W. H. Ranch Dungarees

[JDelage]

50 minutes ago, Maynard Friedman said:

@JDelage - I totally disagree with you. If there was no delay, there would be no primary problem.

Doh... Yes, but the delay is a very hard problem to solve. "Just be better at estimating time to completion" is not a solution; it's wishful thinking. The smart way to deal with this is to *take the problem into account*. Knowing some delay *will* occur, in a non predictable manner, how can one minimize the negative consequences?

[Maynard Friedman]

The delay is actually an easy problem to solve. He should be able to plan to understand the relationship between demand (the list) and supply (his ability to make the jeans according to that list). This is a basic for his business. Then he should communicate to those customers on the list an accurate delivery/waiting time. He should stop fast-track orders and add anyone else to the list in order if receipt and then communicate an accurate delivery time, etc, etc. This is simple. 
I agree that 50% up front, 50% on completion is a good idea but not completely necessary with a shorter/manageable/realistic waiting time.

[JDelage]

No. It's easy to predict over 3-5 orders, but not beyond that. There are too many variables. This is not a standardized business. 

[Maynard Friedman]

What are the complex variables? He’s making jeans! Too many options? Simple, reduce them to a manageable level. It’s all within his control. He knows how many pairs he can make on average per day/week/month.

Too many orders? Simple, don’t take on any more. What he shouldn’t do is introduce price discrimination for those who want them quicker and allow them to jump the queue - #DollarDenimPrivilege

You cannot run a business without planning, it will be doomed to failure.

[ShootThePier]

3 hours ago, Maynard Friedman said:

If it is so important then he should have realised about 2-3 years ago that he is letting his customers down badly. He should have stopped taking fast-track orders and dealt with his existing customers in the correct sequence. Anyone new should join the end of the queue. This is why people think of him as a greedy charlatan who couldn’t give a toss.

I agree the business model and businessman do not measure up to maker and the product. “One man, one jeans” works great. “One man, every hat in the business” does not.

[ShootThePier]

2 hours ago, Broark said:

I honestly don’t see any way of defending what he does. I think he got in over his head with the volume and instead of being honest about it and clearing out the backlog he doubled down and figured out a way to capitalize on it, all the while marketing it for Instagram likes while he laughs all the way to the bank. At the same time he talks shit about people who criticize him for calling him out. More power to him, but I find it disingenuous and I would never even consider buying anything he is behind just out of principle. There are many other small manufacturers that have the same business model he does (usually making a better product, in my opinion) without being sleazy about it. 

No disrespect, but how can you say better product?

Even if you own both, what is better or best for you, may not be for me. Add Maynard, ec, and JD and we may end up with five different bests.

My wife’s favorite pair of my jeans is the WHR. She asked me to purchase a back up pair. But by then, Ryan no longer had any of that denim. “Wife’s favorite” goes a long way in any husband’s book!

[Maynard Friedman]

What is best is irrelevant. His product is what it is and clearly there are enough people who want to buy it. It’s how he treats those customers that is the issue here.

[ShootThePier]

3 hours ago, JDelage said:

The problem is not the delay. The problems are (1) lack of communication on said delay, (2) pre-payment, (3) price changes over time, which means that new orders are a lot more profitable to the maker than older orders.

This is a problem that is found in all manners of craft. The only way I have seen it work is like this: the craftsperson / artist takes names, and maybe a small amount ($100) to hold a spot. When the customer's name comes up, the maker finalizes details & pricing. Customer pays 1/2, waits a couple weeks, and pays the other 1/2 before item is shipped.

JD, I agree there has to be a better way, a more transparent way.

On one hand you have to create demand by getting product in the market to build excitement.

On the other hand you have to maintain excitement. By taking more orders? Insta?

Now here is the problem with being “one man, one pair of jeans”. In our economy growth is the measure of success. But “one man” is extremely limiting to begin with. I guess he could farm out processes, but then we’d be really, really pissed!

If you choose to come from the angle that Ryan is a criminal or evil, there is plenty of evidence to back you up, EXCEPT, if he were just in this for the money, the product would suck, or never be delivered.

If you choose to come from the angle that Ryan is NOT a monster. It is easy to see the mistakes, and how easy they were to make. Our own Artisan challenge must have tripled his requests. If he takes too long to reply, he gets a bad rep. If he turns down orders, he gets a bad rep. If he doesn’t take a substantial deposit, how can he take an order, materials must be allocated at time of order.

The first problem is “one man”, but that is also what makes his product special.

