Denim - Fiscal Sense Thread

[Iron Horse]

6 hours ago, JDelage said:

Do you see the difference between a factory that respects a contract that includes provisions that would be below our Western standards (on pay, work hours, conditions, etc), and one that simply doesn't respect the contract?

I do, but I wonder how many brands will give us that kind of transparency. And like Shoot said, you don't want to be involved in anything that gives you pause, if you can help it.

Edited March 17, 2017 by Iron Horse

[JDelage]

Good article on Heddels: https://www.heddels.com/2017/04/of-price-and-yen-the-effects-of-japanese-retailers-selling-abroad/

[dudewuttheheck]

I think the tarnishing of the MiUSA image is definitely a cause for concern for many US and potential future brands in this industry. Personally, I only own 1 single item that was made in the USA that was not made by 1 single Craftsman. That is my Freenote Cloth Mackinaw which I bought for 3 reasons: 

1. Its quite a unique item and fits the California climate perfectly.

2. I got it for a great price.

3. It was purchased at Inspiration and my fiance fell in love with it on me so how could I not?

Otherwise, I don't own made in USA items. I think one of my MFSC pants are USA made, but  I'm not 100% sure and either way, that's the only other one. I honestly don't think US made items are worth it in terms of design, materials, and construction vs. Japanese companies. Why would I buy 3sixteen or Rgt when for not much more, I can get what likely be a more unique and better made item from a Japanese brand? Heck, some of my Freewheelers shirts cost less than 3sixteen or Rgt shirts! 

I buy MiUSA when it is a single Craftsman, however. I own or have on order Masterson's, Role Club, WH Ranch, Hollows, and Roy. The appeal here is not the USA part, but the fact that one single, passionate, talented person is making the item and if they were from China, I'd still buy from them. It's not the geography that matters there. I'll throw Himel into this as well. He employs only a couple of sewers, pays them well, has incredible designs, and has quality on par with Japanese brands in my personal experience.

On principle I will not buy from brands like Indigofera who are based in Sweden, but manufacture in Portugal. I think many of the Japanese brands will survive and proven, passionate labels like Role Club, Himel, Roy, etc will continue to do well also. As much as I am not a fan, I'm sure 3sixteen and Rgt will last quite some time as well because they have established names now. I just doubt anyone like them will be able to get to their level from the US.

With Japan, it's different. They perfected denim construction and the modern raw denim market before the US did and will always have that going for them. Japan tends to have more unique fabrics, designs, and goals. PBJ, Flat Head, Freewheelers, and Conner's are more unique from each other than the range of US brands are, even including the 1 man brands. I still sometimes confuse Rgt and 3sixteen products for each other's at times.

Also, Japanese brands are revelling in the denim culture explosion that is still happening in southeast Asia right now and that trend could explode in other places as well, we don't know. I don't think the US brands are benefitting as much from that as Japanese brands are.

Edited April 19, 2017 by dudewuttheheck

[mrman]

Interesting topic. I've got a few things from both RgT and 3sixteen, mainly because they are made to fit western body types, not because I think that they are superior. At 6'3" it is quite difficult at times to find fitting Japanese clothing but still I've been moving steadily in that direction.

What's interesting is that I've noticed a trend on ig that many buy only US-made stuff and swear that you could not find anything better. I get it that you'd like to support your local industry but overlooking everything that is made elsewhere is kind of weird, imho.  Besides making claims like that when you have only experience on US made clothes is plain stupid.

[mikecch]

15 hours ago, JDelage said:

Good article on Heddels: https://www.heddels.com/2017/04/of-price-and-yen-the-effects-of-japanese-retailers-selling-abroad/

This article is interesting and raises some good points.

I do feel like one very important point warrants further discussion, and that's the idea that Japanese brands rely on their Western stockists to promote the 'culture' and values of denim. This was certainly a very important aspect of the initial rise of Japanese denim out West in the early 2000s, though I think with the ever increasing importance of the internet and social media in our lives (and the frequency in which affluent young people travel around the world) the local brick & mortar stores are in some ways less relevant even just a decade on.

My own views are a bit skewed of course, as I'd "learned" most of this hobby via the Internet. Anybody who might be interested in Japanese denim only need to spend a couple of days reading some of this forum, binge on a couple of blogs, and then contact the Japanese brands and stores directly via Instagram - for the dedicated and enthusiastic, basic "denim education" can be had digitally without necessarily accessing brick & mortar shops (although that would be helpful.) 

