Levi's Vintage Clothing

[pomata]

^waked cotton? damn it looks good

[Madder_Lake]

From '09.

Unfortunately it seems that not even Levi's themselves can accurately pinpoint when details changed, honestly I trust the collectors in Japan more often than Levi's. I think a lot of the time now people are using details that they have seen replicated on various LVC models from different collections and different countries as guides to how true vintage Levi's from that time period looked and we all know the errors there.

I don't disagree that there are a handfuls of cross over detailed pairs out there however I would guess by the later 30's that Levi's would have gained control over the consistency of it's product (consistency is the goal of any business, right?) with maybe an exception made during the war.

Lastly, in all of my years of buying/selling/watching/searching out vintage Levi's I can't recall seeing an offset beltloop on a pre mid 50's leather patch pair of Levi's, I have only ever seen this detail on the "every garment.." paper patch.....if you have images of a pair with this detail I would love to see them!!

Airfrog...by the 40's, it was a COIN POCKET.

This contradicts the claim of dating via off-set beltloops but i am sure that there is more to say here and the debate can go on.

On the authenticity of the '54 501Z I found no claim by Paul T. in this thread only similar claims by Dr Heech. I found no claim that it was the result of a customization (though I have a vague memory of reading that somewhere in some thread, just as Dr House does).

So perhaps the '54 was the result of customization, or a short-run production model, or a plan for a model that never materialised (pardon the pun), or perhaps it is just the free-play of LVC dicking around with history, as Paul now claims.

The only thing I am sure of at this point is that I would like some actual evidence that bears on this question. Perhaps if someone were to tell LVC there is this thing called the internet…

[pomata]

man, they don't really care about us

[Paul T]

Seriously - there is no claim by LVC, anywhere, that the 54Z is an 'authentic' model. It was a kind of extra, customised variant. Dicking around, Not a crime. This comes from people at LVC and Cinch. It doesn't relate to a 54 original.

As for off-set belt-loops... I too believe they're mid 50s on. I have heard from collectors that examples varied between factories, but I don't know, however I agree with Partytaco about when they seem to occur.

All that said - in the mid/late 30s, Levi's weren't consistent. THe very shape of their jeans - key construction details in the yoke - varied a lot

[entertainment!]

The one piece of evidence we have on the '54 501Z is in the book published by Levi's called "501:The Evolution of the Jeans". I will scan an image soon. It is hard to look at a picture not knowing the waist and inseam size and make generalizations about the cut. On the other hand, the pair shown seem to be quite full cut and they have a huge rise. (The rise looks longer than the '47 that is shown in the book. There is no picture of a '55.) If someone else has the book and a scanner handy, they should feel free to post a picture.

I can also say from owning a pair of the LVC 1954 501Z that the cut is bizarre. The top block is loose on me, but they are so tapered that my knees hurt after wearing them for an hour or so. I just can't believe that they are an authentic cut.

[Stratos]

So, this entire discussion boils down to: 'should LVC stick to replica's of existing garment or could they take some liberties as well every now and then? I for one think they could IF and only IF they have some serious reasons to assume that the item could/might have been and make those reasons clear and open for discussion. History is not only about finding the actual stuff, it is also using your imagination - within certain rational boundaries. I studied history and really, if historians only stuck to things they are absolutely sure of, it would be a pretty dull science. It isn't; historians are finding new angles of approaching the past every day. Nothing wrong with that, as long as they do stick to scientific principles. In that way: I am still convinced that there are rational arguments to claim that the '54Z cut is at least historically possible...

[Madder_Lake]

Seriously - there is no claim by LVC, anywhere, that the 54Z is an 'authentic' model.

If you call the model the '54 501Z then given the naming of the other models you are implying I think, that this model is a repro of a 50's original. I think this is misleading advertising on LVC's part. And I think they could be successfully sued over it. (Not that I am going to try!)

It was a kind of extra, customised variant. Dicking around, Not a crime. This comes from people at LVC and Cinch. It doesn't relate to a 54 original.

So not even the result of a customisation in the 50's then. No plans that were found in a draw? Gawd!

As for off-set belt-loops... I too believe they're mid 50s on. I have heard from collectors that examples varied between factories, but I don't know, however I agree with Partytaco about when they seem to occur.

All that said - in the mid/late 30s, Levi's weren't consistent. THe very shape of their jeans - key construction details in the yoke - varied a lot

So each factory worked to their own plan then? Bizarre.

Anyway thanks Paul.

[entertainment!]

In that way: I am still convinced that there are rational arguments to claim that the '54Z cut is at least historically possible...

