Unknown Non-Japanese Brands

[Megatron1505]

Due to the recent talk in the Unknown Japanese Brands thread about some of the Chinese brands (and Maynard moaning like a small girl), I thought it might be best for them to have their own discussion thread (and brands from other countries).

 

Brands talked about so far ....

 

Red Cloud

 

http://blog.sina.com.cn/redcloudindigo

http://www.tuckshopsundrysupplies.com/product-category/red-cloud-denim/

 

Sauce Zhan

 

http://zhan.renren.com/saucezhan?from=ownerfollowing&checked=true

 

Bob Dong

 

http://bobdong.taobao.com

 

 

 

Edited October 19, 2014 by Megatron1505

[BlackPig]

Thanks for link to sauce zhan. I am interested in their denim.

Concern about the similarity in the thread title. But that's just my opinion.

[Megatron1505]

I rely on peoples reading ability 

 

I'm working with Sauce Zhan on a new project at the moment, Zhan is a great guy and really knows his stuff. I'll update this thread with pics and progress on that as it happens.

[d-rew12]

I rely on peoples reading ability 

 

I'm working with Sauce Zhan on a new project at the moment, Zhan is a great guy and really knows his stuff. I'll update this thread with pics and progress on that as it happens.

I'm excited to see how it progresses! I own a pair of Sauze Zhan's, and love the denim but the fit just isn't for me.

[Maynard Friedman]

Non-Japanese Brands!

[aho]

http://www.workwareheritageclothing.com

[Megatron1505]

Non-Japanese Brands!

 

Bwahahahahahaha.

[Megatron1505]

Some nice shots of Sauce Zhan jeans....

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[DhaDha]

Red Cloud has gained quite a following outside China for a while now. Their products stood the test of the market well. 

I stumbled upon Sauce Zhan a while ago, their jeans, especially the blended weft, are so interesting, and at $60 a pop, looks like I'll need to fine a proxy soon. 

But Bob Dong, wow, I can see a lot of manufacturers being unhappy about their products being blatantly knocked off (esp. MF). 

I think that's the thing. Chinese products are infamous for being cheap, low quality knock off. Red cloud pull through with some flair and originality. Looks like SZ does have some twist on the used concepts, even if they knock off Tenryo Denim too, but Bob Dong, even if their products are well crafted with quality materials, is a bridge too far as far as taking 'inspirations' from other bands is concerned IMHO. 

[HoustonChris]

I rely on peoples reading ability 

 

I'm working with Sauce Zhan on a new project at the moment, Zhan is a great guy and really knows his stuff. I'll update this thread with pics and progress on that as it happens.

This has potential.  I'm intrigued by what I saw on his webpage, particularly the colored weft models.  I'm a sucker for that stuff.

[Iron Horse]

Due to the recent talk in the Unknown Japanese Brands thread about some of the Chinese brands (and Maynard moaning like a small girl), I thought it might be best for them to have their own discussion thread (and brands from other countries).

 

Brands talked about so far ....

 

Red Cloud

 

http://blog.sina.com.cn/redcloudindigo

http://www.tuckshopsundrysupplies.com/product-category/red-cloud-denim/

 

Sauce Zhan

 

http://zhan.renren.com/saucezhan?from=ownerfollowing&checked=true

 

Bob Dong

 

http://bobdong.taobao.com

 

I believe Bronson was one of the brands mentioned too:

 

http://xzbronson.tw.taobao.com/shop/view_shop-a02dcad6dc7f6006dda57d4d496de2ae.htm?_lang=zh_CN:TB-GBK

[pudaspriest]

So i ordered some of these Chinese brands a couple months ago and got a little carried away because they seemed so cheap. In general I think that they are pretty freaking nice for the price. Don't really have any wear on any of these because I am working on other pairs at the moment but I thought I should share some fit pics since we have a dedicated thread now!

 

Sauce Zhan Oceans

 

Bob Dong camo weft

[pudaspriest]

Bai He purple 

 

Bai He red weft 

 

Bob Dong wabash

[Megatron1505]

Love the way the SZ Oceans break in, on his site he has some more faded pictures and the weft makes for a very interesting wear pattern.

 

On the subject of "knocking off" others designs, especially the Japanese firms, I wonder how Levis and Lee would get into this conversation?

[Cucoo]

On the subject of "knocking off" others designs, especially the Japanese firms, I wonder how Levis and Lee would get into this conversation?

 

Yeah. Not looking to start a flame war, but how is knocking off Levi's jackets including red tab ok in everyone's book but knocking off other brands is not? I think that Levi's jackets have been copied for so long that the designs seem like public domain by now.

