Levi's Vintage Clothing

[entertainment!]

The Levi's store in the Meatpacking District has some of these on display in the LVC area, though I suspect they were not vintage.

[cheapmuthafukr]

just got some 37s today... thaks aho... and love them. but tight in the waist, but that shouldnt be a problem in a few hours... if this denim is like the 33s.

fit pic:

[Madder_Lake]

I’d like to talk about indigo dye, since, as my screen name suggests, it is colour that is my main interest — specifically about the indigo in 501’s through the century.

The first thing I’d like to clear up is a misconception that I’ve seen in a number of places: that indigo is the ‘colour of workwear’ from the 19th Century onwards. This is not true. Indigo is one of the oldest dyes, but it has also been throughout history, one of the colours most invested with prestige and mystery, in places with magic. In antiquity it was second only to Shellfish purple in value. Its significance as a dye shipped from India to Europe from the Middle Ages onwards was so great that it powered the economies of both Asia and Europe and created a whole dying industry in Europe that became highly specialised. The substance was graded from the highest quality to the lowest. It is inconceivable that the highest quality indigo would have been used for workmen’s clothing — it was far too expensive. The likely thing is that such clothes were dyed in home-grown European woad, which had a lower quality, was less expensive, and was traditionally used for wool dying.

Indeed the woad dye vat has sometimes a greenish tinge (from the addition of sodium hydrosulphite, perhaps), which may explain why early Levi’s dyed in natural indigo have a greenish tinge. It is not the case — and here is another misconception — that natural indigo fades to green. It doesn’t. There are examples of indigo-dyed cloth that are over 5,500 years old (Old Kingdom Egypt) and they have not faded to green: they are still pale blue.

So indigo is not the colour exclusively of workwear: it was the colour of the aristocratic coat or dress, of the police uniform, of the services, particularly the navy and air forces, but also many armies (the Yankee army for example), of curtains and furnishings in the best houses, and from one end of the world to the other. It was so ubiquitous that it extended to all levels of society, with different qualities of the dye used. It was anything but a cheap throwaway product. Indigo is a prestigious dye.

The second thing is that indigo is never just indigo: the dye vats invariably have other chemicals and dyes present. It doesn’t matter whether one is talking about natural indigo — i.e. indigo extracted from plants — or indigo synthesised in a laboratory (which is the kind of indigo that we jeans-lovers mostly have familiarity with) there will be other chemicals present. The most important accompaniment of natural indigo (at least in its indigofera tinctoria form) is indirubin, which is a red dye and gives natural indigo a rich purplish hue. But then there is no reason that this cannot also be added to the synthetic dye as well — which is not to say that it often is. Madder, which is a red dye, was also added to deepen the blue and give a sense of a rich purple. The art of the Master Dyer — which was one of the most prestigious of all the crafts associated with the textile industry, highly specialised and often highly secretive — was to know what to add to create the indigo with the finest tone. Recipes were not often shared and often were passed down only through family businesses. So how jeans are dyed, with what level of expertise, and with what additional chemicals and dyes, is a matter for a master craftsman.

Nor is it necessary for indigo dye to be only natural or only synthetic. The two could be mixed, either in the same dye vat or by dipping the yarn into first one dye vat and then another. And in fact this did happen in the difficult transition from natural indigo to synthetic, since master dyers were often unhappy with the look of the synthetic product.

All of this brings me to LVC recreations and the originals they are imitating.

I have, as I’ve already posted, some familiarity with the 1955 501. I also own the LVC 1947 and 1955. The indigo on the 1947 is superb. In fact, as I write, I am wearing natural indigo SdA XX-28’s, and the indigo on the them is hard to distinguish from the LVC 47’s. Perhaps the SdA’s are just a touch deeper, but they both have that hint of redness that comes out in direct sunlight and makes them look a little purplish. Excellent in both cases. But the LVC 55’s are another thing again. The indigo on these is just astonishing! It is so rich and deep that it is hard to believe that these are just a pair of jeans. Moreover, the description that Paul T. has given here and on his blog about the way these fade exactly accords with my memory of how the original 55’s faded. At every stage they look great, they just progress through these different stages of a work of art, distressing in the most amazing way. So even though I doubt the dye recipe is exactly the same, it is probably a very close reproduction with an indistinguishable look. I wonder if it is possible to get any information about who was the master dyer from 1947 to 1955 at Levi’s and some idea of how he achieved this most remarkable feat? Because as far as the dying art goes this was a work of genius.

Here is a picture of four pair of raw unwashed jeans (and one pair of single wash natural indigo jeans for comparison purposes).

