Pictures then.

[Crat]

I'm sorry to hear/see that Gnomes Don't like it when companies pretend their products are something they are not. I've seen these decorative welts before and they are an  abomination, sold by the meter. I wouldn't call it cutting corners but the plain misleading of gullible customers. My TBC boots (from before they were made in the USA) were my mistake. 

 

 

Regarding the visibility of the the stitching, with some higher-end GY (dress) shoes the stitching isn't visible from the sole. An incision is made in the sole and the then the sole is stitched to the welt through the incision which is then closed up again.

 

incision

 

 

 

what it looks like when finished.

[Noodle36]

****Warning**** Pic Heavy

I picked something up yesterday

 

 

 

 

Worn with a pair of Strike Gold 23 oz

 

 

 

 

 

Sorry about quality of pics.  iPhone.  Anyways these are my Sagara MTO Valiants.  Took a little time but well worth it.  A long story that if interested DM me...but they are a hand made boot with a double leather sole and Sagara does not use any automation in their production.  Last is perfect for my feet and dbl leather sole gives me support for climbing etc.

[cander49]

Anyways these are my Sagara MTO Valiants.

 

I'll be curious to see how these work for you.  Sagara was nothing but a headache for me, so I didn't want to support them and just got rid of my pair.  My leather laces ripped in half the first time I tried to lace them up, and they refused to send a new pair.  They admitted fault, but didn't want to spend money to ship a replacement, so they didn't.  Oh, and they tried to steal $30 from me.  I paid $30 extra for the Cat's Paw Heel, and they couldn't get it in stock, but then refused to reimburse me for the extra cost, saying they'd just give me a discount on a future pair.  I only got the reimbursement for the $30 when I threatened a chargeback on the entire purchase (prior to them completing and shipping).  Oh, and they took a full month longer than promised.  What else?  Sizing wasn't even close.  I ordered a half size down as recommended and they were a full size too big.  The boots seemed reasonably well made, but this company might actually have worse customer service than any other company I've ever worked with.

[edmond]

its fucking indonesia man. artisans might be there but service oriented people are businessmans not artisans you know that

[Aries]

Just received my Lone Wolf Carpenters.

 

Stunning boots, but I think the 9.5 might *just* be too small for my mutant left foot. Might have to sell them on, will have a few wears to see how they break in.

 

The leather tongue is bloody sturdy, think I'll have some bruised shins after a day of walking!

 

 

Cat's paw!

Edited September 8, 2014 by Aries

[edmond]

awesome carpenters man. howbmuch are they? half the price of the lofgrens right ?

[vgadjo]

Though I understand some of you were a bit annoyed by the previous 3 pages, I'd like to thank everyone for the rants/philosophy/explanations. It was very interesting.

 

I hope the following question will have a few simple answers. Style apart, what's justifying the 300$ price difference between a pair of Viberg Service boots and a pair of AE Dalton Wingtip boots?

 

A major construction enhancement? Leather quality? Hype?

[Aries]

Thanks Ed - not sure how much Lofgrens are, these were $500.

 

Vgadjo - Justification of the price hike, in objective terms, is hard to really drill down to, since we don't know the relative costs of each company's operations. 

 

I do recall it being claimed by Brett that Viberg is a much smaller operation, with more handmade processes, higher quality materials, and a higher paid workforce.

 

From personal experience I can say that leather quality and construction is a large part of it. The leather of my Viberg's, the materials (right down to the brass tacks!) and the craftsmanship are a cut above AE.

 

But is it worth 300 more? Up to you!

[edmond]

again pricing is also part of the owners ego.

viberg owns and operates his factory and selling of his shoes and he wants to jack up prices its totally understandable.

while

lofgren is just a middleman who subcontracts his products to diff factories in japan or china ( who knows!?) jacks his price up which i think is NOT understandable. why? because he does not operate the factory nor pay the salary of the workers or the overhead of the factory. cant justify is prices really .

you guys do the math . im not fucking up lofgren but hes one good businessman. profiting more than what should be.

[jstavrin]

again pricing is also part of the owners ego.

viberg owns and operates his factory and selling of his shoes and he wants to jack up prices its totally understandable.

while

lofgren is just a middleman who subcontracts his products to diff factories in japan or china ( who knows!?) jacks his price up which i think is NOT understandable. why? because he does not operate the factory nor pay the salary of the workers or the overhead of the factory. cant justify is prices really .

you guys do the math . im not fucking up lofgren but hes one good businessman. profiting more than what should be.

 

Ed, please don't start throwing this shit around for no reason.

[edmond]

yeah maybe the madenin china but the hell alright nuff said moving on

[tmadd]

you guys do the math . im not fucking up lofgren but hes one good businessman. profiting more than what should be.

 

"I not trying to talk shit...but let me talk some shit real quick"

 

Who are you to talk about exorbitant profits, you donut slanging sack of shit?

[edmond]

oh shut up tmaddb

[Bibil]

I'll be curious to see how these work for you.  Sagara was nothing but a headache for me, so I didn't want to support them and just got rid of my pair.  My leather laces ripped in half the first time I tried to lace them up, and they refused to send a new pair.  They admitted fault, but didn't want to spend money to ship a replacement, so they didn't.  Oh, and they tried to steal $30 from me.  I paid $30 extra for the Cat's Paw Heel, and they couldn't get it in stock, but then refused to reimburse me for the extra cost, saying they'd just give me a discount on a future pair.  I only got the reimbursement for the $30 when I threatened a chargeback on the entire purchase (prior to them completing and shipping).  Oh, and they took a full month longer than promised.  What else?  Sizing wasn't even close.  I ordered a half size down as recommended and they were a full size too big.  The boots seemed reasonably well made, but this company might actually have worse customer service than any other company I've ever worked with.

