Denim - Fiscal Sense Thread

[JDelage]

I'm amused by reading from people who dismiss Portugal when it is used by a non-Portuguese brand but then turn around and admit they would consider a Portuguese brand. Think about it. Of course, we all choose based on a given minimum quality level and a maximum level of price. Everything else is a shortcut for one or the other. Many Japanese brands outsource most of their production to small production facilities. I don't understand why it should be OK to outsource to other companies that just happen to be located within one's country's borders and not to companies located abroad.

With regard to Indigofera specifically, I am not sure the know how to produce quality clothing exists in Sweden - at any price. Sweden is exceptionally good at producing and exporting fighter jets. Portugal is (I think) better for clothing. Personally, I would be less likely to buy their stuff if it were significantly more expensive but produced locally. 

[dudewuttheheck]

You're still missing the point completely. I'm not trying to convince you, btw.

 

I don't like the reason they are doing it. Though I could be wrong. I would be happy to be convinced otherwise. 

Edited April 21, 2017 by dudewuttheheck

[JDelage]

And I'm not trying to convince you. Here is what I think I understood: you're after quality. The decision to move production to a different country can only be one made for cost cutting reasons. Such decision therefore demonstrate that the company is focused on cost first and quality second. In consequence you choose not to associate with said company.

I don't want to put words in your mouth; this is what I understood from what you wrote. Any error here is due to my misunderstanding.

Edited April 21, 2017 by JDelage

[garden gnomes in space]

 @Foxy2 what do you mean by flexible minimums?  The ability or willingness to run low production numbers?  

For the record, I only mentioned IF because I know the bulk of their product is made in Portugal, which is not where they are from.  Its not about the machine operators nationality.  

 

[mpukas]

40 minutes ago, JDelage said:

I'm amused by reading from people who dismiss Portugal when it is used by a non-Portuguese brand but then turn around and admit they would consider a Portuguese brand. Think about it. Of course, we all choose based on a given minimum quality level and a maximum level of price. Everything else is a shortcut for one or the other. Many Japanese brands outsource most of their production to small production facilities. I don't understand why it should be OK to outsource to other companies that just happen to be located within one's country's borders and not to companies located abroad.

With regard to Indigofera specifically, I am not sure the know how to produce quality clothing exists in Sweden - at any price. Sweden is exceptionally good at producing and exporting fighter jets. Portugal is (I think) better for clothing. Personally, I would be less likely to buy their stuff if it were significantly more expensive but produced locally. 

I agree with this sentiment, and have been thinking the same thing. Portugal is know for producing quality clothing, and especially shoes. Like other manufacturers, they can probably meet any level of price and quality desired by the client. Another reason for outsourcing to Portugal, besides cost, is the infrastructure, skill and labor force. That's not to say that Portugal is the only country that knows how to make quality clothes and shoes, they just know how to achieve a level of quality for a price that's more competitive than US or EU capabilities, which in turn makes for a more economical item for the consumer, which means more sales. 

 

36 minutes ago, dudewuttheheck said:

Though I could be wrong...

Very likely.

 

What you write contradicts yourself from one post to the next. Don't get defensive against other members for not "getting" what you mean, when what you say isn't said clearly. 

[dudewuttheheck]

1 minute ago, mpukas said:

Very likely.

 

What you write contradicts yourself from one post to the next. Don't get defensive against other members for not "getting" what you mean, when what you say isn't said clearly. 

As you can see, I'm not the only one who has a problem with it. Like I said, I'm not trying to convince you so I'm not trying to make a massive, comprehensive argument.

People are missing the point. The main point is that I don't like that the main motivation is to save money. That's it.

[garden gnomes in space]

I had no idea Portugal was a known place for manufacturing.  Maybe Im still in a relic mindstate where Italian, French and English brands make stuff in Spain, Portugal and eastern Europe because of costs.  

