Denim - Fiscal Sense Thread

[mrman]

Well, I could argue further that it isn't that simple any way you look at it; ethics vs cost, ethics vs quality, cost vs quality,... There may be a correlation but just as well there might not be one

[ColonelAngus]

10 hours ago, dudewuttheheck said:

Exactly. For me, the ethics of production are not the biggest concern. It's more about the reasoning behind the brand's decision that matters most. I would prefer them to make decisions based on trying to make the best product rather than trying to save money. However, I know that I can't make all my purchasing decisions based entirely on this.

for me it's a combination of ethics and transparency. I'd be a hypocrite if I said none of my clothing comes from third world countries, but my tastes have gotten a little more refined than 2 yrs ago and thus, I try to only buy from companies who either have a history of making quality garments, like Japanese denim companies, or those that try to keep production local. I've used Taylor Stitch as an example before but to me their business model sums it up perfectly. They started out with the MiUSA messaging and with time they started outsourcing to Portugal. Now, i'm sure part of this decision was probably because they had grown signficantly in the past 2-3 yrs and needed a production facility that could keep up with demand. But, you can't help but wonder if it was also a move to save money. If it's the former I can understand, but if it's the latter then it would put me off their brand completely.

Keeping things local means keeping jobs here and the economy flowing, but at the same time, if those few production facilities here in the US aren't making quality garments then I can see why people would gravitate towards Japanese brands.

[JDelage]

5 hours ago, UkeNo said:

So you don't mind them being 'unethical'...

Define "unethical" please.

[JDelage]

When one buys clothes from a 3rd world country they help people graduate from life-threatening poverty to dire poverty, a huge gain. Hard to call that unethical.

[ShootThePier]

I think what we're seeing right now, right here, that at this price point, it is more than quality that is important to many of us.

To me, I see an additional aspect to the Portugal theme. Japan has a denim scene based upon reproduction, quality, and a dedication to repro that goes so far as to not improve on past mistakes. Overall that speaks to me of dedication, discipline, and patience. The same as an Italian sports car, tobacco from Pinar del Rio, or German high performance sedan.

Maybe I'm fooling myself...

Edited April 24, 2017 by ShootThePier

[Foxy2]

On 24.04.2017 at 4:58 PM, ColonelAngus said:

...

Keeping things local means keeping jobs here and the economy flowing, but at the same time, if those few production facilities here in the US aren't making quality garments then I can see why people would gravitate towards Japanese brands.

that last part is something that I quite often run into in my actual job: the risk and cost of local production.

it's nice to have local manufacturers, but the reality is that quality raw materials are not always readily available and might need to be imported or come with delays at higher costs. often smaller local manufacturers can be inflexible on minimums and unreliable when it comes to meeting deadlines. inconsistent quality can lead to higher costs, more defect goods and lower output.

these are valid concerns for growing brands - similar to higher production cost in, say, Portugal combined with additional import costs meet more flexibilty on minimum volumes, on-time deliveries, better product quailty, easier/more professional communication/sampling, more flexibility on re-orders, less b-grades/defect goods - this might just turn out more cost efficient than trying to keep it local.

there are lots of aspects that contribute to the overall sourcing decissions and total cost.

last not least, brands might want to grow (more) in oversea markets vs. domestic market growth. a tough, saturated American market can mean a slim margin vs. a more comfortable margin in Europe or Japan/Asia.

Edited June 13, 2017 by Foxy2

[ShootThePier]

14 minutes ago, JDelage said:

Define "unethical" please.

That is a can of worms. Part of me wants to open it up, the other part of me knows better.

I'm already arguing with myself. Thst said, what is "more" ethical? Loyalty to a retailer vs a few retailers, or loyalty to retailer vs the end user? How about demanding certain online retailers raise their prices when that retailers costs have not increased?

[ColonelAngus]

34 minutes ago, JDelage said:

When one buys clothes from a 3rd world country they help people graduate from life-threatening poverty to dire poverty, a huge gain. Hard to call that unethical.

poverty is poverty any way you cut it. For me ethics has to do with a combination of things, such as liveable wages and work safety. I can't help but think of factory workers that have died because of a building collapse or whatever. I'm speaking in broad terms and many of the companies we buy from don't apply here, but I can't in good conscience support anyone that has little regard for its workers or has poor working conditions. I think the denim companies we support know this and think it's equally important that their clothing is ethically made. I know a lot of you probably dislike N&F but they own their own production facility and their stuff is made in Canada. Rgt, Freenote Cloth & 3sixteen has their stuff made in California from what I gather.

