Levi's Vintage Clothing

[Maynard Friedman]

Here’s another LVC 501 guide Pedro, courtesy of the legendary @Paul T

[kicks79]

7 hours ago, VivaMarlon said:

Any idea why that may be? Are 47 and 54 the most sold models?

The theme of SS19 is the 1950s hence why those two models. 

[VivaMarlon]

Maybe I'm overlooking something, but where do you guys find all of this information?

[cjfergs]

10 minutes ago, VivaMarlon said:

Maybe I'm overlooking something, but where do you guys find all of this information?

It’s all in the tubes...and irl denim spies.

[The Clerk]

Quick noob question with regards to LVC sizing. Does anyone know if the 55s on the levi europe site are over sized compared with other models? I am have had 32 waist in 47s, 33s and 01s but was a 30 waist in the 17s. So go for a 32 0r 30 in the 55s?

 

[Maynard Friedman]

Maybe try a 31? I think Levi’s has a free returns/exchange policy so it shouldn’t be a problem if they don’t fit.

[The Clerk]

Yeah, does that apply post soak?  Good idea though Maynard 

 

 

[Pedro]

Edited:

This has probably been discussed already.

Cone Mills, as a business entity owned by ITG and based in NC, USA, continues to exist and manufacture denim.

The closure of the White Oak Plant marks the end of US production of selvedge denim; however, Cone continues to operate Mills in Yecapixtla, Mexico & Jiaxing, China. 

Assuming Levis brand will continue their LVC line, will they continue to source Cone Mills-Mexico or Cone Mills-China as its supplier? Does anyone know?

-pedro

https://www.conedenim.com/mills/

Edited November 23, 2018 by Pedro

[Paul T]

Is the Cone overseas "very likely to continue to produce selvage" your own speculation? Becuase Cone overseas has entirely different looms. I've heard no reports the shuttle looms are going to another operation, and it would be very expensive to do, so as noted before, it's most likely they'll source from Kaihara, who produce most of the current Sanforized denim, and previously supplied Levi's Japan. It's complicated, though... the yarns for LVC were produced from another Cone operation I think, so it's even possible they could send the yarns to Kaihara and we'd see very little difference in the resulting fabric.

I was told by someone now high-up at Levi's that Kaihara have had a back-up range of fabrics ready to go for at least a decade... because there's been a worry that Cone would collapse for  20 years now.

Edited November 23, 2018 by Paul T

[Maynard Friedman]

Good points Paul, but would it really be prohibitively expensive to extend the Mexican Cone plant, install a springy wood floor and transport the old looms there on lorries from the White Oak plant? Especially when considering the savings they have made and revenue generated from closing it down/selling it off? I don’t know and may be way off the mark but I’m simply speculating. I also assume they would need some prior agreement or commitment from LVC to continue to use denim supplied from Cone before considering anything like this.

Edited November 23, 2018 by Maynard Friedman

[lance]

I have a pair of NWT 47s tagged 36 x 38 I've had for a number of years. The denim is beautiful, deep twill with an interesting nep and deep indigo color. The button is numbered 4170. The tag states that the denim is 10 oz but it feels heavier, possibly because of the deep twill and the fact that they are raw. The inseam length is unusual at 38" (37" actual). Made in the USA of USA cotton. Is it likely that these were made of Cone Mills denim at the White Oak plant?

            

          

 

[Paul T]

5 minutes ago, lance said:

I have a pair of NWT 47s tagged 36 x 38 I've had for a number of years. The denim is beautiful, deep twill with an interesting nep and deep indigo color. The button is numbered 4170. The tag states that the denim is 10 oz but it feels heavier, possibly because of the deep twill and the fact that they are raw. The inseam length is unusual at 38" (37" actual). Made in the USA of USA cotton. Is it likely that these were made of Cone Mills denim at the White Oak plant?

           

          

 

Yup, those will be Cone.

1 hour ago, Maynard Friedman said:

Good points Paul, but would it really be prohibitively expensive to extend the Mexican Cone plant, install a springy wood floor and transport the old looms there on lorries from the White Oak plant? Especially when considering the savings they have made and revenue generated from closing it down/selling it off? I don’t know and may be way off the mark but I’m simply speculating. I also assume they would need some prior agreement or commitment from LVC to continue to use denim supplied from Cone before considering anything like this.