At the far left are PBJ-AI002 in natural indigo. They are just there for comparison purposes because they are one wash. So the second from the left is LVC47, then LVC55, PRPS Raw, and APC Raw. The tonal differences are pretty subtle and have not come out fully in the picture but the PRPS and the APC have more of a grey colour than an indigo. The LVC47’s have not been done justice here and I might try a different photo in different lighting conditions — they are richer than the PRPS or APC. But what should stand out is the middle pair of LVC55’s. An amazing tonality!

The look of these jeans makes me wonder: did Levi’s experiment in the original 55’s (and even the 47’s) with a combination of natural indigo — which at the time was still being produced in quantity in Mexico and other places, such as India — and whether they did or not, just how did they achieve that incredible tone of indigo? And how has it been reproduced so well in the LVC line?

[Paul T]

INteresting post, thanks.

It's hard to judge how jeans fade, isn't it? But I'm interested that you compare the SDA with the 1947 because I'm amazed how similar my SDA103XX natural indigo are to 1947. A very distinct look that couldn't be more dissmilar from fast-fasing Japanese denim. And as you say, the 55 are different again. They're actuallty like sammies, in that they crock really quickly. But then sammies keep crocking and get really boring..

I am close to certain that Cone never used natural indigo, from the 30s onwards; there is debate about whether they used it in the 20s. Officially they should have been using natural indigo, not synthetic in 1915-1922, as there were restrictions on the German, BASF synthetic product. But recent investigations suggest they may well have got the synthetic product thoughout this period via Canada.

What a good question about who was in charge of dyeing in the 40s. I will ask.

The big - and sad - new here is that the wonderful Ralph THarpe, who's interviewed on my website, has left the company.(It's been suggested he's still a consultant). He's been described as a historic American icon and I believe that's correct - he's the man responsible for all that amazing work on LVC products. Cone have recruited a very experienced hand, Budd Strickland, to replace him, but I shall so miss Ralph's experience and incredible depth of knowledge - I was always planning a more extended trip to Cone than my last one, and I'm incredibly sorry I won't meet him there. IN any case, I hope to cath him again reasonably soon, and perhaps I can ask who was in charge of dyeing, in the late 40s and early 50s.

[Madder_Lake]

INteresting post, thanks.

It's hard to judge how jeans fade, isn't it? But I'm interested that you compare the SDA with the 1947 because I'm amazed how similar my SDA103XX natural indigo are to 1947. A very distinct look that couldn't be more dissmilar from fast-fasing Japanese denim. And as you say, the 55 are different again. They're actuallty like sammies, in that they crock really quickly. But then sammies keep crocking and get really boring..

When I put my SdA's alongside the 47's I find it hard to tell the difference, very interesting that you have had the same experience. And I suspect that natural indigo is harder to fade than synthetic because of some of those additional natural substances, like gluten.

I am close to certain that Cone never used natural indigo, from the 30s onwards; there is debate about whether they used it in the 20s. Officially they shouldn't have, as there were restrictions on the German, BASF product. But recent investigations suggest they may well have got the synthetic product thoughout this period via Canada.

This seems to have gotten turned around: Cone should have used natural indigo in the teens and maybe twenties because BASF had the patent to synthetic indigo and the allies had to madly scramble to revive their natural indigo supplies for the dying of service uniforms. So, yes, if they were smuggling in anything in the teens it should have been synthetic indigo. But I don't remember: wasn't Canada officially at war too?

And what happened during the second world war? BASF was still the main producer of synthetic indigo. Had they lost exclusive rights to manufacture it by then? I've read nothing about the problem of getting Indigo in WWII. How did this affect Levi's?

What a good question about who was in charge of dyeing in the 40s. I will ask.

The big - and sad - new here is that the wonderful Ralph THarpe, who's interviewed on my website, has left the company.(It's been suggested he's still a consultant). He's been described as a historic American icon and I believe that's correct - he's the man responsible for all that amazing work on LVC products. Cone have recruited a very experienced hand, Budd Strickland, to replace him, but I shall so miss Ralph's experience and incredible depth of knowledge - I was always planning a more extended trip to Cone than my last one, and I'm incredibly sorry I won't meet him there. IN any case, I hope to cath him again reasonably soon, and perhaps I can ask who was in charge of dyeing, in the late 40s and early 50s.

That is sad --- more knowledge and expertise lost.

[Paul T]

This seems to have gotten turned around: Cone should have used natural indigo in the teens and maybe twenties because BASF had the patent to synthetic indigo and the allies had to madly scramble to revive their natural indigo supplies for the dying of service uniforms. So, yes, if they were smuggling in anything in the teens it should have been synthetic indigo. But I don't remember: wasn't Canada officially at war too?

.

