Roy. (expurgated edition)

[PeterParker]

There have been some very valid points raised about ROY making the move to SE; however, so much of this judgement is based on how ROY ran his business before. The consensus is that the guy was nuts for offering what he was at that price, and we all knew that it wasn't going to last forever.

Let's face it, ROY has achieved celebrity status, and like it or not, this thread played a huge part in him becoming famous. While everyone who dealt with him before the big move felt "a personal connection" to the guy, he doesn't owe anyone shit. I am sure he is the same congenial person, but at the end of the day he's running a business and is going to do what he thinks makes the most business sense.

It's analogous to your beloved indie band blowing up. Concerts used to be more intimate and price of admission was cheaper, but now there's mass appeal. Music's still good, but due to demand the price of admission has gone up. Maybe after the celebrity wears off, ROY will return to his roots and we can all buy sweet jawnz for $150 again.

[ranonranonarat]

maybe he will. but the reason why most of us are up in a bunch is the exact reason you gave. honestly i think most of us here would have been willing to pay a price of ~225USD for his stuff. i would have personally. the way i see it is that if he alienates his old customers, whats he stand to gain. lets be honest, a lot of the guys here are brand loyal. snake and aho love warehouse and they buy pair after pair after pair. paul loves his lvc and same goes for beatle and her IHs.

right now i think a lot of his old customers are feeling a little out of sorts with the new pricing and maybe even how the new cut is going. just wondering how many new customers are willing to pay 275USD when they could easily get LVC/samurai/flathead for approx the same price or even less?

only time will tell. i could be wrong but i hope this guy doesnt fall. sincerely i hope he can prove all of us wrong and carve something out of it because hes been great with us so far.

[zissou]

Where does this perceived suitable price of $200-225 come from? The reality is, we have no idea what Roy's costs are for producing a pair of jeans. We also don't know how hard it was for him to handle all of the orders he had. It sounds like he has a lot going on in his life and was overwhelmed. The fact that SE is carrying his jeans implies that they are as good or better than what's coming out of Japan, so that would imply to me that the new price is relatively fair, especially if he is selling wholesale to SE.

[Medine]

Honestly, I love Roy and I was planning to buy a 2nd gen pair but now with the price, im simply not sure. Im sure he will be fine but, I think if he wants to stay competitive he will need to introduce a full cut soon & come out with his shirts & jackets. with more products out, hopefully he would be able to lower the price of his jeans to at least $250 but that will probly not happen.

I think that this debate would never be taking place if Roy never sold the jeans for $150, everyone that got them for that price should feel extremely lucky, $125 off?! That's one hell of a discount

[Maynard Friedman]

Where does this perceived suitable price of $200-225 come from? The reality is, we have no idea what Roy's costs are for producing a pair of jeans. We also don't know how hard it was for him to handle all of the orders he had. It sounds like he has a lot going on in his life and was overwhelmed. The fact that SE is carrying his jeans implies that they are as good or better than what's coming out of Japan, so that would imply to me that the new price is relatively fair, especially if he is selling wholesale to SE.

I think it's a simple calculation of what people think is a fair price relative to the original price of $150. A 50% price increase for anything is steep enough but a price hike of 83% (!) is bound to cause consternation. Regardless of whether $150 was viable, that is the yardstick we're measuring against, not Japanese jeans with extra distribution costs, currency fluctuations and import duties.

The key thing is ROY's business aspirations and what he feels is the best model for him. That is now clear to all whether they like it or not.

The move from manufacturing and selling directly, to manufacturing and selling via a retailer will presumably account for a significant element of the increase as now 2 parties need to make a profit rather than 1. That's just business.

[Joseph Hill]

It seems to me that ROY was making jeans in his spare time while making his income at a metalwork shop. If he makes alot more jeans (and other things) then he will necessarily have to work much less at the metalworks (if at all) and now has to actually derive his income from said jeans. There is now a true cost figured into the price rather than an artificially subsidized one. Selfedge has a cut now as well. I can understand the kneejerk resentment on that one. I felt it myself, but they're providing legitimate service in marketing and a large sales avenue. It's sily to think they should do it for free. In situations like this I prefer to say that I can't afford the price rather than that the price is too high.

