Shoes that look better with age...

[JohnM]

hot damn tmadd, that brought a tear to my eye as we have the exact same taste! Lately I've been moving toward 8" boots however, likely because of winter's approach, but funny that you list the Semi Dress and cap toe #8 Alden's as that's straight out of my closet...

 

aho,

 

Is this the Alden that you and Tyler have?

 

https://www.aldenshop.com/Store/DrawProducts.aspx?CategoryID=154&ParentID=94&PageID=&Action=

 

John

[tmadd]

aho,

 

Is this the Alden that you and Tyler have?

 

https://www.aldenshop.com/Store/DrawProducts.aspx?CategoryID=154&ParentID=94&PageID=&Action=

 

John

 

I forget what aho has...these are mine though: http://leathersoulhawaii.com/2009/07/29/alden-shoes-shell-cordovan-jumper-boots/

[tod]

agree with everything, but the last sentence -- i'm possibly the odd guy out: viberg's all fluff and little substance to me. i can get the same or better quality for a fraction of the price buying old/deadstock boots -- and the vintage bonus is included for free.

 

i tip my hat to them for successfully milking their target group, however. that's some business acumen!

 

 

I just find Viberg a little soul less after reading the interview with Brett where he talked about increasing the prices even further. His dad seems like a good guy, but that interview was pretty much a blueprint for alienating a section of custom.

 

The caveat I should add is that I do think a lot of their boots look great, and I would definitely buy some for the right price (I have in fact almost bought some recently), I just don't love the brand in comparison to White's, Wesco, Alden or some of the English shoe makers.

 

I hear you on Brett.  But when I first wrote out of the blue to them several years ago, I heard back directly from Jason Viberg, who was a laid back and helpful guy.  I even got an email back from "Mom" Viberg in answer to a question.  Those days are gone of course, and the designs have changed quite a bit, and prices have gotten too high.  But I have to say, their slightly-more-than-basic service boots still rock for me...

 

Here are the black HH's I owned for a while:

 

[cameosis]

I hear you on Brett.  But when I first wrote out of the blue to them several years ago, I heard back directly from Jason Viberg, who was a laid back and helpful guy.  I even got an email back from "Mom" Viberg in answer to a question.  Those days are gone of course, and the designs have changed quite a bit, and prices have gotten too high.

no worries—their boots are good, just not »U$ 700 – U$ 900 good« … rather »U$ 200 good,« but that’s just my opinion.

 

on another note, i found this:

http://www.themilltown.com/chat-with-brett-viberg/

MT: Viberg boots are widely regarded as some of the best in the world. What is it that sets Viberg apart from the rest?

BV: What makes us special is the care and attention that goes into everything.

please shut the fuck up—i work in a small leather artisan shop that produces designer furniture (chairs) for one of the most respected companies in the world and perpetual designer/interior architect favorites. care and attention to materials, detail and final product is a basic requirement, EVERY serious manufacturer must have that. bullshit talk, boy.

 

http://www.claymoorslist.com/portfolios/viberg

Viberg boots are regarded as some of the best in the world. What makes you so special?

I think what sets us apart is that we are small enough to be able to set the bar with quality and that we are always striving to find the best components you can buy.

do they have a limited set of questions that they ask each time, upon brett viberg’s request?

 

this is probably what you have been talking about:

 

MT: What do you see for the future of Viberg?

BV: If it was just me, which it isn’t – I would continue to upgrade the quality and make Viberg into a higher luxury brand. I would make the shoes more expensive and add bags and clothing to create a very high end collection. Once you take the price out of the mix, designing gets really fun. When price is considered, you have to compromise on the quality and therefore the finished product.

there is a saying in germany: the first generation builds the company, the second one manages it, and the third one ruins it.

 

reading between the lines in regard to his father’s opinion about it:

http://www.styleforum.net/t/352981/we-talk-to-third-generation-bootmaker-brett-viberg-about-new-directions

 

Kyle (Styleforum): You mentioned your father still works the floor, what does he think of the direction you're taking with the different collaborations and stuff?  Does he think it's cool?

Guy: Yeah

Brett: Well...

Guy: I know Brett's father in a very different capacity, but I've been trying to involve him more and have been showing him some of the things we're doing.  With me, the response is totally positive. He thinks it's really cool that we're doing it.  It's outside of what he knows; he grew up in the factory because it's his father’s business.  It's been about creating the longest-wearing boot and the toughest possible boot, but now there is this switch to no longer just how tough it is, but rather how clean is it?  How refined is it?  What is the material?  What are the characteristics?  It's a paradigm shift for him, but in my dealings with him it's totally being embraced, although it's a transition.

