Shoes that look better with age...

[denimjunky]

Cheers. (10)

[smittybat]

rayw44 - Those nomads look great . I almost ordered a pair very similar but ended up going with black instead

I got a time estimate from Bakers on Oct 1 for 8-10 weeks on my pair. Hopefully it won't be much longer than that. I'd like to get them before the end of the year.

[fre-co]

I can't decide whether to go with black, bown or natural cxl on a pair of nomads....

[garden gnomes in space]

The black cxl on my whites is rather boring at the moment. i think its starts to get interesting when the brown starts to peek out from wear and tear. But you cant go wrong with black engineers, so ill shut the fuck up

[CrashTestBrummie]

Found out a couple of things today...

Firstly, C&J won't use shell to make a veldtschoen boot and will only use it for a more 'standard', welted construction. Apparently, shell can bruise easily (especially the lighter colours, as you might imagine) and it mightn't look too good after being turned out and stitched down for a veldt boot. Bit of a pisser for me as, like some of you know, I was hoping to have a decent boot built that would be both rugged and dressy with the right care.

Secondly (and this surprised me), they don't consider shell cordovan to be especially effective for poor, damp conditions. They acknowledge its durability and robustness, but wouldn't recommend using it for a shoe or boot that it likely to be exposed to especially wet conditions due to the way it blisters. For decent water resistance, they recommend using waxy calf, such as their oak wax hide, zug grain, or similar but not shell.

They say you learn something new every day, and I was very surprised to hear the latter point...I'd thought for a looong time that shell, like other waxy leathers, was a good choice for an outdoor boot or shoe...

Back to the drawing board, eh!

[BrownMetallic]

just xposting this fab pair of MOTOR boots

:

Headed to the MOTOR shop tomorrow to pick up some Natural CXL Engineer boots. Might swing over to Moto too and grab a wallet and pair of chukkas

Here ya go.

Edited October 30, 2012 by BrownMetallic

[rungo]

...

Secondly (and this surprised me), they don't consider shell cordovan to be especially effective for poor, damp conditions. They acknowledge its durability and robustness, but wouldn't recommend using it for a shoe or boot that it likely to be exposed to especially wet conditions due to the way it blisters. For decent water resistance, they recommend using waxy calf, such as their oak wax hide, zug grain, or similar but not shell.

They say you learn something new every day, and I was very surprised to hear the latter point...I'd thought for a looong time that shell, like other waxy leathers, was a good choice for an outdoor boot or shoe...

Back to the drawing board, eh!

I think that the specific point about being a poor choice is more related to aesthetics than true durability of the leather, because the shell cordovan is a finish on the flesh side of the leather rather than the grain side, under very wet conditions I could see the finish itself actually looking blistered after a while, without proper care. In terms of raw durability, its super tanned saturated horse hide at the end of the day, it should be as close to indestructible as you can get in a leather.

To be honest, I'd love to see what it looked like after a right thrashing, not something you come across too often.

[coleslawyum]

Some guy thoroughly thrashed his Wolverine 721 on SF. He's been on hiking trips, knee deep in rivers and all kinds of other crap. And after all that, a bit of oil and a brushing, the cordovan leather still look great. I'll try to find the link sometime.

[PeterParker]

Here is the thread.

[garden gnomes in space]

I dont really see the point in thrashing your boots like that, mostly because there are much better alternatives these days for the light duty hiking application. I dont buy japanese denim to work in, even though its technically workwear. I wouldnt buy Indy's or Wolverine's to hike in or wear to the construction site, even though they are technically work boots. Although I would love to see a deadstock pair of Wolverines from 1914 and a current pair side by side to see how they stack up to each other.

[kansas]

^^ some of the alden shell fanatics on SF would rather catch fire than have their cordovan's touch water. i like the trashed then brought back to life look.

[mlwdp]

One tear rolled down my right cheek when I saw the pics of the "damage" to those boots.