I think Cone is desperately short of money, so I think it's unlikely, and I did hear they were simply selling off the looms. It wouldn't make economic sense to set them up only to supply Levi's, and I think the demand from other sources would plummet, the moment you lose that made-in-USA cachet. I do hope I'm wrong, though.

[lance]

Thanks, Paul

[SmokeStackLightning]

The 1966 have arrived. Indeed they are as the tags claim "Made in the U.S from Cone Denim"

Another part of the tag says "Made with Cone Denim, North Carolina", they are 2017.

Inner tag states made in the U.S with imported materials. Which I am assuming is hardware etc. 

[Pedro]

4 hours ago, Paul T said:

Yup, those will be Cone.

I think Cone is desperately short of money, so I think it's unlikely, and I did hear they were simply selling off the looms. It wouldn't make economic sense to set them up only to supply Levi's, and I think the demand from other sources would plummet, the moment you lose that made-in-USA cachet. I do hope I'm wrong, though.

All personal speculation below:

If Cone is sending the looms to the auction block then I wonder who will be highest bidder? 

A Japanese buyer?

One would think the historical significance & sentimental value of those looms could still be commercialized?

-pedro

Edited November 23, 2018 by Pedro

[Pedro]

16 hours ago, Paul T said:

Is the Cone overseas "very likely to continue to produce selvage" your own speculation? Becuase Cone overseas has entirely different looms. I've heard no reports the shuttle looms are going to another operation, and it would be very expensive to do, so as noted before, it's most likely they'll source from Kaihara, who produce most of the current Sanforized denim, and previously supplied Levi's Japan. It's complicated, though... the yarns for LVC were produced from another Cone operation I think, so it's even possible they could send the yarns to Kaihara and we'd see very little difference in the resulting fabric.

I was told by someone now high-up at Levi's that Kaihara have had a back-up range of fabrics ready to go for at least a decade... because there's been a worry that Cone would collapse for  20 years now.

@Paul T I regret I did not provide links. I had read maybe 8-10 articles from when the news broke of the White Oak Plant being shuttered, both financial publications and denim fan blogs and found that in one of ‘em. 

After reading your post about the yarns and Kaihara, I realize nothing I read had their finger on the pulse like you do so I will edit my post to avoid continuing speculation/rumor.

One personal question below: Would placing the looms into 40’ containers really be all that expensive? I watched so many defunct rust-belt factories and smelters be disassembled and containerized and shipped to China in the 90’s “Clinton-era” that it seems pretty common practice. I don’t know how many Draper X-3 looms they had but the sale could be split between interested buyers.

-pedro

Edited November 24, 2018 by Pedro

[cjfergs]

5 hours ago, lance said:

I have a pair of NWT 47s tagged 36 x 38 I've had for a number of years. The denim is beautiful, deep twill with an interesting nep and deep indigo color. The button is numbered 4170. The tag states that the denim is 10 oz but it feels heavier, possibly because of the deep twill and the fact that they are raw. The inseam length is unusual at 38" (37" actual). Made in the USA of USA cotton. Is it likely that these were made of Cone Mills denim at the White Oak plant?

            

          

 

What year are those, Lance -2009?

[lance]

Hey cjfergs, I do not recall how long ago I bought the jeans but here is a pic of the inside tag. Looks like you are correct, good call. You can verify by the tag. Man, how time flies!

[EdwardBear]

I've heard from a very good source that LVC have a whole load of Cone White Oak NOS denim they are saving for some very limited editions in the coming years, and that the rumours of them having to get Kaihara to source their denim is misplaced...

[428CJ]

Welp, the end of the year budget is significantly smaller this year, so I have limited myself to just one item during the first round of the 40 percent off sale: a Rigid Type I jacket in XL.

It was that or  the LVC Type II. I already have the Sugar Cane copy of the type II, and I already have an oversized EU LVC blanket lined Rigid Type I. In the end, I decided that the unlined Type I was a "necessary" addition to my collection more so than a "proper" Levi's Type II. The Sugar Cane type II copy is such an outstanding jacket that the LVC Type II would have been pretty redundant. As for the blanket lined Rigid LVC Type I that I already have, I purposefully sized it so that I am swimming in it, and it is also simply too warm for many occasions. Therefore the unlined, more regular sized Type I will be a much more welcomed addition.