Brett: It's a slow, slow, slow, slow transition.

I think what my dad is having trouble with is just how it's becoming more of a brand than just a shoe company about making tough stuff.  The hard transition for him is understanding that the value is in the name.  That's going to happen with anything.  If you make a good car, eventually whatever brand that is will have a particular appeal to the market and that brand name will become more important than just the quality of it.

 

but anyway, didn’t mean to hijack and rant here.

Edited October 10, 2014 by cameosis

[tod]

^ I hear all this and am with you on some of it.  Probably price is too high, probably they (or Brett at least) is getting full of himself, etc.  But as far as quality and attention to detail, I have to say that the first time I opened the box with the HH's in them, I actually laughed out loud at the quality of the boots.  They were heavy, super tight around the welt, etc, and the leather was just totally boss.  Way higher quality than any boots I had ever worn (which for 20 years up to that point had been off the shelf Chippewas, Caterpillars, and Red Wings).  With most Vibergs, put them next to a White's boot, or most any other high end workboot, and you will definitely see the difference.  Not that they are perfect -- there are certainly flaws here and there, but when they are on, they are far better than any other boot I've had, including White's and Alden in more recent years.  Whether that makes them worth $900, I have my doubts too.  But there it is...

[tmadd]

Apologies in advance that this got long...people are bringing up interesting things though, and pushing me to think really hard about why I like what I like, so lots is coming out:

 

I find this all funny because the quality of Vibergs isn't what I'd be questioning the value of, as the price increases.  It's all design stuff that would give me pause paying more than they already charge for them.  I'm not talking about simple things like just the colors, or leathers, or makeups, but more comprehensive design related stuff.  Things like how the different materials they are using on a particular boot work together, both aesthetically and functionally, stitch color/gauge/length, finishing of trims, and how different lasts and leathers on different soles work together to create silhouettes.  Maybe that level off attention to detail would be concurrent with the price hike that Brett is talking about.  I'm not ragging on this...it's just interesting to me because my own valuation of Viberg and my perception of the way many others value the brand is exclusively because the superlative build quality, sometimes even in spite of design decisions (or non-decisions) that are less than optimal. 

 

In my personal opinion, these kind of broader design details are the aspect of Whites that is responsible for me preferring their boots to Wesco and Viberg even though I'm willing to acknowledge that the cleanliness, QC, and finer detail work isn't on par with the other two (and is farther behind viberg than wesco).  At least as they come stock, and most of the time in custom make-ups, I find myself more often than not looking at a pair of Whites and just thinking to myself "that's right, that's good!"  Of course this hugely dependent on personal preference but I think it's these kind of subtleties (along with a couple obvious things, like arch ease) where Whites greatest strength relative to the other two are. 

 

I guess this also wraps around to how I feel about the Lofgrens that I'm digging right now, and also other impressive Japanese made boots I've seen before...in addition to having the material, construction, and finishing down to whatever degree the particular boot has those things.  Of course there are the obvious ways in which they excel, for instance, the shape of the Buco.  But to me, the thing that stands out to me about the best versions of these boots that I've seen before is how they manage to be an entire boot without there being anything I think should be different about them.  It doesn't necessarily always make me want that particular boot, but I usually feel like I'm looking at a great example of that kind of boot that wouldn't improve at all from addition, deletion, or modification.  That contrasts heavily for me to something like Wesco, where I am in love with the idea of the boots, and would probably love to own a pair, but small things like the gauge of stitches bug me in a way that is hard for me to articulate or quantify. 

 

An analog I can draw more thoroughly utilizes denim lines I sell at Self Edge...Sugar Cane is one of my favorite brands we carry, and a lot of different customers like it too!  I don't have anything even remotely negative to say about the craftsmanship or quality of SC products...in the 4 years I've worked at SE, I've never seen something from Toyo make it from Japan to SE and need to be sent back for QC issues.  I will say though, that when sitting on a table next to Flat Head, Roy, Iron Heart, Strike Gold, and Stevenson, all in their new state, it's tough to point out a thing about the Sugar Canes (at least the non fiber denim iterations) that is remarkable in that environment.  Yet, customers are still drawn to Sugar Cane, and often prefer them to the other available options, and on a lot of levels I do too.  My suspicion is that for a lot of people, the Sugar Canes are remarkable in that they are the only jean of the group that the customer doesn't see something they wish was slightly different about.  It could be beyond articulation, but maybe they wish the stitching on the Flat Heads was a shade less bright, or the gauge thread used on the Strike Gold's was a slimmer, or that the Iron Hearts had just a little more irregularity to them.  I don't know...this is a developing theory of mine, brought largely about by thinking about boots in this context, and I'm sharing it to facilitate discussion...but it stems from the fact that I can't recall once hearing a customer say about Sugar Canes "oh these are great in almost every way, but i just don't know if I can deal with the *insert detail that would probably seem minute to anybody but a regular superdenim reader*" and I do hear that about other brands we carry from time to time (not roy...I sadly don't get to have those in the store long enough to know how they perform under normal conditions. 