 

Bai He denim looks interesting, didn't know them before, seems like they do hemp jeans. I'm trying to not get more pairs than I can actually wear, so I haven't bought any Chinese jeans yet, but those are definitely on my radar now.

[Coolguyzack]

How did you go about ordering Sauce Zhans? Can you buy straight from Taobao, or do you have to get a chinese proxy? Their stuff looks pretty killer...

Edited October 20, 2014 by Coolguyzack

[Cucoo]

AFAIK you need a Chinese phone number to sign up for Taobao, so you need a proxy for stuff that is sold only though Taobao. I personally have good experiences with yoybuy.com, they are reliable, fast and use a web form. (Full disclosure, that is a referral link, I have no idea what I'd get out of it though ) I know that Bob Dong is only sold on Taobao, but I guess other brands maintain their own webshops?

[Coolguyzack]

Rad man, thanks for the help.

[pudaspriest]

Yeah. Not looking to start a flame war, but how is knocking off Levi's jackets including red tab ok in everyone's book but knocking off other brands is not? I think that Levi's jackets have been copied for so long that the designs seem like public domain by now.

 

Bai He denim looks interesting, didn't know them before, seems like they do hemp jeans. I'm trying to not get more pairs than I can actually wear, so I haven't bought any Chinese jeans yet, but those are definitely on my radar now.

 

The bai he's are pretty cool. One pair that I have, the red weft, is definitely not 100% cotton. Google translates the fabric as  blue kenaf x Jiangnian. Not sure if that is hemp or actually kenaf. It is super stiff, much more so than normal raw denim and has not lost much of its stiffness over time. The other pair seems to be cotton, although they have another slightly more expensive version that I believe might be hemp?

[aho]

damnit I typed this response up for Lawless but it looks like the thread was deleted so I'm posting it here:

 

More often than not, you get what you pay for. Is there a market for lower priced, completely customizable denim out there? Sure! I just doubt that much of the existing demographic across these established boards will find much interest. To me, I see this as a lot of hype and name dropping (Kaihara, Kuroki, Cone, made in USA) without much actual substance, but that's for ME personally. I find value in paying more for my denim as I'd venture to guess much across these boards do, although $325ish is my cap (Ooe being my standard; yes, handmade by two people on old machinery using fine materials). When I look at a pair of Ooe's for example, there's an intrinsic quality and soul that I just don't get from Lawless. If this doesn't interest you, that's fine! You're free to discuss and I can only hope there are bigger things for this brand (ex: in house denim). Everyone has the right to better themselves and I hope the same for Lawless. Everyone has to start somewhere! But as I mentioned on db, you won't find much initial support from existing members because we don't care about how much a pair of jeans cost since they've justified the cost in our minds (even if custom made from name brand fabrics; who do pump out different tiers of denim fwiw).

[Megatron1505]

Taking your point here aho, to me price is immaterial to quality and only connected via brands proving themselves through their quality in terms of not only materials, but also workmanship and arguably most importantly fit. The Japanese brands which we know and love have done this, and proved this.

 

If I buy a pair of Iron Heart or Samurai I am pretty much convinced that my purchase will not disappoint me in any way, I know enough to know that what I get will be quality without question. The price point is an argument simply because we can easily see how much these things retail at in Japan, and differentiate that between the price of western retailers, but there are many reasons for that (Japanese wholesale prices are the highest in the world being the major factor).

 

The brands we are discussing in this thread offer something a little different, and not just in terms of price, I am specifically referring to the intrinsic value which you mention. Chinese goods in particular have been tainted in recent years with images of sweatshop labour and low quality, brands such as Red Cloud, Sauce Zhan and others are owned and operated by real denim people, guys who love and understand their denim just as much as people from other countries. 

 

The reason it is cheaper is directly relative to the cheaper cost of labour and materials in China when compared to Japan or the USA, this does not mean that the quality is necessarily lower or that they have been made by people earning a slave wage, it simply means that the relative cost of supply in China is much lower than it is in Japan or the USA.

 

I think that brands like the ones mentioned here have a place to make in this market if their quality meets the expected standard of an educated consumer base (which we most definitely are), they will not find their place by competing at the same price point as the Japanese brands but that is not where they are pitching. There are plenty of mid and entry level brands who should have plenty to fear from these brands (again, if the quality is there).

 

Brands such as Lawless do themselves no favours by hitching their wagon to the heritage train, in the deleted Lawless thread Dirtydenim made a good point about Lawless allowing people to have their own designs made, but if these designs suck and the images make their way into cyberspace as Lawless denim then that is how the brand will be judged by the masses.

