Urban Techwear

[Cloud_SB]

I've also seen that sort of combinations done by Bape/Mr. Bathing Ape and other brands.

Acronym has also done windstopper on their varsity, Stone Island Shadow has custom fabrics which are mind-blowing.

Combining materials, even in the way Visvim does isn't so special they just shout about it the most..well the fans shout it the hardest.

Visvim doesn't belong in this list because they are not pure tech, they are about reworking classic items with a twist, with high quality materials and with craftsmanship. They think from a classical view not from a technical view that's something which comes later.

They are in another category all together, more in line with Mr. Bathing Ape.

White mountaineering is a brand which crosses these boundaries, way more then visvim does.

[scamster]

nanamica is up there with white moutaineering in terms of trying to polarise the classic aesthetic and use of technological fabrics too I think. speaking of tech fabrics has anyone have experience with or purchased any ten-c garments?

[akuma no uta]

Once you experience ten-c, there's no going back.

[Brainboy]

Is it true that Gore is, well ... more benevolent with giving Gore-Tex licences to Japanese brands (visvim, WM, OF, Bape...)?

In the west companies must follow very strict rules and test all their GT products and many of them lost their license over the years, I'm not sure if that's true with Japanese streetwear brands.

[scamster]

that is what thought about ten-c but it's out of my price range. on my way hopefully to getting my first veilance field.

Brainboy the japanese brands you mention are all about quality of manufacture and construction that is unrivaled compared to a lot of western brands and I'm guessing that gore got fed up with them making a poorly usa designed shit jacket made in china slapping a gore-tex badge on it and charging a premium, it's gore's brand that gets ruined. also the competition is getting a little more fierce. (my humble opinion).

[Cloud_SB]

Let's be honest, gore has fucked it up for themselves also a while back.

They have been slacking and the competition jumped in with great alternatives. But the Gore marketing machine did a good job fighting the competition and they've survived that battle.

[scamster]

meant to mention that they gore got lazy but without real competition a few years back that is what can happen. what are the best alternatives to gore? got a adidas kazuki pea coat which has diaplex which is quite good although it doesn't allow the cloth to flow and is a little stiff but reading up on it, it's clever tech.

[Cloud_SB]

Totally depends on climate and use whats the best alternative.

I would go Ventile but the Gore-Tex 410 pro shell that veilance uses is awesome and beats ventile for me.

You just need a different jacket with a different fabric for different situations.

Thats also why i love my GT-J16, it's made out of different pieces of Gore-Tex on different strategic areas of the jacket to give optimal performance.

[scamster]

you're right it does depend on use and enviroment, I posted a duff question.

just looked at the firmament archive and that gt-j16 is sweet. even has gore-tex leather.

true about ventile it isn't always about the latest and greatest. quite like british millerain as a fabric.

[readytoignite]

ventile is fine for low output applications but moisture transfer is going to be a problem with a fabric that achieves water resistance through saturation.

the interesting thing about visvim is that they are not afraid to bring contemporary technology to classic pieces that evolved out of technical applications. their best stuff acknowledges that and uses stuff like goretex to bring it to the fore. i'm not putting this well but hopefully you get the idea.

btw i picked up the aether polar trench that fyi designed... kinda bummed that the lining isn't detachable but otherwise pretty stoked on how it will make out in the winter

[Abe1x]

Gore is a second class membrane now. The only thing keeping their rep up is their quality control. They use tougher face fabrics and approve garment designs. In terms of waterproof breathability just about any generic membrane (c_change, H2No, Gelatnots and the like) is going to be pretty comparable. eVent and Neoshell are way more breathable. Ventile is way more breathable too, but works differently and is less waterproof. Also note that eVent just started licensing their membrane, so it's starting to show up rebadged with house labels.

[Cloud_SB]

The real question is...what would you want more? Good quality control but have an outdated membrame (which will still keep you dry anyway) or little/no quality control and have a 'new generation' membrane.

Your new generation membrame won't be of much use if the construction quality of the jacket sucks.

Not trying to defend Gore here but new stuff isn't always better.

[Lloyd]

Yeah but it's a bit depressing to think that the most highly thought of 'tech' textile is in fact 30 years old. Has no-one come up with anything better since then?

It sounds like they have, however Gore is well known for stifling the market by for example ensuring that certain companies can only use gore-tex if they disallow other technologies (just google Gore Tex Anti Competitive). Also they have a massive 'quality branding' thing going on, charging high prices for something that's not that expensive to make and insisting companies supply a fancy looking Gore Tex booklet with their clothes to give the impression of a 'quality' textile, when in fact it's just nylon. They're like the Microsoft of the waterproof laminates industry.

I'm not at all fussed over which brand waterproof laminate is in my jacket, if it's made by Arc'teryx or Outlier I'll believe the quality is there without having to see 'Gore-Tex' on the label.

[aso2004]

If there was something that much better wouldn't TNF and Arc'teryx use it ??

Especially Arc isn't that interested about prices but more about good jackets..

TNF has their own Hyvent but doesn't use it in their high end jackets...

Maybe the newer stuff just doesn't cut it . Don't forget that gore's labs are the largest in the world and they aren't waiting around for the comp to overtake them.

Research costs millions at gore and their QC is what drives their name...

Arc still uses Gores relatively new materials (paclite etc..) and I think in terms of quality control it's hard to see how quick a shell degenerates outside the labs. That takes years if the construction keeps up.. So

Older materials haven't maybe come to full fruition..

[Lloyd]

Check out this article about an ongoing dispute between Gore and Colombia.