The second and biggest problem was lack of transparency when inquiries are made. Then again how many of us would wait 2-3 years for any jeans? Maybe he even believed he could speed up his delivery by cutting back on other obligations.

I don’t know if any of what I’m saying pertains to Ryan and WHR. I’m just speculating, because if he really wanted to rip me off, he would have never sent a thing.

Edited February 4, 2020 by ShootThePier

[ShootThePier]

1 hour ago, Maynard Friedman said:

He should stop fast-track orders and add anyone else to the list in order if receipt and then communicate an accurate delivery time,

You’re right, offering fast tracking was a huge mistake, and slap in the face to existing orders.

Edited February 4, 2020 by ShootThePier

[Muck Dynasty]

Should be W.H. Locomotive

[shredwin_206]

12 hours ago, edmond said:

Dont trust koreans i tell you

Why you bringin my race into this?? 

[chambo2008]

Think he means 

Temple of jawns or TOJ, big scam few years ago 

Edited February 5, 2020 by chambo2008

[Broark]

19 hours ago, ShootThePier said:

No disrespect, but how can you say better product?

No disrespect taken, I guess I shouldn't claim to know that it's a better product since I've never handled it.
What Maynard said is true, it's not even about quality or being the best, it's all the bullshit behind it that to me tarnishes the product.
If he had done something to rectify the situation a long while back I'd consider buying some of his jeans because I am sure they are nice.
But at this point I don't see that happening anytime soon.

[mpukas]

Having had a pair of his jeans, I can say that his craftsmanship and attention to detail is top notch. Better than any other maker, whether it's a single (or 2-) person shop, or a shop that a brand contracts with, is totally debatable. Fans of him will think he's unmatched. Detractors will have a tainted view. It is within his power to make amends by stopping new orders, clearing out his back log, and restructuring his business model. He's a talented and passionate guy and it would be great to see him in better light. His actions in the past couple of years have been totally unethical and just leave a bad impression. 

I've mixed feelings buying, and then selling, the pair I had. On one hand, I'd like to still have them just for my collection because they were that nice. I also somehow wish I never bought them because they were expensive and I didn't like the cut, and I took a loss when I sold them. And I somehow don't want to be associated with all of his current BS. If this story had blown up the way it has around the time I bought my pair, I wouldn't have. It was at the height of hype. 

[428CJ]

For me, it's really all about the fact that he seems to just dick around on Instagram all day. It's pure vanity and self aggrandizement. And I realize after seeing his IG for a while that the dude is a lamebrain middle American douchebag with all his Top Gun pro military crap, while he's never actually served, and is really just a borderline-homo-hipster with absolutely horrible taste in pop culture. Not a good look for someone running a supposed high-end business.

I wasn't upset with the guy at all until I saw his Instagram. His e-mails were prompt and friendly through the process, and I expected to wait a couple years.

But seeing the IG, and hearing that it would probably be more like 5 years or more, instead of 1 or 2...that's what got me annoyed.

FWIW, just yesterday on IG, he posted this:

"what I can tell you is on a good week, I can get three pairs done, or two and a jacket. I need to update the website to reflect this, but I am no longer taking standard queue orders. I want that stack down to nothing eventually with the hope of starting fresh at some point down the road. I will take a few rush orders a month, but those are tough. I have to work 12 hrs a day to tackle those AND keep the standard orders moving because I don't let rush orders push back standard queue. Basically, an 8 hour day and then anything I can manage after that, but eventually you just hit a wall sewing. It's physically and mentally tasking and starts to take it's tole on the jeans, also not good. That's why I only take a few rush orders a month if that makes sense."

Sounds like he's at least trying to say the things that he probably knows people want to hear...so he must fear that a massive storm of shit is heading his way. Is he telling the truth? Maybe, maybe not. Something big tells me the dude doesn't put in 8 hour days five days a week. I highly, highly doubt that. He seems like he just dicks off with his fake cowboy buddies up on Brokeback Mountain, and comes up with new ways to get fresh money coming in (including making jeans for himself, lightly wearing them, and then selling them for as-new prices as "used" jeans, so people waiting in the queue don't get upset). If he's making, say, two pairs of jeans a day, working five days a week, and he has people waiting five years, that means he's got at least 2,500 orders in the queue. He might be slammed, but I doubt there are 2,500 people in the world who would buy $400 jeans under this model. I think it's pretty obvious the dude is a lazy fuckoff who got a huge influx of money, and just blew it on himself rather than buckling down and going to work every day like normal people have to do. Now he's trying to keep the ship afloat via IG hawking.