Sorry, my bad... late here. You are right, it did get turned around.. I should have said Cone never used natural indigo, from the 30s onwards; there is debate about whether they used synthetic in the 20s. Officially they shouldn't have [etc]. (I've corrected the original post)

Ralph was still trying to find info on what dye they used in the 20s; Levi's from then are really black, he was speculating they might have still been using early vat dye-ing, but with synthetic indigo. But of course, there is huge variation on the vintage examples.

One SuFU poster PM'd me recently, saying how the Japanese have been investigating vintage production technique for 40 years, and that Cone have only done so for the last decade. It\s important to say this is not at all true - they started to pull out their old looms and rediscover that vintage formula as early as 1989 or 1990, perhaps even before that in conjunction with Levi's Japan. Evis were working wiht Kurabo around the same time as Levi's Japan (each say they were first) but Cone have, bit by bit, built on their investigations for 2 decades now. THat's not to say that other Japanese companies haven't done an amazing job - they have produced a huge range of fabrics, and have probably put more money into replicating vintage fabrics than have Cone.

[Madder_Lake]

Yes, I can't believe that the formulas and the methods for making the dye vats from 1945 onwards weren't written down and filed away somewhere. They just couldn't have done such a great job reproducing the post war dyes if they had been recreating them through trial and error. The Japanese have been at a huge disadvantage in this, but I agree with you that they've done an amazing job. But the early dye jobs in the 30's with synthetic indigo would have been trial and error, there was just no deep expertise to draw upon.

What is interesting to me is that Levi's and other jeans makers were going in the opposite direction to the hunt for colour-fast dyes (so that in the 60's an English Bobbies uniform would not fade in a hundred years!) they went for great dyes that would abrade well in a year. Whoever did this really deserves the credit for inventing the art of making jeans.

[Paul T]

what dye did the English bobbies use?

DO you have any more good references on indigo/blue dyes beyond the Jenny Balfour-Paul book?

[rnrswitch]

Could you guys take this worthless conversation to the PMs. This seems trivial (10).

Haha.

I also owned some SDA 103s and always thought that the SDA resembled the 47ss the most in denim color and texture. More so than the SugarCane 47s. Has anyone recently taken any macros of vintage 47 denim with LVC denim.

Paul you got any connections with vintage 47 denim. I wonder if Mike Harris has any folks with this type of access.

[Madder_Lake]

what dye did the English bobbies use?

DO you have any more good references on indigo/blue dyes beyond the Jenny Balfour-Paul book?

I am pretty sure it was natural indigo dyed serge, and that tradition seems to go back to Tudor England when the Beadle was dressed in blue. Originally I imagine the source must have been woad, but after the East India Company started importing it changed to Indigofera Tinctoria. I am pretty sure that the tradition bound services were the last to move to synthetic indigo --- not the least because it was a Hunnish plot!

I have a couple of other sources on Indigo, some on William Morris and that Pre-Raphaelite craft tradition, some articles from journals. There are no good full-length books though but hers, and as you will know, her book is great on everything BUT jeans. She is not much interested in the 20th Century.

On a personal note, my grandfather was an English policeman in the 60s and I remember well the blue of his uniform. When I got the PBJ AI-002 I immediately thought: that is the blue of the old police uniform.

[Paul T]

I have a friend with some deadstock early 50s, as well as worn-in late 40s that I've done comparisons with in the past, before I had a decent digital, when I get a mo will do again vs LVC.

It's really, really important to emphasise that you could take a particular Cone fabric and compare it with its vintage inspiration and find them identical - I've been with them and looked at the 66 jeans they used to develop their 66 fabric. But of course there will be a 69 fabric and a 61 fabric and they will look quite different. Late 40s jeans vary a lot; in fact, so do early 40s. THey can be black and grainy, or dk blue and not so grainy. SC seem to take the less-grainy version as their model, which looks more like the modern Cone 1942 (whose formula, I suspect, they've recently improved).

Looking at my nipper's 1969 deadstock, his red tag is already frayed and knackered. I've not seen that replicated on LVC altho, again, it oculd be that late 60s jeans suffered from this more/less than other periods.

[entertainment!]

Robert the historian at the Meatpacking District Levi's store told me that the current LVC jeans use nylon for the red tag whereas the vintage ones used rayon. This could explain the difference in wear. I wonder what Levi's Japan used on their LVC repros.

[Madder_Lake]

Hi Mike [sorry, Mr Switch I meant]--- this is not exactly what you asked for but here is a head to head comparison of the SdA XXX-28. The denim is different, but the indigo is pretty much identical. And the interesting thing is that the SdA's are natural indigo!

cheers

Of course the cut of the SdA's is a very close repro of the Levi 47.

[Madder_Lake]

Fit pics of the 47's are probably not so welcome anymore — after all, everyone knows just what they look like — but this is a cautionary tale. I went TTS on these and they fit just fine, pre-soak, but now I am worried about how they are going to shrink once washed, 6 months down the track. It was a case of reading all the good advice about sizing up and then pressing the button in a what-the-hell mood. So in six months I may have no circulation in the lower half of my body. Will they stretch out an inch do you think?

