Sugar Cane Denim

[Dr_Heech]

26 minutes ago, MJF9 said:

@Dr_Heech what deets are bothering you doc?

Well in some of the comparison shots in the magazine the details don't seem the same,  or should l say close enough. For example, the chainstitched hem. This is probably due to the originals being sewn on older outdated machines and the SC's on more modern sewing machines? Maybe l've been spoilt since purchasing CSF? The white selvedge seems slightly different in width to the original or is it the pink line placement is out of kilter (?)  Anyway after careful consideration and analysis of both pairs of jeans, there are too many little differences that irk me, but l am very very picky nowadays when it comes to levis repros. More so than most here l would say. These things are (in my mind at least) significant for example the placement of rivets are out on the 46 pockets by a mm or two etc. But don't let my Ocd ramblings put you off purchasing a pair. Chances are l could still change my mind once they've been posted up here 😂

 

 

[MJF9]

Bears responded on IG to say they're stocking the 43s and 46s and have already sold out in some sizes on pre-order.  No size charts available so it's a punt, albeit educated, as they say people are pr-ordering their usual SC sizes.  Also good to know Self Edge is stocking them too.

Anyone know how consistent SC are with their jeans and denim jacket sizing between models?  

Also any views how their sizing compares to other brands, preferably Freewheelers? 

I will do some online searching and x-checking to estimate... but asking in case anyone here has any intell,

I'm not in with it yet... just gathering data, that's all!!  

[Double 0 Soul]

I'd say.. SC sizing is pretty consistant throughout the range.. i'd even go as far as to say.. one of the more consistant regading measured size compared to tagged.. i do find the waist to be a little more nipped compared to Freewheelers (and some other brands) but from the top block down.. there is nothing to note re- should one size up or down.

Bear in mind that my opinion is based entirely on what the brand churned out between 2008 and 2012.. but i don't think the cuts of their core range have changed at all.

[MJF9]

Cheers OO

Just had a very quick squiz and the jackets I saw look big sized compared to tag... any intel here also of interest folks... thanks

[Double 0 Soul]

Only SC jacket i have to hand is this Junky 46

Tagged 40 and it's tts

 

[julian-wolf]

I’d say a 34 in standard Cane’s is about the same in the waist as a 33 in Freewheelers, although maybe borderline

They seem to have pretty consistent sizing across their main offerings, but the MiUSA run very small, so it wouldn’t be too surprising if this new line was sized differently too…

[AlientoyWorkmachine]

Can only speak for myself but with jeans I have 30s in both FW and SC and the FW tends to be a little more snug - in the waist. The rest is dependent on the cut. 

My assessment of what I own is that SC is in practical terms like a half size bigger than normal FW. I could wear a 29 in canes for fuller cuts - not sure I could really with FW.

Edited October 29, 2023 by AlientoyWorkmachine
Error

[Maynard Friedman]

What? You say FW are more snug than Canes and then say Canes are a half size smaller than FW. Do you mean bigger?

[AlientoyWorkmachine]

Bigger - edited. 

[zachary12]

I agree, I have sz 29 601XX 1951 and sz29 in SC42966A, the SCs are atleast half an inch bigger in the waist

[Double 0 Soul]

15 hours ago, Double 0 Soul said:

I'd say.. SC sizing is pretty consistant throughout the range.. i'd even go as far as to say.. one of the more consistant regading measured size compared to tagged.. i do find the waist to be a little more nipped compared to Freewheelers

This is what i'm talking about regarding the waist comparison

FW-47s tagged 32 measures 33"

SC-47s tagged 32 measures 32"

So as JW surmises

10 hours ago, julian-wolf said:

I’d say a 34 in standard Cane’s is about the same in the waist as a 33 in Freewheelers, although maybe borderline

..this^ is also the case with the tagged size 32 in the 47 cut

Edited October 29, 2023 by Double 0 Soul

[AlientoyWorkmachine]

Strangely my experience is the opposite though less pronounced.
 