[mpukas]

I suspect it's combination of marketing and branding, and a history of international economies. How many Portuguese or Spanish brands are we aware of? Not nearly as many as French, Italian, British, US, etc. Of the few brands we know of, is their quality any less than the better know brands? I don't know exactly, but I suspect none, if not significantly less. I intentionally exclude the JP brands we fawn over since this scene is such an anomaly, and it's it's part of the JP culture to be fanatically good at just one thing. 

 

I also think it's akin to manufacturing in China and Korea - years ago US co's outsourced because it was cheaper, and now they're at the point where they are often better as well cheaper than can be done locally. 

[dudewuttheheck]

The quality probably is fine, possibly better than MiUSA. 

Keep in mind I don't like most MiUSA brands either.

[JDelage]

Cost is always, everywhere, part of the equation.

[dudewuttheheck]

41 minutes ago, JDelage said:

Cost is always, everywhere, part of the equation.

Sometimes a brand cuts little or no corners at all (these are usually very small brands or one man shops) and you just pony up the dough or have a long wait time.

I'll pony up.

[mikecch]

2 hours ago, mpukas said:

I also think it's akin to manufacturing in China and Korea - years ago US co's outsourced because it was cheaper, and now they're at the point where they are often better as well cheaper than can be done locally. 

Haha, my friend mentioned this the other day. Would you buy a smartphone or graphics card that's made in Australia?

[ShootThePier]

I completely get where dwth is coming from. On this sub forum there is an understanding that cost is the least of our concerns with the products we discuss. Because of that there are certain principles we expect manufacturers to adhere to, a sort of unwritten agreement.

I can't speak to Portugal's garment industry standards, quality control or observance of ethical labor practices. It sounds like lower wages in Portugal is a given. Lower wage = lower quality is not a forgone conclusion, but in many other industries it is a strong indicator.

To be fair, if a company puts lower costs above higher quality they are not going to get much favorable discussion here in the long term.

I heard Clark's mentioned as a Made In Portugal brand. I have never tried on a pair, but in discussions I've read comparing them to White's, Wesco, or Viberg, Clarks is always near the bottom.

That is what I was interpreting from dwth's posts.

[mrman]

6 hours ago, garden gnomes in space said:

I think it makes perfect sense.  A Swedish brand making stuff in Portugal is doing it for one reason:  labor costs. I seriously doubt they could not do it locally, the price would just probably be more than most would be willing to pay.   Im not knocking IF, they are a small brand and have to do what they have to do.  For me, knowing that manufacturing got farmed out to a cheaper source would be and is enough to put me off.

...

Made in Italy means made by Eastern Europeans and Africans who get paid a lot less, not some grizzled old Italian who has been a shoemaker for 100 years.    As recent as 2 years ago NGO's found EU labor laws not being followed or enforced.  Its the same here in USA, just substitute Chinese and Mexicans

 

 

I'd like to remind you that Sweden and Portugal, even though they are independent, are working in the same common market, EU. So outsourcing to Portugal is 'local' in the way that encourages commerce within the common market. It's analogous in a sense that a company from California would outsource something to Texas, same common market, different states.

If I get it right, you are against outsourcing in general? Or just from USA to another country? When you buy something, do you personally check the working conditions or how do you choose what to buy, even MiUSA stuff? Or just believe that your favorite brands are doing the right thing? As you said, there are sweatshops in USA, too.

[dudewuttheheck]

26 minutes ago, ShootThePier said:

I completely get where dwth is coming from. On this sub forum there is an understanding that cost is the least of our concerns with the products we discuss. Because of that there are certain principles we expect manufacturers to adhere to, a sort of unwritten agreement.

I can't speak to Portugal's garment industry standards, quality control or observance of ethical labor practices. It sounds like lower wages in Portugal is a given. Lower wage = lower quality is not a forgone conclusion, but in many other industries it is a strong indicator.

To be fair, if a company puts lower costs above higher quality they are not going to get much favorable discussion here in the long term.

I heard Clark's mentioned as a Made In Portugal brand. I have never tried on a pair, but in discussions I've read comparing them to White's, Wesco, or Viberg, Clarks is always near the bottom.

That is what I was interpreting from dwth's posts.