[jake431]

tmadd, this echo's my sentiments as well. But I've always explained it (to myself) as certain brands create versions of items (jeans, shoes, shirts, boots, etc) that are my platonic ideal, and it's usually NOT related 100% to cost of the item, though often there is some interrelation to quality and price.

[aho]

@John M, I have 4070H Alden's!

 

@tmadd, interesting idea there. For me, I'd agree that intrinsically/aesthetically (that is to say, something I can't put my finger on) Sugarcane and White's just feel right. No fluff or eccentricities, but beautiful in their simplicity and how they are perfect examples of what they should be. 

[Maynard Friedman]

tmadd, you veered off from boots to jeans and that's fine. You compared various aspects of those jeans and that's fine too but as a mug punter I'll give you my honest appraisal if I were to buy some jeans from Self Edge. I wear jeans with a 32" waist and I need a thigh of approx 13" (raw). For me that would probably be Sugar Cane 47s, Okis or Hawaiis OR perhaps FH 3012. I have loads of jeans but most wouldn't be available at the shop you work in. You can talk about the stitching, regularity, etc... and how that appeals to customers, but if I came to your shop, really, the key thing would be what actually fit me. My thighs are by no way freakish but I could walk into BiG and pick any number of pairs, not so in Self Edge. I know I'm in a minority and probably barking up the wrong tree etc, etc but just wanted to get it off my chest. Sometimes it's the basics rather than the minutiae that are relevant. As you were.

[itsbenhere]

I need full cuts too and my sugar cane's are great, but one of the reasons why they don't really "do" it for me is the flip side of the benefits tyler mentioned.  I think it's very true that even a seasoned customer couldn't look at sugar cane's and say "i don't like these for x reason", but (for the '47's at least) to me the negative of that is that there's nothing really different or unique about them.

 

The '47's are an incredibly solid jean, but I personally feel that one of their characteristics is that they lack distinguishing features that some might feel unnecessary or overdone, while to others they'd be the favorite part of a particular jean.  I've never noticed bright stitching on flat head's, but the fact that tyler mentioned it means some must have; what i do notice is that my 3009s give me a feeling unlike anything else and I doubt i'll find it again.  They're perfect, so much so that I'm about to pick up the 3005... I think that it's cooler to have a jean that divides opinion, because its sure to find some really strong supporters and maybe some "detractors", instead of one that everyone finds completely satisfactory.

 

I understand that the '47 is also not meant to be a jean one jizzes over (its supposed to be simple), but I'd still argue it falls into the same category as other jeans loved on this forum.  This is also a completely moot point when you consider things like the slack denim, or 50/50, but I just thought I'd throw it out there since I like this discussion!

Edited October 11, 2014 by itsbenhere

[Maynard Friedman]

Good points Ben.

We need to move this discussion elsewhere and get back to... er...footwear.

[aho]

These are boots that I like (lifted from Nicks Facebook and Insta):

Pairs sent in for repair:

[Megatron1505]

I really want a pair of Nicks oxfords, they're so pretty that I even want them with that useless Christy sole.

 

[sepp]

allsaints a\w 2008. 3 year on my leg

These are nice. Besides jeans, what pants do you pair them with?

[exaptavist]

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Edited October 9, 2015 by hoggreaser

[fre-co]

Autumn is here in the english countryside... I forgot how damn comfortable my Russell Moccasins munson boot6s are

[Megatron1505]

My issue with the christy and the 2021 is that 99% of the time is looks shit, it has zero traction in anything resembling wet of icy weather and it wears down really quickly in my experience. Plus the last shoes I had a christy sole on developed a lovely squelching spongey noise when I walked in wet weather after about 6 months of wear.

 

Also loving the discussion part of this thread at the moment, reminds me of when SuFu used to be really good five or so years ago, for newbs (as I was at the time) to learn all they needed to know.

 

Edit: Waiting time for Maynard Friedman "squelching whilst walking" gag begins now.

Edited October 11, 2014 by Megatron1505

[exaptavist]

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Edited October 9, 2015 by hoggreaser

[Megatron1505]

I think it was the material to be honest, after a while it became really porous....maybe it was a dodgy batch or something...who knows?

