Denim - Fiscal Sense Thread

[SuperJackle]

^Not quite. Mister Freedom is a Toyo brand. And Toyo doesn't exclusively manufacture in Japan. They also utilize USA and I believe Chinese sew houses as well. This includes Sugar Cane items as well. 

Edit: I should mention Toyo isn't utilizing factories outside of Japan for Mister Freedom unless the collection and direction dictates. 

Edited April 21, 2017 by SuperJackle

[mrman]

15 minutes ago, ColonelAngus said:

https://www.lividjeans.com/pages/our-story

 

 

you guys probably know about Livid Jeans, who are another Scandinavian brand from Norway that happens to make their stuff in Norway. I only perused their site so don't know with 100% certainty that all of their stuff is made there, but this just shows that it can be done.

Maybe you should get your facts straight. Yes, Norway, Sweden and Portugal are in Europe but only the latter two are within EU common market. It would not be smart to outsource anything behind a customs border, so a norwegian company is better off producing their stuff in Norway. For a swedish company they have more sound choices.

[Maynard Friedman]

I believe Norway is a member of EFTA and has access to the EU internal market with free movement of goods, capital, services and people i.e. no customs barriers, so in effect, no different to Sweden as far as outsourcing to Portugal or other EU members is concerned.

[mrman]

Of the four EFTA countries three, Norway included, are part of EEA. But EEA is not a customs union.

[Maynard Friedman]

Perhaps so, but that EFTA membership (plus a hefty fee to the EU) gives Norway access to the EU internal market with no customs fees as I previously mentioned, so it is in the same position as Sweden in the context we are referring to.

Unless I'm mistaken of course.

Edited April 21, 2017 by Maynard Friedman

[Niro]

Remember, if Livid jeans manufactured in Portugal (for example), they would have to follow EU regulations and such. Maybe it's easier for them to just run all operations in Norway

[dau]

But most of Livid stuff is made in Portugal..

Edited April 21, 2017 by dau

[Niro]

Well, there you go lol.

 

Edited April 21, 2017 by Niro

[Foxy2]

Livid Jeans have begun producing their denim locally (and partially in their sample shop) - their shirts are produced in Portugal. they have full access to the single market - in that regard they are very similar to brands like Indigofera.

There are some aspects that explain why cerrtain brands do their denim in-house or local while doing their shirts or knits outsourced:
- denim production is highly standardized and automated (with the right machinery it is relatively easy to set-up a workshop and to produce them efficiently)
- often these brands start with building sample shops for denim and take on small scale production as part of their set-up from the get-go
- most countries still have a small-scale surving industry of Uniform, (real) workwear and sometimes even Denim factories to do small production runs

Producing shirts and, especially, knits is entirely different in regards to machinery, skills and desired infrastructure. often, you get better quality raw materials and finished products if you pool these in certain hubs like Portugal. i wouldn't be surprised if some brands are actually using the same factories in these hubs.

I believe Mr. Freedom and Toyo are not exactly an example of your normal Designer - Brand set-up...
It seems more like a mutual partnership that enables MF to utilize Toyo's finances, research and fabrics (but not exclusively) along with their production capabilities and network. MF will have a strong input in sourcing and production questions in addition to the obvious design input. Both are getting a unique product out of this.
one reason this seem to work could also be the fact that MF buys a good part of the production for their own shop...

Edited April 21, 2017 by Foxy2

[garden gnomes in space]

6 hours ago, Maynard Friedman said:

So theoretically...

if a Swedish company stopped outsourcing manufacturing to Portugal which, (it has already been pointed out) is part of the same single market and has minimum wage regulations, plus a skilled labour force and the appropriate infrastructure and ability to meet demand 

and...

manufactured in Sweden, using (quite possibly) migrant labour, that may not have the same skills as the Portuguese workers (possibly migrants too) but are likely to receive higher wages, thereby increasing the overall price

then...

some people may be prepared to pay more money for a potentially inferior product that is made entirely in Sweden. Is that correct?

Alternatively, if the Swedish company moved to Portugal, branded itself as Portuguese and used local labour, people would be happy to buy the same product.

the point I was trying to make was that I personally prefer that a brand keep things as local as possible.    If this is not possible, or compromises their standards then they need to do what they need to do.  Thats it, really.  