I would say that we cannot prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the cut did not exist but that preponderance of evidence suggests it didn't. And I trained as a historian too. The most likely explanation of the cut is that LVC just wanted a slim cut jean to satisfy that marketing niche, not because they based it on a historical precedent.

[Stratos]

@entertainment! Oh well, but I totally agree with you on the marketing niche argument. You could say that, just like any historian looks at history from his 'present' point of view, Levi's is looking its past from a current fashion point of view with the '54's. Honestly, I don't see what's wrong with that? They are still 'recreating' history - albeit freewheeling - and that's what they're supposed to be doing, isn't it? I mean, as long as they don't put a cinch on '66's or red tabs on 1890's

[entertainment!]

I have a feeling I wouldn't be arguing so hard for the historical inaccuracy of '54s if the damn jeans weren't so uncomfortable for me to wear. I think it is good that Levi's makes a skinny cut with Cone selvage denim and other vintage details.

[Stratos]

Amen to that Mine fit well though ;-)

[entertainment!]

^Given all the variation in LVC production, maybe the ones you have are a more authentic cut than mine!

[rnrswitch]

If we can get rnrswitch to go back to the 1950s (in the time machine he used to check he won the ROY contest) and undertake a comprehensive analysis of the jeans of that era, we can finally put an end to this debate once and for all.

I would totally do this, but I haven't developed it yet. Future rnrswitch told me I develop it sometime in March. When future rnr makes his rounds I will ask him what the rub is on 50s jeans. I have a feeling he is going to tell me to get a life. I seem to not have any patience for this kind of stuff in the future. Unlike me, future rnr is kind of a prick. Don't tell him I said that.

[Stratos]

Could be, mine are not exactly 'skinny', more like 'slim fit'. I believe I made a comparison to a pair of current Lee Zed's earlier on in this thread. I'd never wear skinny jeans matter of fact, look ridiculous on me

[Madder_Lake]

^Given all the variation in LVC production, maybe the ones you have are a more authentic cut than mine!

^^ LOL.

One of the puzzles for me is why the chose the year 1954. I've just been trying to find some 501-related cultural milestone that might justify this date. But Streetcar Named Desire, the film, was '51 and the play was '47. (Brando had customised 501's for the play.) And The Wild One was '53. (The jeans look pretty skinny there, but have no idea about customisations.) So why '54?

[Stratos]

^^ LOL.

One of the puzzles for me is why the chose the year 1954. I've just been trying to find some 501-related cultural milestone that might justify this date. But Streetcar Named Desire, the film, was '51 and the play was '47. (Brando had customised 501's for the play.) And The Wild One was '53. (The jeans look pretty skinny there, but have no idea about customisations.) So why '54?

Perhaps because that's when they produced the first zippered version?

[Madder_Lake]

Perhaps because that's when they produced the first zippered version?

Yup perhaps.

But here is a guess about the origin of the cut and the date. Here is Marlon Brando walking on the set of The Wild One, a photo taken by the photographer Phil Stern. The date says 1954 but that might be out by a year.

Now don't those look like the 501Z cut? Very skinny leg and largish upper block.

[setterman]

Perhaps because that's when they produced the first zippered version?

yes, '54 was the first year for the z model.

the lvc 501z is an imaginary design, slim and tapered, ready to sell to hipsters. to try to connect it to the vintage jeans in any thing other than name, is grasping straws.

[BAerts]

Yeah, but wasn't Brando wearing the button fly, original "55" style? The 501z was the zipper version. He may be wearing a true sized '47 cut. Remember, the LVC '47 is based on the downsized biker style from the 1947 Hollister, CA riots. So, in the movie, they may have sized up (as per Levi's recommendation) and washed them. Additionally, "The Wild One" was released in 1953. Jeans could have been from any era in between '47 and '53. In "The Wild One", some guys are wearing a slimmer, downsized motorcycle look, some guys are wearing a looser fit, more similar to a 55, or maybe a true sized '47. I'm no expert, just some thoughts.

[Madder_Lake]

Lucinda Ballard was the costume designer for Streetcar Named Desire, stage play and film.

Here is a passage from Manso's bio of Brando:

Lucinda Ballard "invented the first pair of fitted blue jeans, changing forever not just the face of theatre but American fashion. 'I thought of them as though they were garments in the time of the Regency in France,' she said, 'which meant fitting the Levi's wet, pinning them tight. I had seven pairs and I washed them in a washing machine for twenty four hours.' After tailoring, during which Brando insisted on wearing no underwear, he leaped gleefully around the fitting room. 'This is it,' he shouted. "This is what I've always wanted!"

So Setterman. Who is grasping at straws again?