I just measured my 601xx 1951 sz 30 - 30”

sugar cane Edo Ai sz 30 - 30.5”

but I think I’m the only one here who feels that Warehouse actually runs slightly large (size 29 1003xx - not quite 30, like 29.8”) 

so maybe I get some off pairs somehow. 
 

I am curious for more data points in the jackets tho - does it run the same as Mister Freedom? I am more often a 40 for jackets but I wear a 38 in the ranch which works for me, and the measurements for a 40 from Bears look straight up too big. 

Edited October 29, 2023 by AlientoyWorkmachine

[Duke Mantee]

Bit late I guess, but (and it’s been a while) SC I’ve always found be reliable and consistent in sizing. I remember way back comparing to FW and as others have said they are very similar … perhaps just a touch smaller than FW, and that could be pattern as much as anything 

Warehouse on the other hand are nearly always about a half to one size smaller than FW in my experience 

[indigoeagle]

A new video.
This time with Fujihara-san from BerBerJin.

He brought a WWII jeans model with OD HBT pocket bags and Levis buttons. So no more laurel and donut buttons, thus probably a few months younger than the vintage 43 one from Sugar Cane.
The price for that is JPY 2.75m, more than EUR 17k.

He said, that pocket bags made from flannel shirts (with sturdy fabric and rich colours) from that time are very rare to find.

He also said, that there is hardly any dead stock to be found nowadays.
He used to tell customers, that they should "Please wear it.".
Now, due to the high prices,  he tells them to "Please store it well."

He had been wearing for two years a dead stock 66 pair to enjoy the fading and encourage customers to do so, too.
With the high prices now, it's difficult. As soon as the flasher is off, the price is affected.

He said, that people were quite slim in the US at that time and wore their jackets rather tightly with the pleats stretched out in many photos.
Mostly in sizes 36-40.
The bigger sizes, 46-50 (with special orders up to 56) were produced, but in lower numbers.
That's probably another reason (besides more puckering), that the "T back" is so sought after, because they're very rare.
The prices for those bigger jackets are three to four times higher than for smaller jackets.
And war time jackets are basically nowhere to be found nowadays. And the prices are crazy. From JPY 10m  (千万円 senmanyen) (ca. EUR 60K) and even higher.

The SC replica will also go up to 50, with a suffix "E" for extra size.

The pants will go up to 40.

He also said, that 15 years or ago the 46 jeans model was sold in some cases as a 47 model. (around 22:20)
After more research in the last ten years he's known the differences.
Because it's already different from the war models. With the arcs, the coin pocket rivet, etc..
Also branded rivets. (20:41)

Apparently the denim is also different:
The 43 is coarser and darker, the 46 already smoother and bluer. (20:07)

The 46 model was kind off unknown until recently.
In his book, Fujihara-san had no category for the 46:
after the WWII models it was the 47 (up to 53 with minor changes in stitching, etc.). 
(I'm wondering, if CSF can be credited with this.
I hadn't heard about a 46 model before.
And it seems, that he also triggered the recent proliferation of different WWII models, no?
Before there were war models like the RMC Lot 003 or the LVC 1944, etc.. But not the differentiation between the various years.)

He sees the 46 model as the first "completed" model.

He's wearing a probably XX1950 pair of jeans in the video (around 27:30). That one he had gotten as a dead stock with the flasher and has been wearing it for 15 years, spilling sake on it, etc..

He's also wearing a T back WWII jacket (ca. 14:40).

Around 15:30 he's showing a 1943 jacket, size 34.
 

 

Edited November 4, 2023 by indigoeagle

[Dr_Heech]

^yes saw this but l'm useless at how to translate (where is my tech minded Mrs when you need her?) 

Thank for the info @indigoeagle. I've often wondered how people find out now how much their old deadstock levis are worth (asking for a friend) not so much the resale value, although that is nice to know; l'm torn between waiting until 2028, when mine are 50 years old, either selling them (depends on monetary value? Silly to wear when they're worth 5k) or wearing them (sorta go with your heart/just enjoy them for the now/jeans were meant to worn etc etc)

I'm in no rush anyway. 