 

 

Edit** and let me add that I had no idea things were as globalized as they seem to be in the EU.  I was ignorant and remain ignorant to certain facts, one such being that Portugal is a hub for textiles and that everything from skilled labor to infrastructure exists there.  So thats on me, apologies for being ignorant.  

Edited April 21, 2017 by garden gnomes in space

[mikkadehachikai]

5 hours ago, Cold Summer said:

Along with Iron Heart, Flat Head is very much motorcycle-style influenced, although that's probably not real obvious from the stuff that gets brought to the west, for the most part. Real McCoys and John Lofgren also have a lot of motorcycle style stuff. I saw that side of things a whole lot in Japan, it's very prominent in magazines like Lightning, Daytona Bros, and Clutch, and it's fairly prevalent from bloggers in the west like the Vintage Engineer Boots dude. I think this style looks great in most cases, but it's not really "me."

I assume that you were referring to that rather than the vintage blue collar style, of which probably two dozen examples could be named if I really sat down and though about it, including John Lofgren, Rising Sun, TCB, Ooe, Mister Freedom, Stevenson, Roy, Real McCoys, Sugar Cane, etc. That's not to say that these brands don't make awesome stuff, but it doesn't really interest or suit me and it's probably the prevailing style on most denim forums.

still cannot understand whether you have really ever seen Japanese motorcyclists, not those in the magazines. So, if I were to be into wearing leather jackets around the city which style and Japanese brand won't me look like a Japanese motorcyclists?

[Maynard Friedman]

Cheers Gnomes, I suppose the unique geography and political/economic set-up in Europe allows manufacturing to remain 'localised' in a broad sense (in this context, anyway) without committing to true globalisation, although its effects may still be felt in the countries that may be 'losing out'. In some respects, the member states are similar to your own states I suppose, so outsourcing to Portugal from Sweden isn't entirely dissimilar to a California-based company manufacturing its products in Texas, for example.

I just hope the UK can still find a good, mutually acceptable deal with the EU post-Brexit.

 

[Cucoo]

1 hour ago, mikkadehachikai said:

still cannot understand whether you have really ever seen Japanese motorcyclists, not those in the magazines. So, if I were to be into wearing leather jackets around the city which style and Japanese brand won't me look like a Japanese motorcyclists?

Maybe if you substitute "greaser" for "motorcyclist" in this case? It seems to make more sense then

[dudewuttheheck]

4 minutes ago, Cucoo said:

Maybe if you substitute "greaser" for "motorcyclist" in this case? It seems to make more sense then

I'm with you on this. I know The Flat Head has motorcycle influences, but they always felt more 50s to me. Ive seen pictures of Kobayashi-San's cafe and cars and it all screens 50s to me. Hell, he even has made bowling shirts. He may as well have his own sitcom.

[Niro]

I personally hope that Brexit will be reversed. It is a long shot, but I have to hope.

Not for my denim addiction, as I am a snob, and pretty much exclusively buy 'made in japan' denim

[mrman]

12 hours ago, Maynard Friedman said:

In some respects, the member states are similar to your own states I suppose, so outsourcing to Portugal from Sweden isn't entirely dissimilar to a California-based company manufacturing its products in Texas, for example.

I just hope the UK can still find a good, mutually acceptable deal with the EU post-Brexit.

 

Yup, that's what I was saying, the similarities are obvious.

I'm with @Niro, hopefully the brexit will be reversed entirely, even though it's not very likely. There is no opposing force to the conservatives to challenge the process. Labour is weak with an even weaker leader and liberals too small. But you can always hope.

[JDelage]

The only thing that can reverse Brexit is another referendum IMHO.

Voting today in the French elections. I'll be voting against the Frexit candidates...

[Geeman]

If France follows us out of the union then it's game on and we may be able to actually reach a sensible solution.

[dudewuttheheck]

On 4/20/2017 at 6:10 PM, JDelage said:

And I'm not trying to convince you. Here is what I think I understood: you're after quality. The decision to move production to a different country can only be one made for cost cutting reasons. Such decision therefore demonstrate that the company is focused on cost first and quality second. In consequence you choose not to associate with said company.

I don't want to put words in your mouth; this is what I understood from what you wrote. Any error here is due to my misunderstanding.