 

That is really odd and understandably upsetting.  I ordered Sagara Imperials in their sand leather, midway through 2012, and they were fantastic with their service.  All my other shoes are 9.5 EE, and they were only D.  After much back and forwards over which size might fit me best, based on a 9EE Indy Truebalance, Bagus went and made a 8.5EE last for me. 

There was a delay in the leather, but only by a week or two.  The only thing that happened that I wasn't over the moon about was just before formally ordering, I came across pictures of the Imperial with no toe cap.  I loved them, so ordered without to caps...  Only my boots ended up being made with toe caps anyway.  Nothing to be done at that stage but take them, and they are really very well made.  I would have liked them without, as I had Katahdin Iron Engineers with toe caps, and Indys with Moc Toe, so a clean pair of boots would have been great, but I guess I came across them with toe caps at first anyway.

 

Very comfy boots, and I think they had great service at the time.  But I guess everyone can have different experiences.  I am sorry you were unhappy with yours.

[aho]

Wesco's after a few miles of beach sand, hiking, and city sidewalks:

 

Gave em a good wipe down with a wet cloth and they're like brand new. Tough leather!

[superfuzz]

Those Wescos look great!

[fre-co]

Wesco's after a few miles of beach sand, hiking, and city sidewalks:

 

 

Gave em a good wipe down with a wet cloth and they're like brand new. Tough leather!

pics from the side please. can't wait to get mine...

[Megatron1505]

I'm also excited for my first Wesco's....still 10 weeks to go though 

[CJ23]

"I not trying to talk shit...but let me talk some shit real quick"

 

Who are you to talk about exorbitant profits, you donut slanging sack of shit?

Wow, getting personal and shit over some boots. Lol.

[tmadd]

Wow, getting personal and shit over some boots. Lol.

 

Hey, if I can't have a little fun talking shit with Edmond when he's spouting off bullshit for no reason, then that's a real shame.  If you think any comparison I'm making between boots and donuts is coming from a serious place, I might need to start using the sarcasm meter. (0)

 

But you know what, it gets really close to being something personal and serious for me, when for no reason at all, someone who is reputed to be super knowledgeable about jeans/boots etc. (Edmond) starts hurling around completely unfounded claims about Japanese produced products being produced in China.  Even if everyone in this thread realizes that Edmond is just talking out his ass, there are tons of people who don't post here, and just read as a means of getting information.  When somebody slanders a brand, and gets the rumor mill churning that there is something dubious about where they are being produced, I end up having to answer questions from people who "read somewhere that maybe brand x was being secretly produced in China" which is annoying, obnoxious, and brings my integrity into question.  Now I'm not super worried about anyone taking Edmond super seriously, or really, even being able to read his sloppy run-on sentences, but that's why it's more than "just boots" for me.

[tmadd]

Though I understand some of you were a bit annoyed by the previous 3 pages, I'd like to thank everyone for the rants/philosophy/explanations. It was very interesting.

 

I hope the following question will have a few simple answers. Style apart, what's justifying the 300$ price difference between a pair of Viberg Service boots and a pair of AE Dalton Wingtip boots?

 

A major construction enhancement? Leather quality? Hype?

 

Materials and construction, hands down.  Part of this is honestly how different those boots are in concept.  The AE is a dress shoe at boot height.  I'm not a particularly big fan of AE as it always feels like they use the cheapest leather and components they can get their hands on that will do a passable job of their purposes.  Craftsmanship on their shoes is fine, but nothing beyond doing things the way they should be done.  

 

Vibergs are definitely the most impressively built North American boots I've put my hands on.  All pairs I have seen have great stitching, super clean finishing, and are absent of those tiny little detail flaws you can find on pretty much any pair of footwear if you look closely enough for it.  From a materials perspective, they pride themselves on using only the best leather, and not sparing any cost on things like hardware (brass vs iron nails).  This may or may not be worth it to you…if what you're looking for is a casual dress shoe that will wear and age like a dress shoe, and look appropriate with a suit (in a traditional, conservative way, not "getting away with it" or in a "menswear statement" way), the AE may be the better option.  The Viberg service boots, regardless of what makeup you get, are heavy duty boots that take a lot of wear to start shaping and losing the "new boot" structure. 

 

I have a great deal of respect for Viberg boots, and I really love my pair of Viberg for 3sixteen Johan Specials, but at this point, my favorite boots have been the Whites I own, and my next pair of serious boots will either be Lone Wolves, or, Wesco.  At a certain point, all these things are so far past "good enough" that I make my choices based on tiny details I prefer, or even more abstract things (like the 20 minute drive I have to make to the Wesco factory, and the fact that I see people who sew for Wesco on a weekly basis, or the fact that I'll probably never buy Whites again after ABC-Mart bought them just because I don't want to have anything to do with that).  

 

I'd definitely buy the Vibergs over the AEs any day…even at a wider price discrepancy.

[ironheartfan123]

i was reading through these posts looking for ed's claim that a product is produced in china and couldn't find it; was it deleted?

[beautiful_FrEaK]

it's probably in the post you +repped (on this very page)

Edited September 10, 2014 by beautiful_FrEaK

[tmadd]

i was reading through these posts looking for ed's claim that a product is produced in china and couldn't find it; was it deleted?

 

4304, 4306.

 

 

it's probably in the post you +repped (on this very page)

 

I guess I was right about his sentences being unintelligible?

[beautiful_FrEaK]

yeah you are right about that. Punctuation and spell-check would help (although that very post is one of the easier to understand ones)