Agreed. Like I said, I cannot say that Portugal's quality is technically worse than other countries.

My Clark's are made in Vietnam. I bought them several years ago before I really got into all this... denim stuff. The quality has actually been very impressive, but on principle I would not buy them again.

[mrman]

20 minutes ago, ShootThePier said:

I can't speak to Portugal's garment industry standards, quality control or observance of ethical labor practices. It sounds like lower wages in Portugal is a given. Lower wage = lower quality is not a forgone conclusion, but in many other industries it is a strong indicator.

You say that you can't speak of these things and still think that it's a given that the quality in lower. Lower wages do not equate lower quality, necessarily. It might be that the labor force is skilled but the local living costs are lower and thus you get the skilled labor force for less. Of course, it might be the opposite, too. But I doubt that it's the case with Portugal.

Another interesting observation, how many of you have been to Portugal and really know something of the country? Or are your sentiments built on supposition?

[garden gnomes in space]

22 minutes ago, mrman said:

I'd like to remind you that Sweden and Portugal, even though they are independent, are working in the same common market, EU. So outsourcing to Portugal is 'local' in the way that encourages commerce within the common market. It's analogous in a sense that a company from California would outsource something to Texas, same common market, different states.

If I get it right, you are against outsourcing in general? Or just from USA to another country? When you buy something, do you personally check the working conditions or how do you choose what to buy, even MiUSA stuff? Or just believe that your favorite brands are doing the right thing? As you said, there are sweatshops in USA, too.

I could be operating on dated wisdom and I fully acknowledge that things in teh EU might be different now.  Im not against outsourcing in general.  I am against a brand making a product in a cheaper market but charging a premium price.  To me thats dishonest to consumer and unfair to the workers.   Now, this might not be the discussion we are having right here right now but thats the foundation of my argument. Thats why when I buy a brand I consider where the brand is from and where they make their goods.  People were losing their shit when Nikon and Sony moved manufacturing to Thailand.  Historically they are Japanese brands.  Why move to Thailand?  What can Thailand do that Japan cant in this situation? I generally dont have an answer but I assume costs play a significant roll in the decision.  

I try to buy responsibly, as responsibly as I can in this day and age at least.  Sometimes that means avoiding brands that utilized factories in Bangladesh that burned to the ground.  But in general, no I dont research working conditions.  But in the denim, boot and accessories part of my life, I can afford to consider this and buy from smaller brands where the supply chain isnt as convoluted.  Pretty sure Tezomeya isnt exploiting too many people in their shirt manufacturing.  I cannot speak on the t-shirt blanks that are loop wheeled in Japan that they use but its certainly a cleaner supply chain than a Hanes or Fruit of the Loom Tshirt

 

EDIT  Let me address your past post also.  Portugal is just an example in this discussion.  I have products from Portugal and they are fine.  Not a single thing wrong.  Same with some stuff from China.  My issue is why would a brand from Sweden or from say Denmark make stuff there and not keep it local?  Generally, this is due to cost.  In this situation where Indigoferra is concerned that may or may not play a role in the country of manufacture.  I dont know.

 

I wouldnt buy a Tricker boot that wasnt made in England.  I wouldnt buy a Malbec wine that wasnt from Chile or Argentina.  At this point I wouldnt buy jeans made anywhere other than Japan.

Edited April 21, 2017 by garden gnomes in space

[mrman]

Just to make sure, I'm all for it that the labor force should get their fair share of the profits through decent wages. It's just that decent wages are not the same everywhere as living costs (food, housing etc) differ greatly. And as @JDelage mentioned costs are always a part of the equation. Companies are always balancing costs against the volume produced, otherwise it would be just a hobby. Many decide to lower the quality to cut the costs, but I doubt that is the case in this niche hobby of ours.