For the regulars on this forum I highly doubt that local shops are all that important to us personally in terms of actually acquiring pieces that we want, although I'm all for supporting them and helping to grow the hobby locally.

Stores such as Denimio and Okayama can (and do) spread the culture of Japanese denim far more widely and effectively compared with Western stores who don't have dedicated PR/media staff. These guys can help the hobby achieve awareness digitally at a scale that physical traffic to a brick & mortar store can never match.

For B&M stores to be successful, they must offer something more than just a space to try out jeans or having shop keepers who know a denim fact or two.

[Cold Summer]

6 hours ago, mrman said:

Interesting topic. I've got a few things from both RgT and 3sixteen, mainly because they are made to fit western body types, not because I think that they are superior. At 6'3" it is quite difficult at times to find fitting Japanese clothing but still I've been moving steadily in that direction.

Exactly the same thing in my case, 3Sixteen shirts/jeans and RGT outerwear fit me just right. Japanese brands don't. For me, it really comes down to that. Right now the only Japanese stuff I still own/use are a pair of Samurai S710s, Flat Head denim shirt and heavyweight flannel, and two pairs of sneakers from FH/RJB. These are all great, but every one of those were things I bought in Japan, either in person or where I could conveniently return the stuff if it didn't fit. 

Although another important part for me is that I've drifted away from wanting to look like a Japanese motorcyclist or anachronistic 1930s blue-collar worker. The still vintage-inspired but more contemporary edge of the aforementioned brands really suits me a lot better than most of what the popular Japanese brands are making.

anklspr, I've heard that story before, but I'm not convinced. Vintage was a very hot trend in the 90s but there is still a very dedicated community of people buying this stuff in Japan. From my own experience in the industry, I can tell you that in at least one case, what was being sold to Western/foreign retailers was a very small slice (no more than 10%) of their revenue, 90% of which was in Japan.

 

[Foxy2]

would have to agree - SE & BiG single-handedly saving the Japanese denim scene with 2-5 stores/distribution networks in North America only - this seems highly implausable...especially, given the price-sensitive US market to drive any impactful volumes.

[ColonelAngus]

10 minutes ago, Cold Summer said:

Exactly the same thing in my case, 3Sixteen shirts/jeans and RGT outerwear fit me just right. Japanese brands don't. For me, it really comes down to that. Right now the only Japanese stuff I still own/use are a pair of Samurai S710s, Flat Head denim shirt and heavyweight flannel, and two pairs of sneakers from FH/RJB. These are all great, but every one of those were things I bought in Japan, either in person or where I could conveniently return the stuff if it didn't fit. 

 

I agree. US denim companies make stuff that fits me, for the most part, whereas, IH is the only Japanese maker that seems to make clothing that fits Westerners. In my very limited experience, i'd pour over fit charts from various Japanese denim companies and the fits are weird, which is why i've hesitated buying from more Japanese brands. I actually don't have many Japanese brands represented in my closet -- I have a pair of TSG's that I never wear, an SDA flannel, 2 PBJ type II's and 2 IH tops. Everything else is US made. To me fit reigns supreme and I don't care how cool the fabric is for any given piece of clothing....if it doesn't fit me then i'm wasting my money.

 

[Iron Horse]

14 minutes ago, ColonelAngus said:

I agree. US denim companies make stuff that fits me, for the most part, whereas, IH is the only Japanese maker that seems to make clothing that fits Westerners. In my very limited experience, i'd pour over fit charts from various Japanese denim companies and the fits are weird, which is why i've hesitated buying from more Japanese brands. I actually don't have many Japanese brands represented in my closet -- I have a pair of TSG's that I never wear, an SDA flannel, 2 PBJ type II's and 2 IH tops. Everything else is US made. To me fit reigns supreme and I don't care how cool the fabric is for any given piece of clothing....if it doesn't fit me then i'm wasting my money.

 

Music to my ears guys; I think you'll be pleased by my chambray shirt when it's available around June.