[Salt Lake City Slim]

Related to thrashed and rehabed cordovan: http://leffot.com/2011/04/17/cordovan-and-why-we-love-it/

[CrashTestBrummie]

Some guy thoroughly thrashed his Wolverine 721 on SF. He's been on hiking trips, knee deep in rivers and all kinds of other crap. And after all that, a bit of oil and a brushing, the cordovan leather still look great. I'll try to find the link sometime.

Here is the thread.

Cheers, lads. I'd actually seen that thread before and forgotten about it (although I remembered straight away that I'd originally found the OP's style a little bombastic on reopening the thread!).

Certainly have to applaud the OP for not treating the boots with kid gloves, though, and they do look good for it.

Does all shell blister when exposed to water, or does it vary based on different contributory factors? And, if blistered, does it take long to brush the boots or shoes back to their original condition? If so, this might partially explain C&J's recommendation as waxy calf leathers don't even need this after a dousing in water.

Can the blistering caused by water have a longer-lasting effect on the shell? I would imagine that the blistering is caused by wax being forced out of the leather, due in part to shell being more porous. Anyone have any thoughts on this, and whether or not this wax loss would affect the longevity of the shell? Certainly, zug and gorse leather looks a lot better with age and doesn't look great at all when brand new. Maybe C&J feel that shell deteriorates at a faster rate when exposed to too much damp?

Shell, of course, hasn't really been a traditional British material when it comes to shoemaking (as opposed to plain old horsehide) and even now, it's mainly used to cater for overseas demand.

The vast majority of C&J's shell footwear orders are from American or German customers, and any domestic demand for it seems to have been the result of the overseas demand for it crossing back across the Atlantic, in particular.

A lot of questions and points, I know, and it would be interesting to hear other points of view as this was a bit of a revelation for me (and it came from pretty high up the C&J chain).

As my contact said, it might mean that they lost out on an MTO that would have come with a pretty hefty price tag, but at least they felt that they'd given sound advice based on my requirements...

[rkusmant]

Have you checked with Sargent? I'm curious what different opinion that might come out, or maybe plain agreement with C&J.

I'm still dreaming about the zug/shell boots you planned before...

[CrashTestBrummie]

No, not checked with Sargent but...out of my 'big four' English shoemakers (Sargent, Edward Green, Tricker's and C&J - can't comment on Cheaney although they seem to be reliable as ever), only EG and C&J seem to be more concerned at the moment with quality over quantity.

Certainly, AS and Tricker's are still churning out a lot of good-to-excellent stuff, but I've heard anecdotal evidence from a couple of sources that they're over-producing to meet current demands and, by doing so, sometimes their quality slips a little.

Part of Sargent's problem may be their commitments to the French market, given that I understand that French capital helped them turn around their recent financial issues, in part at least. If this is the case, then increasing international interest in their higher-end lines will be stretching them.

And I don't think Tricker's are doing themselves any favours by jumping into bed with anyone and everyone who fancies a fancies a cheeky collaboration - they're turning into the slappers of the bootmaking world

Fairly certain there are comments on this thread, going way back, about Alden being in a similar position a while back due to their increasing popularity due, in part, to online exposure.

EG and C&J aren't doing this (waiting time for EG MTO is currently several months, and C&J have a backlog of orders for numerous stockists who rebrand their shoes), and I'm kind of inclined to follow C&J's lead on this as they seem to put quality before other considerations...

(On a side note, I don't think it will be long before you can find C&J products only at their own shops, especially now they have their own mail order business at Royal Exchange.)

The zug/shell boots would have been great, but the fact that I can't have them as veldtschoen coupled with C&J's own comments regarding shell's water resistance have kinda blown that idea out of the water.

[Maynard Friedman]

Yeah, Trickers are getting their tongues out for anyone these days, it won't last I tell you, they're losing their sole and they'll end up getting shafted themselves, etc, etc...!