[Foxy2]

I'm pretty certain that the decission to produce in Portugal for a Swedish brand was not cost alone and I would argue the statement that producing in Portugal is always cheaper than producing in Sweden.

if you are a serious brand with a network of customers/shops to supply (however big or small) your main focus will automatically shift from cost to availability and timing. getting your raw materials to your factories, production leadtimes and getting your finished products to your customers/shops becomes your priority. your customers will penalize you for delivery delays and/or not order from you in the future. that's a hard truth here in Europe and the US - there might be a little bit of flexibility if you have a personal relationship with your customers/stores and a less "seasonal" product, but what's not in the store on time can't be sold - no business, no profit.

Edited April 21, 2017 by Foxy2

[mikkadehachikai]

21 hours ago, Cold Summer said:

Although another important part for me is that I've drifted away from wanting to look like a Japanese motorcyclist or anachronistic 1930s blue-collar worker. 

I keep reading this from you and I keep wondering which brands do you have in mind. Aside from Iron Heart, from the bigger ones from Tokyo, there is no other brand that fits this description in my mind. 

 

21 hours ago, anklspr said:

From 2010: http://www.styleforum.net/t/192335/kiya-babzani-of-self-edge-on-japanese-denim-internet-forums-and-more

Styleforum: Two-part question for you. You obviously work with some very small companies, and you do a of collaborations with them. How much do you think Self Edge has done for the growth of those companies by exposing them to the North American and European markets? Second, how vital was/is internet forums to this growth, both of the brands and of Self Edge? And I guess that brings up a third part--do you ever worry that internet hype will come back to bite you in the ass? 
Kiya: I wish the answer wasn't as sad as it sounds. But the reality of it is that these companies were hot in Asia for about 10 years, and that period ended in the mid to late 90s, so when we came along and said "we want to sell your products to the rest of the world," we didn't increase their overall production, we just prevented it from going down. I've said this before, but many of these companies (and not just the ones carried at Self Edge) are on the brink of closing up shop for good due to financial troubles. I know for a fact that if it weren't for the numbers we move, a couple of companies we deal with would no longer exist today, and that's also true for labels we don't carry which were picked up by other stores outside of Japan. I won't deny that message boards had a lot to do with the brand growth, because in the end having a thread dedicated to one brand and having consumers go back and forth about the brand is a great way to get the name and product out there, this isn't a secret.

I wonder which brands and what "facts" Kiya had in mind.

[Maynard Friedman]

So theoretically...

if a Swedish company stopped outsourcing manufacturing to Portugal which, (it has already been pointed out) is part of the same single market and has minimum wage regulations, plus a skilled labour force and the appropriate infrastructure and ability to meet demand 

and...

manufactured in Sweden, using (quite possibly) migrant labour, that may not have the same skills as the Portuguese workers (possibly migrants too) but are likely to receive higher wages, thereby increasing the overall price

then...

some people may be prepared to pay more money for a potentially inferior product that is made entirely in Sweden. Is that correct?

Alternatively, if the Swedish company moved to Portugal, branded itself as Portuguese and used local labour, people would be happy to buy the same product.

Edited April 21, 2017 by Maynard Friedman
Alternative scenario

[oomslokop]

6 hours ago, dudewuttheheck said:

My Clark's are made in Vietnam. I bought them several years ago before I really got into all this... denim stuff. The quality has actually been very impressive, but on principle I would not buy them again.

moral principle, or practical? aka that, if i got you right, they might be cutting corners in production and you prefer your stuff to be made to highest specs possible?

Edited April 21, 2017 by oomslokop
for clarity

[Niro]

I know Indigofera is just being used as an example, but I went to the indigofera event at Rivet & Hide last year, and it was clear from when Mats (creator of Indigofera) was talking about his products, that he is concerned by quality and that is his priority. 

The reasons for manufacturing in Portugal is explained in his interview here: https://www.denimhunters.com/how-to-start-a-denim-brand/

The quotes specifically related to this are:

Quote

Our idea was to produce in Europe. We don’t have borders, there are no internal taxation, and it’s relatively easy to travel.”

Portugal is still an affordable country to produce in. It is, of course, more expensive than if you go to Africa or Asia. But you go there and you see it’s Portuguese seamstresses who live in the village nearby. They are having minimum wages, they have proper ventilation, they have lunch breaks. It’s not a sweatshop.”