[mikecch]

I wrote a thing, a commentary to Heddels' commentary if you like.

https://indigoshrimp.wordpress.com/2017/04/20/the-effects-of-japanese-retailers-selling-abroad-a-hobbyists-perspective/

 

[Cucoo]

The "b&m needs to educate consumers on our unique and honorable company tradition" argument is really pretentious. To me, b&m needs to be able to tell me what size I need to get and if and how fit will change once you wash a piece. Sure, they also should be denim nerds you can geek out about something with, but I think in "our" field that goes without saying. Shopping at R&H is great not because they told me stuff you can read online, but because I could talk about what fit I want from a jacket and what size to get to achieve that. Even when buying from the webshop they'll shoot you a short email to confirm size. Same for SE, Kiya is always spot on in sizing advice even only over email.

33 minutes ago, ColonelAngus said:

I agree. US denim companies make stuff that fits me, for the most part, whereas, IH is the only Japanese maker that seems to make clothing that fits Westerners. In my very limited experience, i'd pour over fit charts from various Japanese denim companies and the fits are weird, which is why i've hesitated buying from more Japanese brands. I actually don't have many Japanese brands represented in my closet -- I have a pair of TSG's that I never wear, an SDA flannel, 2 PBJ type II's and 2 IH tops. Everything else is US made. To me fit reigns supreme and I don't care how cool the fabric is for any given piece of clothing....if it doesn't fit me then i'm wasting my money.

(Not trying to counter your argument in any way) Personally, I'm a westerner but I don't really have a problem with Japanese sizing at all... sure, my Samurai shirts may be sizes L and XL and fit like an M, and SDA t-shirts may say M and fit like a S. Just saying that there is a market for Japanese sizes in the Western world, but of course, experiences differ   It's just one (the only?) area where being not really tall works out as an advantage

[ColonelAngus]

12 minutes ago, Cucoo said:

(Not trying to counter your argument in any way) Personally, I'm a westerner but I don't really have a problem with Japanese sizing at all... sure, my Samurai shirts may be sizes L and XL and fit like an M, and SDA t-shirts may say M and fit like a S. Just saying that there is a market for Japanese sizes in the Western world, but of course, experiences differ   It's just one (the only?) area where being not really tall works out as an advantage

I think the confusion for customers is that sizing for a lot of Japanese brands seems to typically be 1 size smaller than their US counterparts. For example, my SDA flannel is an xl but it fits me like a US large. Again, I have very limited experience but my IH shirts are size large and fit me like my other size larges from US makers. I realize that my personal fit experience only makes up a small fraction of customers and that B&M stores do try and get companies to make bigger sizes (as Danny from R&H mentioned in another thread).

[mrman]

1 hour ago, ColonelAngus said:

To me fit reigns supreme and I don't care how cool the fabric is for any given piece of clothing....if it doesn't fit me then i'm wasting my money.

 

It goes without saying that they should fit. With japanese makers it is a bit risky but because the fabrics are so much more interesting than with the western counterparts I'm still inclined to try. When you compare eg PBJ denim to, say, RgT, the difference in staggering.

[Foxy2]

1 hour ago, anklspr said:

From 2010: http://www.styleforum.net/t/192335/kiya-babzani-of-self-edge-on-japanese-denim-internet-forums-and-more

Styleforum: Two-part question for you. You obviously work with some very small companies, and you do a of collaborations with them. How much do you think Self Edge has done for the growth of those companies by exposing them to the North American and European markets? Second, how vital was/is internet forums to this growth, both of the brands and of Self Edge? And I guess that brings up a third part--do you ever worry that internet hype will come back to bite you in the ass? 
Kiya: I wish the answer wasn't as sad as it sounds. But the reality of it is that these companies were hot in Asia for about 10 years, and that period ended in the mid to late 90s, so when we came along and said "we want to sell your products to the rest of the world," we didn't increase their overall production, we just prevented it from going down. I've said this before, but many of these companies (and not just the ones carried at Self Edge) are on the brink of closing up shop for good due to financial troubles. I know for a fact that if it weren't for the numbers we move, a couple of companies we deal with would no longer exist today, and that's also true for labels we don't carry which were picked up by other stores outside of Japan. I won't deny that message boards had a lot to do with the brand growth, because in the end having a thread dedicated to one brand and having consumers go back and forth about the brand is a great way to get the name and product out there, this isn't a secret.

yeah, I remember that vaguely...

it begs the questions:

Hot in Asia - Japan only? Asia incl. Japan? Asia excl. Japan?