LOL cheers

[erk]

this is silly.

the LVC 501z is just a Levi's ploy to get people to buy jeans by appealing to the skinny jeans trend.

maybe we wont see things like this now that the made and crafted line is out. or maybe not.

[dr.house]

I believe Paul has mentioned several times throughout this thread that the change in pattern took place in '52 or '53, and I've seen Japanese publications that also refer to 1953 as the start date of the "50s model".

Here's some nice pictures 501s that would have been made in '53 or '54. Leather patch, offset belt loop, and (at least to my eye) the '50s shape.

http://theselvedgeyard.wordpress.com/2009/01/02/vintage-levis-501-jeans-i-ask-you-is-there-anything-better/

Thanks a LOT for the link! Can't rep must spread.

^^ LOL.

One of the puzzles for me is why the chose the year 1954. I've just been trying to find some 501-related cultural milestone that might justify this date. But Streetcar Named Desire, the film, was '51 and the play was '47. (Brando had customised 501's for the play.) And The Wild One was '53. (The jeans look pretty skinny there, but have no idea about customisations.) So why '54?

The year 1954 was the introduction of the zipfly 501. I suspect they've found some customized 54's and reproduced them in a more or less liberal way, a modern interpretation of a vintage jean. I've got that 501 book too and I agree, the 54's looks huuuge on that pic, in any way much closer to the 55's cut (no 55 in the book cuz' they don't do 55 repros that year). Was there a 54 LVC made in japan? I've seen a 53 japan-lvc somewhere*. My 54's are downsized and prewash, but I like their cut, nice summer jean:

Edit: Here's the 1953 (buttonfly) japanese 501:

http://en.item.rakuten.com/super-rag/lvc53501-0004/

[Sansome1877]

My wife's grandfather wore only 501's in the 1930's up until he died in the late 1970's. He was an avid hunter and fisherman, we have photos of him in his Levi's that I will post in a few days.

[dr.house]

My wife's grandfather wore only 501's in the 1930's up until he died in the late 1970's. He was an avid hunter and fisherman, we have photos of him in his Levi's that I will post in a few days.

Great, Michael!

[Sansome1877]

I will post two pictures from 1953 next.

[roy6]

this is silly.

the LVC 501z is just a Levi's ploy to get people to buy jeans by appealing to the skinny jeans trend.

maybe we wont see things like this now that the made and crafted line is out. or maybe not.

I'm afraid we'll actually see more of it. The sub-line of LVC's non repro vintage style items are not separated from the main, repro items in any retailer I've seen. I bet that the distinction continues to blur.

The only thing that separates them now is that the non-repro items have a hang-tag reading "A vintage reproduction by Levi's", In the current season LVC has two leather jackets, a duck hunting jacket, army khakis, several shirts, a bunch of belts and bags, and I suspect that shawl collar jacket, that aren't actually reproductions.

Given that LVC is now willing to make new, vintage looking designs under their label, and have made not entirely accurate repros of jeans in the past for marketing purposes, I don't see any reason why they would suddenly draw a hard line and only make accurate historical repos for their denim offerings going forward.

There have been other items as well as jeans in past seasons that weren't true Levi's repros. The '70s 'Scorched up' jacket, from 2002, is a repro of a East West Musical Instruments 'Barnstormer' jacket, not a Levi's garment. The LVC jacket is on the left, the EWMI jacket on the right:

[Paul T]

this is silly.

the LVC 501z is just a Levi's ploy to get people to buy jeans by appealing to the skinny jeans trend.

maybe we wont see things like this now that the made and crafted line is out. or maybe not.

I think it will continue.

If the results are good, I'm all in favor of it, personally. But it should be executed with clarity, so people know what they're getting. There will be more than a few people who've bought the 54Z thinking it was an authentic cut. only to be shocked with the modern, hipster result.

There have been other customised pants before, as I mentioned I especially like the Lot 66. And as ROy mentioned, with other items - I bet including the shawl knits and maybe jacket - they're repro-ing non-Levi's clothing.

Excellent photos, Mike, thanks!

[Sansome1877]

Vern Miller in 1953.

First photo has my father in law in the middle(Russ Miller) I don't know if his grandfather on the left is wearing Levi's? I know Russ is wearing Levi's, this photo is from 1953, the next post will be from 1955.

[Sansome1877]

I have to ask Georgia who is still alive at age 92, how often did Vern get a new pair of pants. I have a few photos from the 1940's, you can really see a difference with the 40's Levi's. I can get high res scans of these photos in a few days, and replace the photos I put up. Thanks Paul.

[dr.house]

Thanks for those fantastic pics!