Edited February 5, 2020 by 428CJ

[Broark]

Saw that Instagram post yesterday and couldn’t believe it. I doubt this guy puts in that much work given how much time he dedicates to promoting himself. And after hearing how many jeans Roy can make in a little over a month working 14 hour days I doubt there’s that much of a backlog. I just don’t buy any of his excuses.

[Cold Summer]

Just read this whole thread, wasn't familiar with this whole saga. I don't get why you'd bother with this guy when Ben Viapiana will make whatever you want for far less, and without the looney wait time.

To say nothing of the other great small makers out there like Ooe, Roy, and so on.

[ShootThePier]

It sounds like he has gone from loving his craft, to being uncomfortable running a business.

The simple answer is to hire somebody to run the business, and stay in the shop, and get back to your passion. Charge more to pay for the administrative assistant.

 

[andrewrose]

Another possible part of the puzzle- if you’ve paid already, and not gotten the goods promised on the time frame promised, you really have no recourse. It’s civil, not criminal. You’d have to take him to court to recoup anything. If you’re out of state from him, that could be difficult if not impossible to do and maybe cost more to do than you paid In the first place. Even in state, the cost probably exceeds that of the price originally paid.

[mlwdp]

On 1/4/2020 at 5:17 AM, Double 0 Soul said:

I'm surprised nobody has baseball batted this cnut

Because it’s a felony in the USA.  

[unders]

Not if they don’t catch you it ain’t
 

edit: jk
 

Edited February 5, 2020 by unders

[Double 0 Soul]

^^ So is fraud but...y'know, folks still do it

[JDelage]

What happens to people who do that (take advance payment and have a huge lead time) is that they end up spending the money they got long before they actually make the product. At first it's a small slip, and they tell themselves they'll over correct. They can manage that for a while, but eventually it becomes the equivalent of eating your seed corn (if we're nice) or pulling a Bernie Madoff (if we're not). In addition to this, the price change with the cost of materials and the demand for the product, so the more recent orders are at a higher price than the older ones. The temptation becomes unresistable to complete recent orders before older ones. This is effectively what those "rush orders" are.

I have seen this happen several times in the custom knife world. It's inherent to the challenges of being a sole craftsperson. I have never seen it happen in a way that suggested the person was defrauding their customers on purpose. The best solution to this problem is to not finalize pricing and not take full price upfront.

[Double 0 Soul]

If you take all of the ridiculouly false HDR filters off his marketing images they just look like a normal, everyday pair of jeans.,,

[julian-wolf]

Well isn't that sort of the point of reproductions?

Not meaning to take his side here, 'cause the guy does seem like a real asshole, but your Junky '46s look an awful lot like a normal, everyday pair of jeans, too…

[beautiful_FrEaK]

On 8/21/2019 at 11:33 PM, 428CJ said:

He's too busy pretending he's a gay model

 

On 1/4/2020 at 8:09 AM, 428CJ said:

and posing for gay photo shoots with his hipster buddies.

 

14 hours ago, 428CJ said:

and is really just a borderline-homo-hipster

 

14 hours ago, 428CJ said:

fake cowboy buddies up on Brokeback Mountain

 

I really don't understand what (potential) sexuality has to do with him not delivering the goods but it surely seems to hit a raw nerve for you

 

Besides that, I think everything about his business model has already been said.

Edited February 6, 2020 by beautiful_FrEaK

[Double 0 Soul]

Well said Tilmann

Tis indeed Julian, i want them to look like a everyday pair of jeans, but my point is people are being sold dreams/false hope via High Dynamic Range photography.

You think you're buying this...Wow! they look almost other-wordly

but what you actually get is this...a normal looking pair of jeans

Props to eastwest here for showing whats real rather than using filtered images

[Maynard Friedman]

They are certainly slimming, I think Tilmann is secretly wearing them, disguised as Resolutes!

[shredwin_206]

To be honest I will say the reason I was drawn to his jeans is because I prefer a very high rise in my jeans. 
His 1912 high Ryder to this day is my favorite pair of jeans I’ve ever owned. 
But the wait time of 4-6 years now is a no go

[Cold Summer]

I hate that HDR filter nonsense. That Cory whatshisface guy from Instagram who takes all the overhead flat lay shots and weird jumping photos is especially guilty of it.

I do think it's very weird that there are so few high-rise options from boutique denim makers. Most "high rises" in my size are about 1" short (in the front) of being an actual high rise.

My butt is not very big so back rise is fine at 15-15.5" or so, but I'd love to have a front rise of about 12" on all my jeans. It's usually about 10.75".