Which brands were referred to: TFH, SC, IH? FC, WH, Samurai, SDA and PJB were mostly/exclusively with BiG...also, not sure which brands were distributed globally by SE? (Take5 probably covered HK, Thailand, Taiwan around 2010.)

I'm not saying certain Japanese brands were not in trouble in the mid ot end 1990's (in Japan or Asia?) and SE did a great part in helping them through that rough patch and did an awful lot of promoting Japanese brands - but maybe Kiya can clarify that for us...
 

Edited April 20, 2017 by Foxy2

[ColonelAngus]

33 minutes ago, mrman said:

It goes without saying that they should fit. With japanese makers it is a bit risky but because the fabrics are so much more interesting than with the western counterparts I'm still inclined to try. When you compare eg PBJ denim to, say, RgT, the difference in staggering.

I don't own jeans from either brand because their fits are too skinny. I'm sure PBJ denim is more interesting but I think this is why you see brands like Rgt and 3sixteen using Japanese denim milled exclusively for them rather than Cone Mills denim.

[Max Power]

2 hours ago, mikecch said:

I wrote a thing, a commentary to Heddels' commentary if you like.

https://indigoshrimp.wordpress.com/2017/04/20/the-effects-of-japanese-retailers-selling-abroad-a-hobbyists-perspective/

 

That was a pleasure to read, thank you

[dudewuttheheck]

I guess I'm just lucky that most Japanese clothing fits me very well. I have to take out the darting on a couple of RJB shirts, but otherwise it's no issue.

[ColonelAngus]

14 hours ago, dudewuttheheck said:

I think the tarnishing of the MiUSA image is definitely a cause for concern for many US and potential future brands in this industry. Personally, I only own 1 single item that was made in the USA that was not made by 1 single Craftsman. That is my Freenote Cloth Mackinaw which I bought for 3 reasons: 

1. Its quite a unique item and fits the California climate perfectly.

2. I got it for a great price.

3. It was purchased at Inspiration and my fiance fell in love with it on me so how could I not?

Otherwise, I don't own made in USA items. I think one of my MFSC pants are USA made, but  I'm not 100% sure and either way, that's the only other one. I honestly don't think US made items are worth it in terms of design, materials, and construction vs. Japanese companies. Why would I buy 3sixteen or Rgt when for not much more, I can get what likely be a more unique and better made item from a Japanese brand? Heck, some of my Freewheelers shirts cost less than 3sixteen or Rgt shirts! 

I buy MiUSA when it is a single Craftsman, however. I own or have on order Masterson's, Role Club, WH Ranch, Hollows, and Roy. The appeal here is not the USA part, but the fact that one single, passionate, talented person is making the item and if they were from China, I'd still buy from them. It's not the geography that matters there. I'll throw Himel into this as well. He employs only a couple of sewers, pays them well, has incredible designs, and has quality on par with Japanese brands in my personal experience.

On principle I will not buy from brands like Indigofera who are based in Sweden, but manufacture in Portugal. I think many of the Japanese brands will survive and proven, passionate labels like Role Club, Himel, Roy, etc will continue to do well also. As much as I am not a fan, I'm sure 3sixteen and Rgt will last quite some time as well because they have established names now. I just doubt anyone like them will be able to get to their level from the US.

With Japan, it's different. They perfected denim construction and the modern raw denim market before the US did and will always have that going for them. Japan tends to have more unique fabrics, designs, and goals. PBJ, Flat Head, Freewheelers, and Conner's are more unique from each other than the range of US brands are, even including the 1 man brands. I still sometimes confuse Rgt and 3sixteen products for each other's at times.

Also, Japanese brands are revelling in the denim culture explosion that is still happening in southeast Asia right now and that trend could explode in other places as well, we don't know. I don't think the US brands are benefitting as much from that as Japanese brands are.

