Levi's Vintage Clothing

[rnrswitch]

Unfortunately, I don't think it is true that a ton of high school students are wearing Levis. Maybe a few, but for the most part True Religions, Sevens, Abercrombie, etc. are what kids are wearing. There are a couple cool kids still wearing the STFs, but very few.

Also, to Levisforever, chill with your tone. It is getting a bit offensive and I think your dead set alliance to Levis is blinding your ability to see the worthiness of Japanese denim companies.

[ChuckO]

Unfortunately, I don't think it is true that a ton of high school students are wearing Levis. Maybe a few, but for the most part True Religions, Sevens, Abercrombie, etc. are what kids are wearing. There are a couple cool kids still wearing the STFs, but very few.

Also, to Levisforever, chill with your tone. It is getting a bit offensive and I think your dead set alliance to Levis is blinding your ability to see the worthiness of Japanese denim companies.

Abercrombie, now that I'm against.

[setterman]

"The '47, '55, '66 should all be mainstream jeans sold in volumes that would allow Levi to sell them for half the price we pay now."

I agree wholeheartedly Chuck O. Hell, I'd argue that the current 501 STF should be dropped completely (since at least in my neck of the woods, the 505 has preplaced it as the "standard" Levis) and an affordable ($60 to $80) selvage 501 should replace it in one, or all three of the models you listed.

[jake431]

I fear the reality is the masses don't care about selvage. We do - but we are already a tiny minority in the jeans purchasing world. Even for $60-80, I don't see most people grabbing them over a pair that costs half as much.

[salaami]

motherfuckers are out of their gourd if they think that LVC really ranks(quality-wise) with any of the japanese brands we geek over here on sufu. lets narrow it down to just one city: osaka(all the denim is from okayama). ive seen and thoroughly analyzed all possible aspects of the LVC, and 9 times out of ten the okayama made jean is better. and im not biased in my comparison, it just is what it is. levis has been cutting corners for over 50 years, even before they started putting fucking cardboard in place of a leather patch. get serious! plus on the real i can get a lesser known japanese jean thats better made for less than the$180 the store down the streed is selling the LVC 47s for. i turned the jean competely inside out, and nothing impressed me, and im an anal-retentive bastard about details. look at the pic blacap just posted above. the stitching on that back-pocket is garbage!. the two rows of stitching are too far apart(esp. in the lower right corner) and you can actually see the yellow(poor color choice, dark is better)bartacks in the corners! why, because the 'artisan'(yeah right) didn't know what the fuck he was doing, or he was drunk as hell. this pic is enough within itself to discredit levis! and this is the 'high end' stuff?

[erk]

were levi's ever an artisan denim maker? was that ever their goal?

and yes, that back pocket on those 44s does look pretty odd, but the bar tack thing you mentioned I don't know enough about. My 37s and 47s both have that stitching (dark colored), but I have no idea if that stitching was there on originals.

[Dr_Heech]

heech, dude, all your current pairs are like 34-36 waist. Why cant you sell me all your 38s?

Nah, I'll just boil wash 'em down a bit

[heflys]

The '47, '55 and '66 for $60-80? LOL. The price is already relatively affordable; how could they possibly maintain the same quality at those prices?

[Dr_Heech]

hello all- have not posted in quite a while. Im thinking about ordering up another pair from cultizm. Id like to try a cinch back model, to add to my 47s. Are advice on which of the current cinch back offerings are slimmest. The y are all a bit baggy in comparison to say a 1966, but any advice would be appreciated. Im a 35w and skinny.

Thanks

PS-the lack of LVC represenation in the states is truly disturbing. I hope levis does not go the way of Us steel industry and buick....

Try the 1937 501xx, it's the slimmest cinch-back model (with belt loops).

[ChuckO]

I fear the reality is the masses don't care about selvage. We do - but we are already a tiny minority in the jeans purchasing world. Even for $60-80, I don't see most people grabbing them over a pair that costs half as much.