[dudewuttheheck]

6 hours ago, UkeNo said:

So you don't mind them being 'unethical', as long as the company doesn't save money or make a bad quality product? 

I find this odd? I'm sure this wasn't exactly what you were implying but still, you prefer quality of goods over ethics? 

If I knew for sure that a brand was being unethical, then yes I would. My point is that it is actually very difficult for us to know this information. Not only that, but the ethics rabbit hole is so deep that we could never get to the end. What about the raw materials? Are those produced and procured ethically? I doubt we could know that.

It is practically impossible to know that any garment you own is made ethically from start to finish.

[garsag]

Some more insight into Livid jeans' commitment to transparency: https://www.denimhunters.com/transparency-livid-jeans/

Also including a 15 minute long video that is worth a watch!

[aho]

Slightly off topic, but I always question many a brand's usage of "Navajo" prints per the Indian Arts and Crafts Act: https://www.doi.gov/iacb/act

Always irks me when I see "Navajo" shirts, etc. when it's pretty evident the fabric wasn't made by Navajo craftsmen.

[Cucoo]

I agree that it's not okay to "abuse" Indian crafts in this way, I just guess it's hard to impossible to enforce this on a world wide basis...

 

Edit: thinking about it, if it's possible for Parmesan or Champagne and similar products to be protected the way they are it should be possible with Native crafts, probably an issue of the lobbying involved? 

Edited June 12, 2017 by Cucoo

[chicote]

Funny you mention that act—I was just reading this morning about its use in a lawsuit against a company selling "Hopi ear candles". The Hopi have never used anything remotely resembling an "ear candle", but still had to fight for three years to get the company producing them to stop using their name in its marketing.

On the note of the shirts you mentioned, I've always thought it weird to see first nations' fabrics and patterns on western-styled shirts in general. They look so out of place!

[bartlebyyphonics]

33 minutes ago, chicote said:

Funny you mention that act—I was just reading this morning about its use in a lawsuit against a company selling "Hopi ear candles". The Hopi have never used anything remotely resembling an "ear candle", but still had to fight for three years to get the company producing them to stop using their name in its marketing.

On the note of the shirts you mentioned, I've always thought it weird to see first nations' fabrics and patterns on western-styled shirts in general. They look so out of place!

Assemblage of the western-style with the assimilated...

an example from 1934

Louise Massey, Milt Mabie & co. w. some choice navajo themed chaps...

[an image I found whilst searching for 20s fit pix that seems appropriate here... from 'How the West was Worn']

[mikecch]

6 hours ago, Cucoo said:

I agree that it's not okay to "abuse" Indian crafts in this way, I just guess it's hard to impossible to enforce this on a world wide basis...

 

Edit: thinking about it, if it's possible for Parmesan or Champagne and similar products to be protected the way they are it should be possible with Native crafts, probably an issue of the lobbying involved? 

 

I can't see this happening here in Australia or Asia in general. Outside of North America, there's not enough money involved in this type of goods for people to care, and people tend not to spend much time thinking about racial or indigenous cultural issues unless it affects them directly. 

Italian cheese and French wine, however, I'd argue transcends cultural and national boundaries nowadays and are true global commodities with huge amounts of money and vested interests involved. 

[Foxy2]

20 hours ago, aho said:

....

oops - wrong quote...here's the right one by garsag:

Some more insight into Livid jeans' commitment to transparency: https://www.denimhunters.com/transparency-livid-jeans/

Also including a 15 minute long video that is worth a watch!

...

 

Love the way they do things - wish I could support them more, but tapered jeans and tiny shirt collars are not for me...

Edited June 13, 2017 by Foxy2

[Cold Summer]

LOL, what is "MILT"? "Men In Leather Trousers?" 

[garsag]

7 hours ago, Foxy2 said:

oops - wrong quote...here's the right one by garsag:

Some more insight into Livid jeans' commitment to transparency: https://www.denimhunters.com/transparency-livid-jeans/

Also including a 15 minute long video that is worth a watch!

...

 

Love the way they do things - wish I could support them more, but tapered jeans and tiny shirt collars are not for me...

Same for me. I actually live in the same town where their headquarters are, and I think everything they have done for both the local community and their producers/suppliers etc. is great, but their designs are just not for me. Too bad, really, as I want to support them more than I do.

[Foxy2]

3 hours ago, Cold Summer said:

LOL, what is "MILT"? "Men In Leather Trousers?" 

Milt(on) Mabie = MILT

Edited June 13, 2017 by Foxy2