Can't wait to get the thing!

[Paul T]

9 hours ago, Pedro said:

All personal speculation below:

If Cone is sending the looms to the auction block then I wonder who will be highest bidder? 

A Japanese buyer?

One would think the historical significance & sentimental value of those looms could still be commercialized?

-pedro

Pedro, you could be right. All the chat I had with ex employees was a year ago, maybe the situation has changed since then. I really wish it has. But I did get emails a few months ago from someone who seems to have bought some looms and in turn wants to sell them on, and was looking for buyers.

If i get time, once my imminent deadlines are over, maybe I'll try and a Cone,  A Year On follow-up.

[Pedro]

3 hours ago, 428CJ said:

As for the blanket lined Rigid LVC Type I that I already have, I purposefully sized it so that I am swimming in it...

Any chance of photos?

Any retailers still carrying that in the EU in XL?

I like sizing them up to XL in order to get the shoulder freedom when I use them in the field.

I recently saw a very nice quality denim type I with Pendleton wool lining but the corduroy is on the wrong side of the collar. It is sewn so that it faces away from the neck when the collar is up and the entire point of the corduroy was to be against the skin. The softness kept the skin from chafing, ofcourse, and even when frozen, was much “kinder” then frozen denim.

edit: Maybe someone can refresh my memory if Levis made a corduroy collar blanket lined? I think ours are all Lee & Pennys.

-pedro

Edited November 24, 2018 by Pedro

[428CJ]

1 hour ago, Pedro said:

Any chance of photos?

Any retailers still carrying that in the EU in XL?

I like sizing them up to XL in order to get the shoulder freedom when I use them in the field.

I recently saw a very nice quality denim type I with Pendleton wool lining but the corduroy is on the wrong side of the collar. It is sewn so that it faces away from the neck when the collar is up and the entire point of the corduroy was to be against the skin. The softness kept the skin from chafing, ofcourse, and even when frozen, was much “kinder” then frozen denim.

edit: Maybe someone can refresh my memory if Levis made a corduroy collar blanket lined? I think ours are all Lee & Pennys.

-pedro

Actually, when I pulled the jacket out to snap a few pix, I saw that it is actually a size L, not an XL. It just runs so oversized that I had it in my mind as an XL. It has a 51" chest and 22" shoulders – huge for a size L. It is supposed to shrink 5 percent, though. I usually wear it over an undershirt, a button-up shirt, and sometimes a vest too. Very cozy jacket. I love oversized type I's and II's (these cuts work better and look better oversized IMO). I was very happy to find a type I or II so huge.

It is almost certainly a style with discontinued specs. It is not a vintage accurate piece, but it is L.V.C. (I have all the original tags and flasher). It has a yellow selvedge I.D. (weird, but cool looking IMO), and a modern style wool-poly blend for the blanket lining. The interior tag might not actually be leather. I do have the original tags and flasher somewhere, but I can't dig them up at the moment. I bought it N.O.S. from an independent party in England, via E-Bay. Made in Turkey for the EU market.

[Pedro]

White Oaks even sold the wooden shuttles from their Draper X-3 looms at $50/each when they ripped the heart out of their selvage division.

This may be an indication of how broke they were to not have sold them complete with the X-3 looms OR it just shows the heartless corporate mindset. 

I can only hope the soon-to-be jobless employees who clocked in  5 days a week for decades to keep those X-3s operating stole as much as they could smuggle past security in those final weeks.

https://www.heddels.com/2017/11/96306/

[cjfergs]

10 hours ago, lance said:

Hey cjfergs, I do not recall how long ago I bought the jeans but here is a pic of the inside tag. Looks like you are correct, good call. You can verify by the tag. Man, how time flies!

They just looked exactly like mine, which was my second LVC raw, and though the   denim of that model is no favorite of the board, it’s one of my personal favorite pairs.  

Have been looking for another in 36w, so if you’re looking to turn them around, let me know!

 

[Pedro]

3 hours ago, cjfergs said:

They just looked exactly like mine, which was my second LVC raw, and though the   denim of that model is no favorite of the board, it’s one of my personal favorite pairs. 

 

OK, I don’t know enough about what makes a “popular” denim. Is it a measurable quality that indicates good weave or dye? 