[FACE]

lol @ $275, I wouldn't pay that much for a pair especially from the og price. I understand "mark up" to cover "costs" but shit. And thing is Roy has no one to answer to, he doesn't have to come in here and state why the cost went up, but we also don't have to buy his jeans. It is what it is, I've never gotten in the way of a man making his money, just know it wont be mine.

[cash]

Listen to Mr. Hill, folks. The man speaks the truth (can't rep, sorry).

My two cents: Everything changes, boys. Count yourself lucky if you're clad in some Gen-01 ROYs -- the seat seems roomy enough to house that extra Benjamin.

[smittybat]

I'm willing to pay a premium for a product made by an artisan in USA with USA made fabric. That said I did get my pair when he was selling them at $150. We don't know what the wholesale price for these are now, and probably never will.

[Vinneus]

Maynard FTW!

[setterman]

The market will decide what price is acceptable. $275 is a VERY reasonable price point,

Right, the market decides the price, and right now $240 to $300 has become the acceptable range for premium selvedge denim. They charge that much because they can. People quit buying jeans at that price, things change.

As for $275 being a reasonable price point.... I guess it depends on your definition of reasonable. I've paid that much for several pair of jeans... I can't call that price or my purchases "reasonable".

[PeterParker]

^ Agreed about price point. In that territory I am looking for something interesting and extraordinary in the denim (first class fit, construction, and finish are a given). Not sure if ROY offers that with the Cone denim...

[rnrswitch]

Whew. I am just glad to see that this conversation has moved past my horrible waywt pics. Wait, did I just bring it back up... damn!

For me, I have no problem throwing down $275 on these jeans. There aren't many people in the world like ROY with a wide breadth of talents. He does need to be rewarded, but my only issue with the $275 (I know I am gonna get flack for this but) is that it doesn't ALL go to ROY.

[grooveholmes]

^ Agreed about price point. In that territory I am looking for something interesting and extraordinary in the denim (first class fit, construction, and finish are a given). Not sure if ROY offers that with the Cone denim...

What makes the Cone denim Roy uses not-interesting? What makes denim extraordinary?

[Ammit]

Though I don't own a pair of ROYs, and I missed the chance to be able to talk with him throughout the ordering process before, I'm still not sure the price is too terrible. They're hand-made and from what I've seen ROY uses some pretty interesting stitching that I haven't come across on other pairs of jeans, namely the shell stitching. Also, I thought he uses the Cone denim he does because of the irregularity of it/the loom chatter. I'd still consider picking up a pair of ROYs sometime in the future even at the current price point due to them being hand-made in the USA, using some pretty interesting USA made denim.

[Happy Hooligan]

if you just sit back and look at it, a pair of jeans cost anywhere from 8-10 bucks in actual materials. Using a selvedge cotton denim. That's for a guy on the street to buy. Then there is the machine you use, and your time to make them.

On the same note, some art supplies also cost the same to the guy on the boardwalk painting as it does Picasso.

I just want people to know that the actual materials don't cost that much.

[rnrswitch]

if you just sit back and look at it, a pair of jeans cost anywhere from 8-10 bucks in actual materials. Using a selvedge cotton denim. That's for a guy on the street to buy. Then there is the machine you use, and your time to make them.

On the same note, some art supplies also cost the same to the guy on the boardwalk painting as it does Picasso.

I just want people to know that the actual materials don't cost that much.

Excluding machines, materials probably cost close to $30 (denim/hardware/leather patch/thread/pocket fabric). If not less.

[rnrswitch]

What makes the Cone denim Roy uses not-interesting? What makes denim extraordinary?

This gets back to the "tags" of this thread. Way to tie it all in. Pondering deep meaning here.

[Happy Hooligan]

Excluding machines, materials probably cost close to $30 (denim/hardware/leather patch/thread/pocket fabric). If not less.

I can get cone selvedge in LA for $3-4 a yard...

[robbie]

I think what was mentioned by several when the move to SE was just conjecture still rings true: selling them wholesale to SE allows him to focus on the production aspect and leave most of the other aspects of the jeans getting to the consumer up to SE.

For the folks in Oakland, the only thing thats changed is the price.

For the rest of us, Roy is still every bit as present. It is not as if he's no longer accepting emails. I am sure he's still every bit as interested in you getting the right size.