 

Edited November 9, 2023 by Dr_Heech
To edit

[Maynard Friedman]

I’d say keep them until you retire or really need the money Charlie and then sell them if necessary. If a pair of my jeans was worth £5k I’d sell them and just wear a pair of repros instead. Once they’re worn-in and washed, they’re just a pair of nice old jeans anyway.

[indigoeagle]

1 minute ago, Dr_Heech said:

^yes saw this but l'm useless at how to translate (where is my tech minded Mrs when you need her?) 

Thank for the info @indigoeagle. I've often wondered how people find out now how much their old deadstock levis are worth (asking for a friend) not so much the resale value, although that is nice to know; l'm torn between waiting until 2028, when mine are 50 years old, either selling them (depends on monetary value? Silly to wear when they're worth 5k) or wearing them (sorta go with your heart/just enjoy them for the now/jeans were meant to worn etc etc)

I'm in no rush. Got plenty of time, plus l've got a pair of Nos Valencia 201's waiting in the wings first, after l get through my other 10 pairs first 😎

 

The answer is probably in the middle between passion for denim and making some money 🙂

The last ten years or so with the ZIRP (zero interest rate policies) we have basically been in an everything bubble.
This has been exacerbated with the covid phenomenon, of course. Something like every third dollar has been printed in the last four years.
I'm sure with the euro and pound it's similar.

Hence we have seen real estate, rolex watches, vintage guitars, old Porsches, stocks etc. rise tremendously in price.
Now with so far not really stopping rising interest rates in the last 12 months a number of prices have come down already. For some price discovery is probably delayed.
So, they might come down further, as the bubble is deflating.
But who knows, once the economy is suffering too much, rates might be cut again, with more inflation.
At the moment it seems like rates are kept at the current level or are possible even raised more, though.

No advice- just my opinion.

[indigoeagle]

I think, boutiques generally sell for about 3x times the price they buy the goods for.
Not sure, how that margin is for vintage goods, especially the pricey ones.
Perhaps two times or less is enough.
If you can buy some jacket for $5K and resell for $9K or $10K, that is a good cut.

Edited November 4, 2023 by indigoeagle

[indigoeagle]

Two points, that I didn't fully understand.

 

1. Hidden rivets
They're saying, that the 46 is still round and "chubby".
 

 

The FW 47 for example has this dome shaped rivet.

But the one in the video looks different, flat. Might just be the picture and they're similar.


2. Loose threads on the fly and in the pocket, kirippanashi
The 43 still has lose threads, while the 46 is sewn cleanly.
Or is this something else?

Edited November 4, 2023 by indigoeagle

[Dr_Heech]

2 hours ago, Maynard Friedman said:

I’d say keep them until you retire or really need the money Charlie and then sell them if necessary. If a pair of my jeans was worth £5k I’d sell them and just wear a pair of repros instead. Once they’re worn-in and washed, they’re just a pair of nice old jeans anyway.

Yeah Martin,  l've been certainly leaning that way for the last few years. If l could could get the 5k, easily and without bullshit/scammers and whatnot l'd be glad to pick up a couple of pairs of raw 601xx and spend the money on a holiday or a similar treat. Anyway like l said, no rush.

[julian-wolf]

@indigoeagle I think the rivets shown there are indeed the round / chubby kind—compare to, e.g., the ones used at the front pocket opening

As far as I can tell (someone please correct me, otherwise??), there’s no historical precedent for the extra extra chubby backs that The Vanishing West use for the backs of their buttons & hidden rivets

[Double 0 Soul]

Get the timing right @Dr_Heech .. Levis are riding the wave but there will come a time in the not so distant future when all but the good shit is worth next to nothing.. I've seen it with so many nostalgia fuled markets.. classic road bikes for instance, used to be worth cash, then the bottom dropped out of the market (what actually happened is the poeple who collected them got too old to ride them and the next generation didn't care because they wasn't looking through the same rose tinted spectacles (you still see them for sale with big price tickets but nobody is buying them) then the bottom dropped out of the old school BMX market for the same reason.. 90s MTB is currently fetching $$$... because the folks who remember it fondly are in that 40s and 50s with a high disposible income... the folks who were buying the Italian road bikes are now claiming a pension if they're still around.