[Abe1x]

If there was something that much better wouldn't TNF and Arc'teryx use it ??

Especially Arc isn't that interested about prices but more about good jackets..

TNF has their own Hyvent but doesn't use it in their high end jackets...

For a brand to get a Gore license they need to agree not to use any competing membranes. TNF was big enough that they were able to negotiate a contract lets them use Hyvent. Think Patagonia recently pull the same thing off. But the key is that Gore will only agree to these deals if the second membrane is billed as a cheaper and inferior product, even if it's not actually inferior.

Arc'teryx has a long relationship with Gore. To use eVent or Neoshell they'd need to break that relationship. Not a decision to make lightly, but I'd guess they've considered it but for now are just pushing for Gore to create something better. A lot of the reason they likely didn't switch was until this year was that while eVent's membrane was better their face fabrics were inferior (they cut costs that side to keep the price on par with Gore's). But now you can get eVent bonded to whatever you want (Mountain Hardwear's DryQ is an eVent membrane with their own face fabric.) Neoshell literally just hit the market (my Westcomb still hasn't shipped yet) but if it performs as well as the early reports than it will definitely make companies think twice about keeping their Gore licenses.

Main thing is that there is zero question that both eVent and Neoshell are significantly more breathable than Gore and totally waterproof in just about all conditions most people will encounter.

[ordo]

On a related note, my 4 month old baby son is having his heart patched up tomorrow and what are they using? GORETEX.

Techninj at heart.

[wahwho11]

Is he okay?

[landstander]

hope everything goes well tomorrow ordo.

[ordo]

Is he okay?

The centre wall of his heart didn't grow properly so they are going to construct that as well as make two valves as he only has one large one now.

The Goretex apparently works well with human tissue. The heart muscle will grow around it and it will eventually become part of the heart.

I certainly hope their quality control is as good as it is reputed to be.

[devilish]

Best wishes for the little one for tomorrow and the future.

[flock 2.0]

Hope it all goes well man, and whilst obviously this is not a desirable situation it is pretty damn fitting that Ordo's son has a goretex heart.

Living in the future is the best.

[Lloyd]

bet eVent can't do that!

[readytoignite]

Gore is a second class membrane now. The only thing keeping their rep up is their quality control. They use tougher face fabrics and approve garment designs. In terms of waterproof breathability just about any generic membrane (c_change, H2No, Gelatnots and the like) is going to be pretty comparable. eVent and Neoshell are way more breathable. Ventile is way more breathable too, but works differently and is less waterproof. Also note that eVent just started licensing their membrane, so it's starting to show up rebadged with house labels.

hmmm i'm kind of partial to paclite - is there anything similar out there in terms of the degree of water-resistant breathability at the same (or better) weight class? it's probably the only tech application where i'd be happy to trade off aesthetics vs performance. otherwise yeah it kinda sucks to pay a premium for goretex if you like a particular piece from a company with gore exclusivity and only need "good enough" performance. not that i have anything against gore but i'm generally more sensitive to design in that equation.

btw this particular area of the industry is chock full of competitive drama - gore not being the inventor of their own fabric, stotz vs ventile etc.

ps - hope all went well, ordo... my 4 month old is kicking away happily and i know the only thing a parent wants is a long and fulfilling life for their little one(s)

Edited November 11, 2011 by readytoignite

[Lloyd]

I don't own anything made of goretex laminated to a traditional textile (like wool or cotton, as in http://www.nanamica.com/shopping/products/detail.php?product_id=680]this[/url] jacket), but in fabrics like this, is the wool layer directly bonded onto the goretex membrane in place of the usual nylon outer, or does it make a forth layer above the nylon layer? Also, is the outer fabric usually treated with dwr?

[seenmy]

the cotton or wool replaces the nylon face in this case,basically these fabrics pass the 'lifestyle gore testing' (note this might not be the exact name for the category but it exists as a testing category I believe) to face any gore testing all fabrics are completely stripped of any DWR before they undergo the testing, which essentially is standing in a shower for something like 10 hours (lifestyle test is just vertical rain pro test is from the sides also) the wearer or mannequin is covered essentially in tissue paper and if after the test there are any wet spots the garment fails,if its dry its good to go, there are also other tests that relate to durability,again these tests are lesser for 'lifestyle'

the issue with these gore faces (cotton/wool) is that although the gore allows it to be water proof in that the water cannot get through, the face fabric has a tendency to absorb water,even with DWR as the nature of the fabrics means they are more prone to abrasion and simply it wears off quicker. the performance issue here is if the face fabric takes on water the jacket a will get heavier and b the water on the face fabric against the membrane will give the feeling of cold to the wearer,which over longer wears if a big negative.

[Gecko]

Paramo ftw

[modern77]

So is the sizing on the Arc'tyrex insulated field jacket and the insulated shell jacket the same?

tried on the latter but would like to purchase the insulated field jacket. Any advice from those who've experienced both would be appreciated.

Edited November 12, 2011 by modern77

[seenmy]

I would say it is pretty similar in terms of chest size as its roughly on the same block,the only veilance style I have noticed to come up slightly smaller is the insulator,but thats simply because its a mid layer rather than an outer so its just trimmer all round to work with the shells,

[Skye X]

Adding some brands if they haven't been mentioned yet: TAD gear ( http://www..tripleaughtdesign.com ) and Kitanica ( http://www.kitanica.net ). I own several pouches and a fleece from TAD, and a jacket and pants from Kitanica. They're both designed for active military use, and work outstandingly in urban settings.