OK, I was wrong. You understand my point exactly. I think this is one of those cases where if we were talking in person, it would be a lot easier.

I think at the end of the day, we can't know for sure why they produce their garments there or which Japanese brands take advantage of migrant labor etc. This goes back to my point of why I prefer to buy from brands where 1 person is making the item if possible, but I obviously can't do that all the time. Even here, the raw materials or fabrics themselves may have been produced in an unethical and exploitative way so... Really we can't be sure of anything. 

I guess I could ask Standard and Strange or Indigofera themselves at denimbruin this summer if I'm feeling ballsy enough. My apologies for jumping on them so hard.

[ShootThePier]

No need to feel "ballsy". That is obviously a very important point in your purchasing consideration.

S&S, and Indigofera should have no problem answering. If they do, well there's your answer. Things are important to different people for different reasons, none are wrong.

[Coolguyzack]

Just curious, what do you all think of brands like Patagonia, who seem thoroughly committed to ethical manufacturing and worker's rights, but still choose to produce in those countries? I'm not sure what to think. When you consider all that's spent making sure it's "up to code" or whatever, couldn't that just be used to produce more locally? I guess there is a bottom line of profit being made, so I'm not sure if it's just a cleverly disguised marketing maneuver.

But at the same time, if they're actually ensuring living wages and safe working conditions to the employees who might not have a better option otherwise, is it really bad?

Also, how far down the rabbit hole of buying responsibly can one go? What if everything's ethical except say, that the metal smelted for rivets was done so unsafely? Is it OK to buy 95% ethical pants?

[ShootThePier]

For each of us the rabbit hole is a different depth.

[dudewuttheheck]

28 minutes ago, ShootThePier said:

For each of us the rabbit hole is a different depth.

Exactly. For me, the ethics of production are not the biggest concern. It's more about the reasoning behind the brand's decision that matters most. I would prefer them to make decisions based on trying to make the best product rather than trying to save money. However, I know that I can't make all my purchasing decisions based entirely on this.

[JDelage]

I think there are two ways the word "exploitation" is used. The first one is for true exploitation: when an employer feels free to not honor the terms of their contract because they are protected by the authorities, for some reason (e.g., corruption). The second way the word is used in rich countries is every time workers accept willingly to work in conditions that we deem unpalatable (that includes for too little money). This is a usage of the word that demonstrates a a complete misunderstanding of economics.

[dudewuttheheck]

38 minutes ago, JDelage said:

I think there are two ways the word "exploitation" is used. The first one is for true exploitation: when an employer feels free to not honor the terms of their contract because they are protected by the authorities, for some reason (e.g., corruption). The second way the word is used in rich countries is every time workers accept willingly to work in conditions that we deem unpalatable (that includes for too little money). This is a usage of the word that demonstrates a a complete misunderstanding of economics.

Agreed. Not only this, but as far as I can tell, it is not exactly easy for us to know how "exploited" the workers are that make the garments we buy, unless it's a one man brand (including Ooe) or something like Himel.

[keybladehero]

to be honest right, regarding the controversial japanese brands and international retailers issue..... is it possible for them to adopt a model similar to naked and famous? Naked and famous retailers pretty much sells the same price as tate+yoko so couldn't japanese brands do the same too?

[UkeNo]

5 hours ago, dudewuttheheck said:

Exactly. For me, the ethics of production are not the biggest concern. It's more about the reasoning behind the brand's decision that matters most. I would prefer them to make decisions based on trying to make the best product rather than trying to save money. However, I know that I can't make all my purchasing decisions based entirely on this.

So you don't mind them being 'unethical', as long as the company doesn't save money or make a bad quality product? 

I find this odd? I'm sure this wasn't exactly what you were implying but still, you prefer quality of goods over ethics? 

Edited April 24, 2017 by UkeNo
Stiring the pot

[Foxy2]

essentially, isn't that the whole dilemma - ethical, expensive, but potentially inferior/inconsitent product/supply vs. un-ethical, cheap and consitent product/supply?

Edited June 13, 2017 by Foxy2

[mrman]

I don't think that it's that simple, ethics vs cost

[Foxy2]

no, it's supply, quality, ethics and cost.

depending on who you are (brand or consumer, small(er) brand or big brand) the sequence changes...but cost almost never comes first.

Edited April 24, 2017 by Foxy2