Old classic cars from the 60s used to be worth cash.. now it's cars from the 80s and 90s, Ford Escorts which used to be worth £800 are now fetching £60k for the same reasons as above.. it's all fueled by nostalgia.. cash rich, men folk who've paid off the mortgage, kids grown up and they're buying back the good old days of their youth which they can now afford.. if you're not viewing old Levi's through a nostalgia lens their value is drastically diminished.. and let's be honest the next generation who're currently in their 20s just arn't... they only know Levi's for what they've been for the last 20yrs.. complete shite!

Edited November 4, 2023 by Double 0 Soul

[Dr_Heech]

Oh yes @Double 0 Soul l am with you on most of those points. This is why l think 50 years for a pair of ds 501's, in a 'golden size' (well golden for me hopefully) of 35x38 (they are stf so final size is roughly 32-33 waist, 34.5-35 inseam), will be their best time to shine.

My Mrs has a considerable collection of hotwheels redline cars and trucks, from 1969-1971, most are still 'mint on card' and even those that aren't are in mint condition. Her dad bought them one by one from the local shop as her mum lay pregnant, obviously hoping for a boy. They've been in a box ever since. I enquired about value and did a little bit of research. Over time l found out they are very valuable (to the right collector) and suggested she might want to consider selling but emotions are strong (her father passed away with cancer when she was 19 so they are special to her). Some years later l mentioned it to her because she was skint at the time. I also pointed out about vintage items peaking in value (although toys rarely do drop in price considerably) but alas she wasn't having any of it and they still lie in a box.

Back on topic l am wearing my SC47's with arcs 🙂

 

[Double 0 Soul]

@indigoeagle.. when i first posted about the CSF-46s over on DB back in 2016

"Conners Sewing Factory have had access to Yawara Miura's 3000 strong Levi's collection and using restored machinery of the era have recreated the rare 1946 model which still featured key elements from WWII restrictions, a transition (if you will) between the 44,s and the yet to come 47,s"

The months preceding was my first introduction to a 1946 model.. i can't remember a 46 model being mentioned on sufu before this date so i would say yes.. you can probably credit CSF with the above. 

I seem to remember .. maybe Duke saying that the FW-47s was actually based on a pair from 1946 but they were called a 47 so CSF did coin the '46' phrase.
 

[Flash]

I think the devis jeans were a few years before CSF iirc , that would have been the first time i remember hearing about a 46 501xx 

[Double 0 Soul]

Yes! you're right.. how the hell could i forget,  i'm currently wearing a pair 

[Double 0 Soul]

Ok.. ignore my previous statement, aho sent me this msg back in 2012

"Not sure if you've been following the Devi's/Denim Project contest thread, but I just wanted to extend the invite to you It's a straight 1946 repro from a denimhead geek in Japan, not a huge brand just a group of like-minded denim otaku that decided to try their hand at a run 7 years ago. Let us know if you want to participate, jeans will be 20000yen and final payment is due in March"

Best,

aho

This^ was the first time i heard of the 1946 model.. credit retracted CSF

Edited November 4, 2023 by Double 0 Soul

[beautiful_FrEaK]

Haha, yes I also thought that the Devis would be the first ones.

Maybe they also used Miura pair as inspiration, who knows?

[indigoeagle]

18 hours ago, julian-wolf said:

@indigoeagle I think the rivets shown there are indeed the round / chubby kind—compare to, e.g., the ones used at the front pocket opening

As far as I can tell (someone please correct me, otherwise??), there’s no historical precedent for the extra extra chubby backs that The Vanishing West use for the backs of their buttons & hidden rivets

That might be the answer.
It would fit with FWs modus operandi to tweak things a little from the historic models, though with their denim, that is probably very little.

And that dome shaped rivet is really a beautiful thing.

[AlientoyWorkmachine]

I recently picked up the SC blanket lined type 2 and the thing I miss most on it is the dome backed rivets. Historical accuracy be damned they are great and all denim should have those. Mostly I wear FW or Tender jackets. I like Tender's rivets using them on the outside as well.