[exaptavist]

.

Edited October 8, 2015 by hoggreaser

[big truck]

Spoken like a true yorkshireman

[exaptavist]

.

Edited October 8, 2015 by hoggreaser

[big truck]

Agreed, it is scandalous but it has to stop somewhere. That is way too high for a fairly unspectacular brogue nowadays. Would rather spend same-ish on a pair of Alden colour 8 longwings.

[CrashTestBrummie]

lol! .. if so only by dubious honorary status, I'm an exiled Southerner in origin..

To be fair, it's not that I think it absurd to spend the kind of money they now command at RRP e.g. £375, it's that I think the £100 price hike over the last year and the £50 alone in a single month just recently is a pretty aggressive strategy - probably just 'cos they're relying on current trend.

All of the Northants makers did it of course, Cheaney, Sargent etc, but Trickers have I think just overstepped the mark, and though I'd love a pair of boots built on the 4444 - somehow, better arch support! - I doubt I'll buy the brand again, new anyway. I also think at that price C&J has better finishing.

The price rises over the past couple of years have been pretty spectacular, especially from Tricker's where they've been producing the same models, albeit in many more variations than before (at least with Sargent, they upped their overall game significantly along with the price rises, although high-end shoes had been available from them for some time but not as widely available as their mainstream models).

C&J's finishing is very good, although I'd still not go to them as first choice for a truly rugged boot as nothing they do (RTW, at least) compares to Tricker's or Sargent's traditional country models, especially anything made in gorse calf (the Malton or Dumfries being the quintessential 'work' brogue boot for me).

[wgmds]

I dont buy japanese denim to work in, even though its technically workwear. I wouldnt buy Indy's or Wolverine's to hike in or wear to the construction site, even though they are technically work boots.

I wear my White's and denim--and duck--to blow glass, weld and do other work activities. What would you use instead?

[garden gnomes in space]

I wear my White's and denim--and duck--to blow glass, weld and do other work activities. What would you use instead?

Thats fine. I was attempting to saying I find it rather ridiculous to wear shell Wolverine's to tromp around swamps and shit. Denim and duck is workwear, but I'll wager the majority of those who labor are not wearing Strike Gold or Flat Head jeans to do it. If Im getting into some grimy work where I know I will be exposed to grease or oil, Ill wear a beat to hell pair of Carhartt's, not my Iron Hearts.

[demonator]

i do wear m samurai and jap jeansfor work ( construction)

[exaptavist]

.

Edited October 8, 2015 by hoggreaser

[CrashTestBrummie]

It's as near as dammit, if not exactly the same - from memory, c-shade might be a little more orangey but I might be mistaken. C&J also have a gorse calf ('fox' gorse, I think) which is in the same part of the colour spectrum as the others. Black gorse also seemed to be used back in the day, and I've an old pair of Edward Green derby brogues that are made from this leather. Not sure if gorse is actually different from any other thick, matte waxy leather or not.

Think I've said this before, but I'm inclined to think of zug simply as embossed gorse leather but someone else on here might know more than I do...certainly Edward Green used to refer to it as 'waterproof zug' but then changed to calling it 'heather gorse'...

[exaptavist]

.

Edited October 8, 2015 by hoggreaser

[TooAwesome]

Can someone tell me the characteristics of calfskin leather? And simple ways to maintain it?

I think I read here that calfskin leather doesn't really crease but instead it folds

Thanks!

[patrick_b]

Thats fine. I was attempting to saying I find it rather ridiculous to wear shell Wolverine's to tromp around swamps and shit. Denim and duck is workwear, but I'll wager the majority of those who labor are not wearing Strike Gold or Flat Head jeans to do it. If Im getting into some grimy work where I know I will be exposed to grease or oil, Ill wear a beat to hell pair of Carhartt's, not my Iron Hearts.

Agreed. Just because those boots they can take it certainly doesn't make it the right tool for the job...leather soles and all.