We go to our denim factory, we go to our knitting factory, we don’t wash a lot but we go to the laundry—everything is within one hour of driving.”

I do not own any Indigofera products. 

[Cold Summer]

1 hour ago, mikkadehachikai said:

I keep reading this from you and I keep wondering which brands do you have in mind. Aside from Iron Heart, from the bigger ones from Tokyo, there is no other brand that fits this description in my mind. 

Along with Iron Heart, Flat Head is very much motorcycle-style influenced, although that's probably not real obvious from the stuff that gets brought to the west, for the most part. Real McCoys and John Lofgren also have a lot of motorcycle style stuff. I saw that side of things a whole lot in Japan, it's very prominent in magazines like Lightning, Daytona Bros, and Clutch, and it's fairly prevalent from bloggers in the west like the Vintage Engineer Boots dude. I think this style looks great in most cases, but it's not really "me."

I assume that you were referring to that rather than the vintage blue collar style, of which probably two dozen examples could be named if I really sat down and though about it, including John Lofgren, Rising Sun, TCB, Ooe, Mister Freedom, Stevenson, Roy, Real McCoys, Sugar Cane, etc. That's not to say that these brands don't make awesome stuff, but it doesn't really interest or suit me and it's probably the prevailing style on most denim forums.

[dudewuttheheck]

2 hours ago, oomslokop said:

moral principle, or practical? aka that, if i got you right, they might be cutting corners in production and you prefer your stuff to be made to highest specs possible?

Yeah definitely not moral. I don't know enough about the situation to be morally opposed to it, especially considering that we do not know that conditions of most of the MiUSA and MiJ products that we own.

If they are indeed making such a financially influenced decision, I worry what the compromise could be and it means that money is further forward in their mind than making the absolute greatest product is. 

Yes, this is incredibly idealistic, but let's be honest- there are actually many brands that really do put making the best product before anything else. Most of these have quite a cost premium, but I think that it usually tends to be worth it. I could mention the specific brands, but that would bring a whole new argument.

[Maynard Friedman]

Clarks released a 65th anniversary Made in England desert boot in 2015. It was £250!

[ColonelAngus]

https://www.lividjeans.com/pages/our-story

“Why would you consider making jeans in Norway?” A father of a close friend of mine asked. “There just isn’t any economic upsides to doing so, and it will most definitely not be the succeeding factor of your business.” A statement that is perfectly accurate, because the Norwegian index of laboring cost per hour would presumably make the product way too expensive to be competitive. If it were to be distributed the traditional way, that is. But I believe that one gets inspired by going against the current. Especially when doing something others don’t believe to be possible. If it at any point suddenly should achieve success, it demands some kind of creditable admiration. Most importantly, the admiration we praise ourselves with. And I think, exactly the fact that we chose to produce in one of the most cost effective countries in the world, has been a key factor to our company’s success. That it was hard to do, only made us want to do it even more.

you guys probably know about Livid Jeans, who are another Scandinavian brand from Norway that happens to make their stuff in Norway. I only perused their site so don't know with 100% certainty that all of their stuff is made there, but this just shows that it can be done.

[JDelage]

It certainly is true that a small, private company can choose to forgo some profits and volumes in favor of a top quality commitment. Cost is still - always - an issue though, if they're a commercial, for profit concern.

As a reverse example, let's look at MrFreedom. They choose to have their stuff made in Japan by Sugar Cane. Is it a cost cutting move? Could they not find factories to make their stuff in the US? Think about it.

[SuperJackle]

Mister freedom (toyo) does manufacture in the US for certain things. 

[dudewuttheheck]

From what I understand, their standard patterns/regular items are made in the US (items from the Sportsman collection) and most of the limited items and items from the other collections are made by Toyo. I'm not sure why this is and I don't think this explanation is entirely accurate, but it does give a general idea of what they do. 

 

In this light, I do not think that using Toyo is a cost-cutting move.