When I look at those photos, nothing jumps out at me as problematic. Can someone tell me which details I should be looking at?

thanks

Edited November 24, 2018 by Pedro

[Paul T]

22 minutes ago, Pedro said:

OK, I don’t know enough about what makes a “popular” denim. Is it a measurable quality that indicates good weave or dye? 

When I look at those photos, nothing jumps out at me as problematic. Can someone tell me which details I should be looking at?

thanks

I'm probably one of the key people (or maybe just the oldest) who doesn't like the 47 denim as much as the 55. But it's only really a subtle difference and of course all the denims vary from year to year, due to variations in the cotton crop etc etc etc.

On my pairs, the white of the 47 weft seems to peek through more than on, say, the 55. The warp yanrns on the 55 seem thicker. Those on the 47 are thinner, and have more slubbing. The fading on the 55 looks smoother, but has more mid-tones.

It probably won't come across in pix, especially as my hands seem to have been shaking. (Maynard will hopefully be along with an appropriate, or even inappropriate, joke soon).

Here's the pair together, 55 on the left, 47 on the right. Obvioulsy the 55 has been washed a few more times, but you can see it looks a little smoother.
 

 

Now, this is the 55. See how it looks fairly smooth and even?
 

 

In comparison, on the 47, you can see lots more white dots, with the weft showing through. Plus a few fine vertical slub lines. The diagonal twill line seems less prominent.

In addition, when they're at the same kind of stage, the 55 seems to have more mid tones, it fades to a lighter blue, whereas the 47 seems to fade just to white.

 

 

They look quite different a way away, as well as close up. I will try and find an older shot I took to compare the shape of each.

But as you can see, the difference is pretty subtle, they have an overall similar look which is quite different to Japanese denim - apart from SDA, which to me has a very similar look indeed.

Ah yes, here's the 47 vs the 55 shot. These are probably at a couple of washes each. Note how the faded bits of the 47 go white... those of the 55 go pale blue and white.

Edited November 24, 2018 by Paul T

[Pedro]

@Paul T Very helpful details. I like my ‘55s the most but now its time to break out the magnifying glass. 

“Variations in the cotton crop”?

Man I love this place.

Thanks

Edited November 24, 2018 by Pedro

[erk]

I went ahead and went for a new pair of LVC. First new pair of LVC since I discovered TCB and got rid of all my collection that didn’t fit any more. 

I had wanted to try the ‘66 for the first time but those back pockets are just so big. So I went with what I know I like - 1955 

Edited November 24, 2018 by erk

[cjfergs]

 

Just got my latest White Oak stockpiler from Cultizm, a ‘55 rigid, which brings me full circle.   My first LVCs were a rinsed ‘55 from 2005 that the one knowledgeable salesman at the SF flagship dug out from a sale pile (there was literally no other selvage in store at that time, hard as that is to believe).  They were, and are still, a marvel.  A 501, but with beautiful, subtle differences that set it it apart.

That put me down the rabbit hole and I have since spent way too much time and money on LVC and denim.

Have to say though, the LVCs this year and last resemble each other more than their analogues from previous years.  The 2019 55s have totally different details, even basic selvedge line and thread color, from the 2005 version.

The 2009 47s, which are still my fave (Paul T’s admonishment of the denim notwithstanding), look nothing like the 2018’s.  Pockets have doubled in size and threads again are totally different colors.

TBH, in raw form, the current slate of 20th century rigid models look very similar to each other -from rivets, thread color, pocket size, patches, to even the basic cast of the denim- aside from the macro cut variations and major defining details of the those model years.  It’s a far cry from years past, for certain.  The MiUSA 501 is basically an amalgam of all recent decades but with raised belt loops and better stitching. 

I’ll miss the old bird after they run out of Cone, but LVC needs to add some value to their premier value-added denim line before I would buy again...

That said, I also don’t need to!

Thanks to the board for the heads up on the 40% off sale.  I hadn’t checked my email yet, and was able to get ‘back-ups’ for the last few pairs I already own, including the 1890, ‘37, and ‘47.   I’m swimming in denim right now and it’s no stretch to say I probably have enough for the next 20 years!

Interested to hear others’ thoughts on year-to year variations.  In the past, I had mostly sampled one new model or so a year, so maybe it’s always been the case that LVCs in a particular collection share similar characteristics.

Getting my shipment on Mon, so will post photos and comparisons then...

Edited November 25, 2018 by cjfergs