Absolutely but that's kind of what I'm saying. Levi dug themselves that hole. Now except for us geeks the brand is devalued. People do pay that for other brands. They had been paying a lot more lately for all kinds of hipster stuff, right? And I'm not talking about Japanese selvedge. I mean 7 for Mankind, Nudie. Shouldn't the company that literally invented this stuff be somewhere close to that in it's own country? Instead of operating like a Japanese denim company who's value add is in quality, design and trying cool new stuff with heavier cotton, messing around with schlubbyness, etc. they pound out junk for the landfills. LVC excepted. They could do all that without most people realizing it was going on. They went the other route and said people don't care so let's sell junk.

It's like when I bought my first used pair of '55's (off of you I think) I had just started reading about selvedge and I wanted to give it a try because while I was reading I remembered how great it was back in the 70's - 80's(back when I didn't think about how they made it) to get jeans and wash a couple of times and they would mold to fit you. I immediately remembered when Levi's were great and what was great about them. Learning about selvedge just made me realize why. And I loved the '55's.

[jake431]

Absolutely but that's kind of what I'm saying. Levi dug themselves that hole. Now except for us geeks the brand is devalued. People do pay that for other brands. They had been paying a lot more lately for all kinds of hipster stuff, right? And I'm not talking about Japanese selvedge. I mean 7 for Mankind, Nudie. Shouldn't the company that literally invented this stuff be somewhere close to that in it's own country? Instead of operating like a Japanese denim company who's value add is in quality, design and trying cool new stuff with heavier cotton, messing around with schlubbyness, etc. they pound out junk for the landfills. LVC excepted. They could do all that without most people realizing it was going on. They went the other route and said people don't care so let's sell junk.

It's like when I bought my first used pair of '55's (off of you I think) I had just started reading about selvedge and I wanted to give it a try because while I was reading I remembered how great it was back in the 70's - 80's(back when I didn't think about how they made it) to get jeans and wash a couple of times and they would mold to fit you. I immediately remembered when Levi's were great and what was great about them. Learning about selvedge just made me realize why. And I loved the '55's.

What they make is "good enough" for 99% of the population, and honestly, the denim in standard LVC's is more than up to the challenge of what most people put them through in their daily life. Levis has no real reason to change how they've been making their standard model jeans. What we denim heads like about our jeans is not really what speaks to the populace at large.

[ChuckO]

"The '47, '55, '66 should all be mainstream jeans sold in volumes that would allow Levi to sell them for half the price we pay now."

I agree wholeheartedly Chuck O. Hell, I'd argue that the current 501 STF should be dropped completely (since at least in my neck of the woods, the 505 has preplaced it as the "standard" Levis) and an affordable ($60 to $80) selvage 501 should replace it in one, or all three of the models you listed.

And the '47's do sell for that, right? Isn't this thread filled with people alerting other LVC fans that one store or another has some 47's on the clearance rack for $80? The question is is that sold at a profit but I suspect they could make money at $80 if the volumes were there.

[fardin]

one of the things that strike me is that levis didnt make enough advertisment for their lvc line. at least here in europe. if been wearing 501s since the mid of the 70s and just found out about the hole vintage stuff a couple of years ago. i have posted some levis tv ads from the beginning of the 90s and back then i didnt even realize that is was an ad for some vinatge cuts. maybe thats my perception or i am a bit slow but still thats strange. wasent it for pauls book or this forum or the internet i would have never found out about it.

and i think the internet makes it easier to buy all that stuff now.

so its a shame they dont realy advertize their stuff.

does that make sense?

and of course is even stranger that one cant get levis in states, the place it all started. and the same goes with lee, only japan makes some repros thats even stranger.

[ChuckO]

What they make is "good enough" for 99% of the population, and honestly, the denim in standard LVC's is more than up to the challenge of what most people put them through in their daily life. Levis has no real reason to change how they've been making their standard model jeans. What we denim heads like about our jeans is not really what speaks to the populace at large.