 

The difference between Lawless, Gustin et al, and these brands from China is chalk and cheese to me, the Chinese brands are not pretending to be anything other than Chinese denim, made in China by denim people with an appreciation for how a pair of jeans should be put together. They don't name drop mills because their mills are in China, they don't jump on a bandwagon because there isn't one to jump on..... but there could be.

 

Speaking honestly, I am super intrigued by just how good Chinese denim could be if it is done right, there could well be a market at a certain price point and I think it is definitely a new(ish) area of the denim scene worth keeping an eye on.

[Megatron1505]

For the sake of full disclosure, here is a sneak peek at the jeans Zhan is making for me. I am amused by their enormity next to him 

 

[mp201]

Apparently not the best quality, but probably worth noting: http://www.bravestarselvage.com/

[bradl]

Love this, can totally see both points from aho and mega.

For me, I love that these brands are trying things out of the norm, using different fibres, twisted yarn, incredibly slubby denim, cheaper ai denim,playing with the wefts. ut all with the same quality of a Japanese pair. I am only really speaking for red cloud as they're the only ones I have gotten to try. But my Red Clouds, so far have lasted the longest out of all the pairs I have in my rotation, and there isn't a detail missing off of them that I would like to see.

Also the items that red cloud at least, are using are not lower quality at all. The xianjiang/turpan cotton is great, and something different from the usual.

[aho]

Sorry, didn't mean to add any confusion as my post was strictly in regards to Lawless and not any of the Chinese brands discussed on this thread. Full disclosure, I'm actually a big fan of Red Cloud and SZ and applaud Mega for bringing Chinese brands to the forefront and his efforts on reversing the stigma that "Made in China = cheap"!

[volvo240thebest]

Mega, great mega post!

[DirtyDenim1]

Whats up Mega,  Lets chat I have a few things I want to ask you. Pm your email when u have time

 

Aho you are right, name dropping was likely a bad idea but not what I meant it for.  I was trying to explain they are currently using other mills to produce their fabric.  Some people have been asking about the fabric they use for their jeans because of the looms they have.  I also am not meaning to value Lawless with any brands or trying to say buy this instead of that.  Lawless will be an option for someone just like any other brand whether we like it or hate it.  If it were my brand,  Made in America would def be stated not as a tactic but instead as a for your info kind of thing.  Sometimes people take a new denim brands intro to the market as some sort of slight at the brands we love..meaning we do all the " Oh this brand has no shot at being a Samurai" when in fact none of that is being said by Lawless.  Maybe they just want to make jeans & sell them.  I also think a few people did a lil to much pumping of the brand in the wrong places which was their doing not Lawless.  

 

 

 

Ok so now that I have seen the Bob Dong offerings especially the wabash tops & bottoms I want some.  Am I seeing right in that they are all under around $50

[Cucoo]

Ok so now that I have seen the Bob Dong offerings especially the wabash tops & bottoms I want some.  Am I seeing right in that they are all under around $50

 

Yeah, I have the wabash painter pants and the vest. Very pleased with both, heavy stiff fabric, chainstitched button holes and good construction, although quite a bit loose thread ends, but nothing to get upset about. I only wish I'd gotten the darker blue ones, the bright blue wabash I have is harder to pair, especially the pants.

 

Pants (cut is a bit like a 47), here seen with a Levi's duck pullover shirt repro by Bronson:

 

 

Vest

 

[pudaspriest]

 

Ok so now that I have seen the Bob Dong offerings especially the wabash tops & bottoms I want some.  Am I seeing right in that they are all under around $50

 I think mine ended up being a bit around $110 after proxy fees and shipping but it looks like they are 100 yuan cheaper now than when I bought my pair. I second Cucoo about them being a very nice pair of pants. 

[Megatron1505]

Whats up Mega,  Lets chat I have a few things I want to ask you. Pm your email when u have time

 

Aho you are right, name dropping was likely a bad idea but not what I meant it for.  I was trying to explain they are currently using other mills to produce their fabric.  Some people have been asking about the fabric they use for their jeans because of the looms they have.  I also am not meaning to value Lawless with any brands or trying to say buy this instead of that.  Lawless will be an option for someone just like any other brand whether we like it or hate it.  If it were my brand,  Made in America would def be stated not as a tactic but instead as a for your info kind of thing.  Sometimes people take a new denim brands intro to the market as some sort of slight at the brands we love..meaning we do all the " Oh this brand has no shot at being a Samurai" when in fact none of that is being said by Lawless.  Maybe they just want to make jeans & sell them.  I also think a few people did a lil to much pumping of the brand in the wrong places which was their doing not Lawless.  

 

 

 

Ok so now that I have seen the Bob Dong offerings especially the wabash tops & bottoms I want some.  Am I seeing right in that they are all under around $50

 

Hey Sal, PM sent man.