This change allows Roy (not roy denim, 'just Roy') to grow and change and be the project Mr Slaper wants it to be.

To quote Don Draper : Change isn't good or bad, it just is.

[rnrswitch]

To quote Don Draper : Change isn't good or bad, it just is.

Hey look at this. I am quoting you quoting me.

[robbie]

Hey look at this. I am quoting you quoting me.

it's crazy, its like me quoting you quoting me quoting you quoting me.

(head explodes)

[GoatJuggernaut]

What weight Cone does he use? The heavier stuff runs at over 6 a yard. Materials ain't all that cheap. Patch, rivets, pocket material, buttons etc... Investing in machines, maintenance, workspace - it adds up. People trying to break it down like it's super cheap to make jeans like this. It isn't. And he takes the time to do all the work himself. Dude deserves to be paid.

[DoitsuJin]

What everybody is saying is after seeing him sell them for 150, it's a bit of a mind fuck to sell them at 275. I don't see why people fail to see that, I think it's a very legitimate debate. Obviously it's the whole process of going to a merchant (SE) which would drive up the price, but like somebody stated in the thread before, how would you feel if your favorite pair of jeans increased its price by 83% in a matter of months?

With that being said, I believe if the price is that big of an issue to you... well, nobody's forcing you to buy them.

[sense.]

you might win some, but you just lost one.

[kiya]

I'm not getting in the middle of all this.. but anybody that's worked in the industry shouldn't be shocked by any of this. Had Roy never considered selling to a retailer he may have never gotten past the one straight leg fit he was making. Now there's two fits, another (wide leg mid-40's style at our request) coming in a few months, and things other than jeans on the way too.

I will say this.. There was no way for Roy to possibly make the jeans AND retail them himself (enjoyably) while moving a number of units to allow him to make jeans for a living.

[mikecch]

Goat Juggernaut, Roy uses 14 oz denim on the Gen 1 pairs.

If what Kiya said is true, then my respect for Ande Whall just doubled - the man does jeans and jackets in a variety of cuts and fabrics...how does he do it?

[dawei69]

I feel very lucky that I was one of the first guys that got in touch with Roy and got a pair for $150 when this thread had 10 posts. I really enjoy having that personal connection with the artisan without going through a middleman (SE). It just like belonging to a secret club. lol XD

Like what RNR said, Roy's Work is definitely worth the $275 price tag... But knowing that less than 50% of what you pay actually goes to Roy... It just doesnt feel right anymore... I think most of the original customers feel a bit annoyed that we are losing that direct connection we had....

@Kiya, I don't think what you say is entirely true esp this:

"There was no way for Roy to possibly make the jeans AND retail them himself "

If Ryo and Hiro can do it from Ooe, and also the awesome ande whall, why is it not possible for Roy??

(both make more than just Jeans)

And I'm sure they ENJOY what they do,, because they love what they do (denim and connecting with people).... why else would they continue what they do??

[ranonranonarat]

I'm not getting in the middle of all this.. but anybody that's worked in the industry shouldn't be shocked by any of this. Had Roy never considered selling to a retailer he may have never gotten past the one straight leg fit he was making. Now there's two fits, another (wide leg mid-40's style at our request) coming in a few months, and things other than jeans on the way too.

I will say this.. There was no way for Roy to possibly make the jeans AND retail them himself (enjoyably) while moving a number of units to allow him to make jeans for a living.

having said that, if 10 customers order 10 pairs of ROY denim, he still ends up having to make the 10 pairs himself and i am pretty sure that people are still going to email him directly with regards to their queries. which leaves me wondering how much work is being cut out for him. if time is what he needs, i'm sure most of his customers are willing to wait a longer period of time in exchange for that personalized touch.

for the bulk of you who are americans, buying something made right from out of home in oakland is appealing. there is still at least that little "made in america" that you guys love. but honestly for someone who's not american like me, question that stands is how is it going to be different from any pair that i can buy besides it being handmade?

[GoatJuggernaut]

dawei69:

"you dont know jack shit about the garmet industry........ roy probably only get $120 for each pair he sells to SE, That bastard Kiya is making all the money"

Ha ha ha, I think you're mad because YOU don't understand the garment industry. Roy getting in stores and increasing his customer base is good for him. Thanks for the negative 'props'. It's the internet, what are you so upset about?