[exaptavist]

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Edited October 9, 2015 by hoggreaser

[Projectp]

My issue with the christy and the 2021 is that 99% of the time is looks shit, it has zero traction in anything resembling wet of icy weather and it wears down really quickly in my experience. Plus the last shoes I had a christy sole on developed a lovely squelching spongey noise when I walked in wet weather after about 6 months of wear.

 

I own a pair of Chippewa's Oxford shoe with the Christy sole and have had a nearly identical experience. After the new sole sheen wore off the sole now always looks kind of dirty despite my best cleaning efforts. I've had the shoes about a year and only wear them a few days a week while in the office, but I feel like I've already lost a considerable amount of the sole to wear. And I couldn't describe the sound they make when wet any better than a "squelching spongey noise."

[Megatron1505]

I believe that one certain builds the sole works perfectly from an aesthetic point of view, but in a practical sense it's fairly awful.

[tod]

Speaking of work oxfords, here are two that I have coveted recently:

 

Rolling Dub Trio's Coupen boot:

 

 

 

 

And W&Anchor Bros workshoe:

 

 

 

if the RDT's were available from a reliable seller in a 9.5 or 10, I would certainly have bought them by now.  The Wanker Bros I came close to ordering, but finally balked at the wide and light welt, going for the Indy boots instead for my current brown boot/shoe.

Edited October 11, 2014 by tod

[exaptavist]

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Edited October 9, 2015 by hoggreaser

[JohnM]

tmadd, you veered off from boots to jeans and that's fine. You compared various aspects of those jeans and that's fine too but as a mug punter I'll give you my honest appraisal if I were to buy some jeans from Self Edge. I wear jeans with a 32" waist and I need a thigh of approx 13" (raw). For me that would probably be Sugar Cane 47s, Okis or Hawaiis OR perhaps FH 3012. I have loads of jeans but most wouldn't be available at the shop you work in. You can talk about the stitching, regularity, etc... and how that appeals to customers, but if I came to your shop, really, the key thing would be what actually fit me. My thighs are by no way freakish but I could walk into BiG and pick any number of pairs, not so in Self Edge. I know I'm in a minority and probably barking up the wrong tree etc, etc but just wanted to get it off my chest. Sometimes it's the basics rather than the minutiae that are relevant. As you were.

 

I agree Maynard, fit is king when it comes to jeans.  I bought my first few pairs at Self Edge San Francisco (Iron Heart and 3Sixteen+) and get in there regularly, working with Young, Craig, Kiya, and Eugene (just bought a Wild Child wallet and love the thing).  But the jeans rises are low-to-moderate and I'm a high rise guy, so many of the lines that BiG carries (e.g., Full Count, Samurai, Warehouse) work better for me.  If I ever wear through what I already have, a pair of higher rise Sugar Canes from SE might be a nice addition.

 

Regarding shoes, I was in the Alden Shop in SF yesterday and picked up a pair of 403 Indy Chromexcels, a step up from my much loved Red Wing Chukkas.  Top notch service from long time Manager Jim Smith, by the way.  Everything that good stores used to be.  Yeah, I'm old  ;-)

 

https://www.aldenshop.com/Store/DrawProducts.aspx?CategoryID=163&ParentID=4&PageID=&Action=

 

John

[tod]

/\ Mate, I have been looking at those RDT for ages, mentioned them a few times here but there's been scant interest and only recently a bit over at Denimbro. They're available in a pretty decent rough out as well. All over google images, nice evo pics. The owner of RDT / Craft Bank, Katsuya Tokunaga, was quite responsive when I e-mailed him. 

 

I try to avoid goodyear welted as far as possible, but the RDT Coupen are one of the few that I like to admire. The Teddy I believe is stitchdown, which I find preferable.

 

edit - oh, the RDT Coupen do come in a US 9.5 by the way. Largest size available, but only a few retailers had any left when I last looked.

 

I saw that they theoretically come in a 9.5, but can't actually find any of that size for sale.  I sent Craftbank an email about a year ago I gues inquiring and got a friendly by fairly garbled message back in English, saying basically if you transfer the money to this long-numbered bank acct I will send the boots. When I wrote  back for some clarification I never heard another peep...  But really some great mid-cut boots.

 

The Japanese brand Slow Wear Lion (what is the deal with these names..?!) also has some nice work oxfords, though not quite like RDT.

 

Finally, here's a recent entry by the Taiwanese store Mansway (!):

 

[bod]

My new Trickers

 

[exaptavist]

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Edited October 9, 2015 by hoggreaser

[exaptavist]

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[exaptavist]

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Edited October 9, 2015 by hoggreaser