I see your point but don't know that I could stick to the single craftsman rule. I agree that there are a lot of makers out there doing things by themselves that are quite successful at what they do, but for me it's about variety, and whether or not a company has 1 employee versus 10 makes no difference. I've found that quality can be subjective with anything we buy. For example, a lot of people swear by Filson's bags, but if I was in the market for one i'd likely buy from Vermilyea Pelle. Also, I know a lot of people swear by Ashland Leather but a couple years ago I bought a shell cordovan front pocket wallet from them and it looked like it was sewn by a blind man who didn't know how to put a wallet together. The edges weren't beveled/waxed and a piece of the leather was folded over on itself when it should've been cut/aligned/sewn correctly. I was pretty pissed about that and will never buy a wallet from them again. Red Moon and TFH make nice looking leather goods but I can't justify the price tag, so from an affordable viewpoint Guarded Goods, Tanner Goods or First Settlement Goods (Context Clothing's in-house leather brand) make nice looking stuff.

I never understood the appeal of Indigofera, but some people like their stuff so whatever. I do agree that if they're selling goods at a premium but manufacturing in Portugal it instantly puts me off. It's the same with Taylor Stitch, who upon starting their company drew people in with their MiUSA pitch but are now outsourcing a lot of their stuff to Portugal. I like some of their stuff but don't think I could buy anything from them unless it was on steep discount. I find TS's scenario more aggravating because MiUSA was why customers supported them and now they've taken a corporate approach and are outsourcing overseas.

[mrman]

49 minutes ago, ColonelAngus said:

I don't own jeans from either brand because their fits are too skinny. I'm sure PBJ denim is more interesting but I think this is why you see brands like Rgt and 3sixteen using Japanese denim milled exclusively for them rather than Cone Mills denim.

I wouldn't call xx-003 skinny, it's regular staight and strider has a slight taper. Of course fit is subjective but after decades of squatting my thighs are not the smallest and neither fit pantyhoselike.

Haven't handled their exclusive denim so can't comment on that.

[JDelage]

What do you all have against Portugal? Is the quality not there?

[ShootThePier]

3 hours ago, Foxy2 said:

would have to agree - SE & BiG single-handedly saving the Japanese denim scene with 2-5 stores/distribution networks in North America only - this seems highly implausable...especially, given the price-sensitive US market to drive any impactful volumes.

AND, the limited numbers of any item each Japanese manufacturer produces.

Do the math. How many pieces does SE carry of a manufacturer? How often are their new releases? Split SE inventory between 5 stores and online? Consider the mark-up mentioned by Giles.

If SE's volume is make or break for a brand, I would have to say that brand is still in danger.

Concerning BIG, they have become irrelevant, nearly impossible to find availability, in all denim. If they are trying to hold brands hostage to having other outlets raise prices, they should at least have inventory once the prices have been increased. Fail!

Whatever happened in the past is past. PBJ should not tie their future to a couple of shops that helped them when they were smaller. The shops carry many other brands.

I still say a PBJ started digging their own grave when they forced OD and Denimio. They still have time to stop digging, but it sounds like they are going to start using bigger shovels.

[ColonelAngus]

26 minutes ago, mrman said:

I wouldn't call xx-003 skinny, it's regular staight and strider has a slight taper. Of course fit is subjective but after decades of squatting my thighs are not the smallest and neither fit pantyhoselike.

Haven't handled their exclusive denim so can't comment on that.

i'm basing my response on the fit charts i've seen from both companies. Either the thigh/knees are too skinny or the hem is too big. I need something that has a good thigh/knee/hem ratio that doesn't look silly on me.

[ColonelAngus]

16 minutes ago, JDelage said:

What do you all have against Portugal? Is the quality not there?

i'm speculating here but I think some people are opposed to Portuguese made stuff because they want their goods to be sourced locally, which translates to jobs and a more robust economy. I know nothing about the labor practices of Portugal but my assumption is they don't pay their workers a decent wage. I'm being ignorant on this issue but my opinion stands because why would a company like Taylor Stitch outsource to Portugal if it wasn't to save money on manufacturing costs? Same goes for Indigofera. It could be that there isn't enough skilled labor in the the US or Sweden for that matter but with the rise in popularity in handmade goods I find find that argument implausible.

[mrman]

I'd like to remind that Portugal is in EU and that already is a guarantee that the working conditions and wages are not what they might be in an Indian sweatshop. The wages are not as high as in Sweden and probably somewhat lower than in the US but still decent when compared to prices of goods there.

I already commented on the fact of buying only locally (where ever that is) made stuff. Of course it's up to the individual if they want to limit their choices.