I'm just saying for those folks JC Penny Arizona jeans could and should be the good enough jean. Levi should be something more. That ship has sailed though and at least in America (for me) like the American car companies they wrecked something amazing. And by wrecked I don't mean going bankrupt but having most employees (and I include management, especially management) come in and sleep walk through their day putting out something that's "good enough".

[heflys]

Levi dug themselves that hole. Now except for us geeks the brand is devalued.

I'm not sure I fully understand this "devalued" argument. Outside a few select brands, I see the average person predominately wearing Levi's. And as Jake stated, though they might not be premium goods, standard Levi's are quality products for the asking price.

People do pay that for other brands. They had been paying a lot more lately for all kinds of hipster stuff, right? And I'm not talking about Japanese selvedge. I mean 7 for Mankind, Nudie. Shouldn't the company that literally invented this stuff be somewhere close to that in it's own country?

Most people only wear what's accepted by the mainstream, or the so-called elite. It's not because Levi's is necessarily lazy, or lax in their advertisement.

Instead of operating like a Japanese denim company who's value add is in quality, design and trying cool new stuff with heavier cotton, messing around with schlubbyness, etc. they pound out junk for the landfills.

How are you reaching the conclusion that average Levi's are "junk for landfills"? And how would becoming more "experimental"- when the average consumer could care less about selvedge products-going to increase business?

They went the other route and said people don't care so let's sell junk.

How could they possibly maintain the same quality of LVC, get it out in the same quantities as their standard selection and make it affordable to the average consumer? They'd have to cut some major corners somewhere. As has been stated, Levi's is a large corporation seeking to maximize profits; not cater the whims of a select audience.

[rnrswitch]

I think that marketing for the LVC is a big problem. I talk to a lot of friends, who, by the way, do not care about selvedge or what not, and I have convinced them to purchase a $180 pair of jeans (47s) based on the nostalgia of the item (brando, cowboys, etc.) My mom would love to have a pair of jeans from the 60s because it reminds here of high school. They need more adds in magazines with pictures of icons wearing their jeans. It is pretty easy. The LVC brand won't take off but it would definitely increase demand. I hear people (older generation), when I talk of Levis, say, "They don't make them like they used to." The answer is, "Yes they do." Just fork over some more money. I think a lot of people would kick out the extra bucks to have that "one" pair of jeans. You know, "The go-to-jeans" for doing anything. You can beat them up for a lifetime and still love them more as time progresses, but Levis seems to have gone the auto industry route. "If we make good "timeless" garments, then how are we gonna keep them coming back?"

[heflys]

You can't even really find the brand in North America anymore......Shame.

[RRLselvageDenim]

For what it's worth, I think the Levis Execs could learn a thing or two from the RRL marketing team. RRL since it's inception in 1993 has gone through various re-incarnations and has come out a more viable brand. I see no reason why the LVC can't survive here in the States considering they practically invented the product.

[airfrogusmc]

quote:

Instead of operating like a Japanese denim company who's value add is in quality, design and trying cool new stuff with heavier cotton, messing around with schlubbyness, etc. they pound out junk for the landfills.

I think Paul pointed out in an earlier post that Cone is NOW making the correct denim for each year that LVC is reproducing. This is a very recent event and in my opinion on that should have started along time ago. Some of there lines like the 200 & 300 series are really good as are their 1955s and some of their newer repros like the 1917s.

Why would a company trying to reproduce historic garments want to use heavier slubbier denim? Wouldn't that defeat the purpose. In 50 years folks will still be talking about the 501 but I doubt any of the Japanese makers will even be a footnote.

[ChuckO]

I'm going to make a final stand so I don't piss everybody off completely and respond to heFly. My apologies to anyone bored by all this or who couldn't get a word, picture or question in edgewise.

"I'm not sure I fully understand this "devalued" argument. Outside a few select brands, I see the average person predominately wearing Levi's. And as Jake stated, though they might not be premium goods, standard Levi's are quality products for the asking price."