[kit99bar]

Cold hand washes only if you are afraid of them shrinking too much

[jwsach]

last page was nuts

[Madder_Lake]

Cold hand washes only if you are afraid of them shrinking too much

Yes thanks, I'll have to do that. And keep the waistband out of the water as far as possible. I'm glad I didn't soak them before trying them on, that would have been a disaster.

[grooveholmes]

Personally ML, I think they might look better with a little shrinkage-- they seem a bit baggy to me. But I also understand not everyone has the same aesthetic and fit preferences. I bought a pair of 47s TTS last month for uber-cheap and they were uncomfortably snug. I was so paranoid about too much waistband shrink so I did a 30-min warm soak while wearing them all the way through (from soak to dry) to let the fabric stretch out a bit and then sat in the sun while sitting as much as possible. They actually fit better now than when I first bought them.

[Madder_Lake]

Personally ML, I think they might look better with a little shrinkage-- they seem a bit baggy to me. But I also understand not everyone has the same aesthetic and fit preferences. I bought a pair of 47s TTS last month for uber-cheap and they were uncomfortably snug. I was so paranoid about too much waistband shrink so I did a 30-min warm soak while wearing them all the way through (from soak to dry) to let the fabric stretch out a bit and then sat in the sun while sitting as much as possible. They actually fit better now than when I first bought them.

thanks groove --- I'll give that a try. I'd be happier if they were more snug everywhere but at the waist. I've got some sunlight coming up, the weatherman says, so I have an opportunity to let them dry on the body. Thanks for the advice.

[rnrswitch]

Hi Mike [sorry, Mr Switch I meant]--- this is not exactly what you asked for but here is a head to head comparison of the SdA XXX-28. The denim is different, but the indigo is pretty much identical. And the interesting thing is that the SdA's are natural indigo!

cheers

Of course the cut of the SdA's is a very close repro of the Levi 47.

Holy shit. Those look exactly the same.

[Sansome1877]

Your up late switch, I guess your enjoying all of this information as well.

[Paul T]

Fit pics of the 47's are probably not so welcome anymore — after all, everyone knows just what they look like — but this is a cautionary tale. I went TTS on these and they fit just fine, pre-soak, but now I am worried about how they are going to shrink once washed, 6 months down the track. It was a case of reading all the good advice about sizing up and then pressing the button in a what-the-hell mood. So in six months I may have no circulation in the lower half of my body. Will they stretch out an inch do you think?

Ha, as the 1947 sizing guy I think you wlll be ok; put a piece of wood in the waistband once you take them out of the soak. The waist on my 55s if easily true to original size; the thighs will stretch out a little bit with wear. The older 1947 were underzied by one inch, which would always cause reproductive problems if you go TTS, those were probably accurate.

Robert the historian at the Meatpacking District Levi's store told me that the current LVC jeans use nylon for the red tag whereas the vintage ones used rayon. This could explain the difference in wear. I wonder what Levi's Japan used on their LVC repros.

INteresting. I thought I was told the new ones were Rayon, but that explains the difference. Will ask why when I get a chance.

Incidentally, do you know some people now call Rayon 'bamboo' cos it sounds cooler?

[Madder_Lake]

Thanks Paul, as a last resort I may have to try Bulemia. (And yeah, you're right these were exactly the tagged size.)

[entertainment!]

INteresting. I thought I was told the new ones were Rayon, but that explains the difference. Will ask why when I get a chance.

Now that I think back, I shouldn't have been so definitive about the tags. We spent a good bit of time looking at a Type I jacket (Made in USA) and he did tell me the tag was nylon and not rayon. But he looked at it carefully to make sure which might imply that some of the jeans are using rayon tags now. I would be very interested to hear what your sources say.

[dr.house]

Not a typical jean pic...spring 2010, reminds me how time flys. My beloved daughter and me barbecuing 1st time this year (I wear my 44's). Dunno why exactly, but I love this pic.

[josh mullen]

food looks good. it's funny how many kids have been popping up in pics the past few months.

[beeetus]

First pair of LVC. 1947.

[Sympathy-For-The-Denim]

nice 1900s levi´s at the bay:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/VINTAGE-DENIM-BUCKLEBACK-100-year-old-LEVIS-JEANS-NR-/280585336298?pt=Vintage_Men_s_Clothing&hash=item41543075ea

i really love the arcuates on them!

[fardin]

nice find, but 1900s with belt loops?

[wgmds]

its most likely around 1918 or so. the 1915 didnt have belt loops, and the 1920 201 has belt loops. the fades on the are amazing!