[dudewuttheheck]

I have a problem with it because clearly the motivation behind it is to save money over anything else. If the company was based in Portugal, it's fine, but if the company really cared, they would make it locally or perhaps outsource to a place known to be better at making the clothing. This is what High Grade US Standard did. They outsourced to Ooe Yofukuten so they could have the best quality possible. Brands that outsource to Portugal are doing so to save money, but not receive the 'Made in China' stigma.

 

I can't stick to the single Craftsman thing either. I just prefer it. I generally prefer smaller or single person companies because the passion seems to be even higher with them than with 'brands.' It's not s hard and fast rule that I have, just a preference.

To be clear, the two labels that I own the most items from are Flat Head/RJB and Freewheelers so I know that sticking to that ideal is impossible, but those 2 are at least Japanese brands where I feel the quality is higher.

Edited April 20, 2017 by dudewuttheheck

[Cucoo]

5 hours ago, JDelage said:

What do you all have against Portugal? Is the quality not there?

I've been wondering the same thing. Portugal is EU and right next to Spain, shouldn't it be at least a step up from, like, LVC made in Turkey or something? I have done zero research but I don't see why Portugal should be seen as a red flag, especially since own several made in Spain boots that are top quality. 

[JDelage]

Many of the reasons given above don't make sense, once you spend a little time thinking about it. Personally, as long as quality and quality control are there, I'm willing to consider all options.

[garden gnomes in space]

I think it makes perfect sense.  A Swedish brand making stuff in Portugal is doing it for one reason:  labor costs. I seriously doubt they could not do it locally, the price would just probably be more than most would be willing to pay.   Im not knocking IF, they are a small brand and have to do what they have to do.  For me, knowing that manufacturing got farmed out to a cheaper source would be and is enough to put me off.  In this niche market I reserve that right to be incredibly picky and choosy with what I buy and who gets my money.  Im not ignorant to the fact that most of my standard wardrobe is possibly made in squalid shit conditions, thats unfortunately the reality we live in, and I do as much as I can to avoid supporting brands that have sweatshops.  But when it comes to denim and leather and the absurd, I like local sourced stuff.  Now, if there was a Portuguese denim brand making dope denim shit, then it would not be a thing for me.  

 

I feel the same way about LVC made in Turkey.  The quality is probably fine but it just rubs me the wrong way because its a cost of labor thing.  

Leica is rumored (rumored, I have nothing other than the articles I have read to back this up) to make the majority of their bodies in Portugal and then assemble and stamp Made in Germany on them and charge a premium.  if that is true thats fucked up.  

 

And dont be tricked by this Pitti Uomo Italian bullshit either.  Made in Italy means made by Eastern Europeans and Africans who get paid a lot less, not some grizzled old Italian who has been a shoemaker for 100 years.    As recent as 2 years ago NGO's found EU labor laws not being followed or enforced.  Its the same here in USA, just substitute Chinese and Mexicans

 

Edited April 20, 2017 by garden gnomes in space

[Foxy2]

The 2 main reasons for producing in Portugal in the companies I worked/work for have always been:

- top quality and special skills/products at flexible minimums

- short lead times and logistic routes (quick replenishment)

producing in Italy, Turkey or Portugal is expensive and usually top quality. The higher cost can make sense for European brands if calculated against the logistic cost and time. These regions have excellent infrastructure to offer.

regarding the nationality of the machine operators - this is a well known aspect in the industry and it depends on each brand how much involved they are in regards to social compliance. Don't forget that Japan used to have a serious issue with "Chinese Trainees". From what I hear it still is...

Edited April 21, 2017 by Foxy2

[dudewuttheheck]

3 hours ago, Cucoo said:

I've been wondering the same thing. Portugal is EU and right next to Spain, shouldn't it be at least a step up from, like, LVC made in Turkey or something? I have done zero research but I don't see why Portugal should be seen as a red flag, especially since own several made in Spain boots that are top quality. 

I have boots from Spain as well (Carmina) and they are indeed excellent.

Seem people are not understanding my reasons for not supporting Indigofera.

Did anyone notice that I didn't say anything about the actual quality of the product? Although, I am of the belief that certain brands and countries (Japan specifically) do in general produce a better product.

At least @garden gnomes in space gets it.

Edited April 21, 2017 by dudewuttheheck