I don't know what to make of this especially in a LVC forum. Would we be here if we didn't think it was worth paying more for LVC and therefore isn't mainstream Levi's devalued? My real argument for them being devalued is will anybody want vintage versions of Levi's mainstream jeans 20, 30 years down the road? Anybody here sitting on their hands waiting for some re-issue acid wash jeans or combing second hand stores for them?

"Most people only wear what's accepted by the mainstream, or the so-called elite. It's not because Levi's is necessarily lazy, or lax in their advertisement. "

I don't get this logic at all. It doesn't address anything I'm saying. It's a non-argument. People are idiots and a company would be a fool not to take their money is what I take away from that. Not sure why you want to defend that behavior. It's not good long term business thinking.

"How are you reaching the conclusion that average Levi's are "junk for landfills"? And how would becoming more "experimental"- when the average consumer could care less about selvedge products-going to increase business?"

Experimental or I'd say innovative in a useful way. That's what most smart businesses are looking to do. Again you seem to be defending business practices that I would say lead to at best a dead end.

"How could they possibly maintain the same quality of LVC, get it out in the same quantities as their standard selection and make it affordable to the average consumer? They'd have to cut some major corners somewhere. As has been stated, Levi's is a large corporation seeking to maximize profits; not cater the whims of a select audience."

I Agree they aren't going to do this. They could make LVC in quantity and quantity allows you to lower the price. People like Toyota do. Levi ain't going to though. My points were more that they should never have gone down the road to this sorry fate. They should have left this to JC Penney and Sears. I think they could have made the same money selling somewhat less for somewhat more money.

[rnrswitch]

There will most likely be a place in history for Evisu.

In regards to Cone. Cone is now making some really interesting denim out of their white oak plant. I have some jeans with the tweed denim and this stuff really blows my mind. I think levis should start coming out with innovative stuff and continue on improving the LVC line.

[ChuckO]

quote:

Instead of operating like a Japanese denim company who's value add is in quality, design and trying cool new stuff with heavier cotton, messing around with schlubbyness, etc. they pound out junk for the landfills.

I think Paul pointed out in an earlier post that Cone is NOW making the correct denim for each year that LVC is reproducing. This is a very recent event and in my opinion on that should have started along time ago. Some of there lines like the 200 & 300 series are really good as are their 1955s and some of their newer repros like the 1917s.

Why would a company trying to reproduce historic garments want to use heavier slubbier denim? Wouldn't that defeat the purpose. In 50 years folks will still be talking about the 501 but I doubt any of the Japanese makers will even be a footnote.

No, I mean on new models of selvedge jeans. LVC should constantly try to make the stuff more and more authentic. I wouldn't limit myself to repro's though outside of LVC.

I was kind of imagining if they never got into trying to sell every human being in the world a pair of jeans for $20. Like what if in the early eighties they kept on with sanforised, selvedge denim and went up market instead of down market.

And please no arguments about how great it is that they have everybody in the malls wandering around like zombies in a pair of ugly overly faded jeans. I come to this forum to avoid that world.

[erk]

There will most likely be a place in history for Evisu.

In regards to Cone. Cone is now making some really interesting denim out of their white oak plant. I have some jeans with the tweed denim and this stuff really blows my mind. I think levis should start coming out with innovative stuff and continue on improving the LVC line.

I totally agree. they did that stuff with engineered garments, but what if they did a collab with cone? they could use vintage cuts and unleash some of that crazy cool denim Cone has been coming up with recently. but keep working on the LVC line of course. The only problem I could see with that is if nobody knows about selvage denim, even less people know about cone; but thats nothing a great marketing strategy couldn't fix.

[Shorty Long]

Not sure about the exact details, but Cone is supposedly producing a "special edition" denim for the LVC 1915s that will come out for Fall.

I totally agree. they did that stuff with engineered garments, but what if they did a collab with cone? they could use vintage cuts and unleash some of that crazy cool denim Cone has been coming up with recently. but keep working on the LVC line of course. The only problem I could see with that is if nobody knows about selvage denim, even less people know about cone; but thats nothing a great marketing strategy couldn't fix.

[erk]

Not sure about the exact details, but Cone is supposedly producing a "special edition" denim for the LVC 1915s that will come out for Fall.

thats true, but it is still an accurate replica of Levi denim; right?

[heflys]

I don't know what to make of this especially in a LVC forum. Would we be here if we didn't think it was worth paying more for LVC and therefore isn't mainstream Levi's devalued? My real argument for them being devalued is will anybody want vintage versions of Levi's mainstream jeans 20, 30 years down the road? Anybody here sitting on their hands waiting for some re-issue acid wash jeans or combing second hand stores for them?

It's me who does not get the logic of this statement. Weren't you just a minute go complaining about the price of the LVC line, and in fact recommending that Levi find some means to cut the value in half (of select models) whilst some how infusing the mainstream line with the quality standards of LVC (which is nigh impossible)? Also, aren't people excited over the LVC line because it's exclusive and means of manufacturing rare? Do you think they'll be as prone to collecting them if they're mass produced in the means you suggest ? Again, it's me who doesn't get the logic.

I don't get this logic at all. It doesn't address anything I'm saying. It's a non-argument. People are idiots and a company would be a fool not to take their money is what I take away from that. Not sure why you want to defend that behavior. It's not good long term business thinking.

Defend such behavior? I just laugh when people believe that Levi's, a 4 billion dollar company-who's vintage line obviously isn't their top priority-should some how return to the good ol'days and start selling vintage style denim at reasonable prices.

Experimental or I'd say innovative in a useful way. That's what most smart businesses are looking to do. Again you seem to be defending business practices that I would say lead to at best a dead end.

Innovative as in what? They frequently experiment with their denim, as displayed by their questionable RED line. Changing weight., type of materials used, etc. Would only matter to those who are already denim heads, not necessarily the mainstream American.

Forget I said anything.

[ChuckO]

heFly, I was just throwing out an alternative vision of where Levi could have gone with the business. I'm not trying to hassle you. I didn't think anyone was taking it that serious.

Is the RED line a big deal moneywise? Does that stuff sell?

[Shorty Long]

I would guess yes.

thats true, but it is still an accurate replica of Levi denim; right?

[siq tribal brah]

sure the average joe on the street has their crappy everyday pair of Levis Red tabs and think they're the best. in fact, i myself, a sufu member have had many pairs of red tabs and see nothing wrong with them. what about when that average joe decides they want something a little nicer and decide to jump on the raw denim band wagon like many of us have within the past few years? i've seen multiple people getting STF 501's for their very first pair of "guinea pigs" in their adventures in the raw denim world that we all love so much. this leads them to appreciate denim more and maybe eventually move onto something a little more pricey once they know what they want. this may be a pair of Japanese imports, designer Dior 19cm's, APCs or even Diesel if they choose.

or they could choose to choose the company they've worn since they were a kid, Levis. After all, they've graduated from red tabs their mom used to buy them because the price was right to STF 501's or maybe some Premium Capital E's they found on the clearance rack at their local Levi's outlet. So why not try to LVC's right?

My point is, Levi's experiments with their red tab and premium line and sees what works because it is cheaper and those lines are bound to sell no matter what. the LVC stuff is a little more tricky, they know what we want and are afraid if they stray too far from that then we'll jump ship because there's a million other Japanese brands doing the same thing. The LVC line is definitely not for everyone, not everyone can appreciate it or want to shell out that kind of loot "just for a pair of jeans." Let people buy a new pair of red tabs in the fall and spring as soon as their last pair blows out, we'll have our LVC's for years to come.

[heflys]

heFly, I was just throwing out an alternative vision of where Levi could have gone with the business. I'm not trying to hassle you. I didn't think anyone was taking it that serious.

Hassle? I was just having a discussion, the point kept be brought up, so I commented on it. No hard feelings.

For what it's worth, I think the Levis Execs could learn a thing or two from the RRL marketing team.

I think their retail stores help them out immensely. They use to have a site, but..........