Roy. (expurgated edition)

[rnrswitch]

Hypothetically I think you should shut up

Well, I don't think that was warranted. It is a legitimate question.

In short for me, it depends. i like to support companies that pay their workers well. Usually in a factory type of production, the wealth flows to the top, while the workers get a fraction of what "el jefe" gets. In ROY's operation he gets 100% of the profits. Well, he used to, from a retail sense. But in the end, all the money that comes into ROY's operation, after all expenses is his and nobody else's. i like the idea of supporting a man in his dream. Does it make his jeans worth more? To me, it does. To someone that doesn't see the worth of a pair of ROYs over a pair of ironhearts or sammies probably doesn't think it is worth it.

[bocaburgler]

Hypothetically I think you should shut up

haha you mad baby girl

[roy6]

Why take a purist approach to jeans, and then combine it with a fast-food approach to the denim of which they're made? There are many great Japanese denims with which Roy could expand his palette, but going for a fast-fading one would seem the absolute antithesis of Roy's aesthetic.

Umm hmmn.

That being said though, the Cone denim ROY uses doesn't seem to be a particularly slow fader. Seems to be going along at the same rate as a LVC '47 for me.

I think it's an inaccurate generalization to say that Japanese denim always fades faster than Cone denim. The Cone LVC stuff isn't uniformly slow, and oddly the LVC Japan jeans I've had made with Japanese denim have been extremely slow to fade, much more so than most Cone.

Not very dramatic, but here's a little bit of ROY wear starting to show:

How about more pictures and less exhaustive analysis of ROY's business plan?

[Paul T]

I think it's an inaccurate generalization to say that Japanese denim always fades faster than Cone denim. The Cone LVC stuff isn't uniformly slow, and oddly the LVC Japan jeans I've had made with Japanese denim have been extremely slow to fade, much more so than most Cone.

I don't think anyone's made that generalisation; altho not much Cone fades quickly, and many specific Japanese brands, Samurai for example, crocks very quickly indeed.

My nipper is wearing a pair of original 60s 302 Levi's; I am shocked by how, 6 weeks in, there is no wear at all. THey seem even harder wearing than the LVC repros of the same period. Sammies, over the same timeframe, showed crocking around the covered rivets and other exposed points.

The Kaihara fabric on your LVC JP were designed to be slow fading, just like Cone; they might well fade differently, that could be because they come from a different country, but more likely because they're a different interpretation of a look that was constantly changing and is impossible to pin down definitively.

In any case, while ROY makes his jeans in the US, the fact his denim comes from there, like his cars and his machinery, makes sense to me.

[morse9443]

Sorry to interrupt the intellectualism.

Is the Cone that ROY uses the same that Raleigh Denim uses? Or, is all selvedge denim coming out of Cone the same at this point?

[tropicalbird]

Raleigh 12oz sanforized

Roy 14oz unsanforized

Other cone fabrics still in need more info on:

S/W 202 12.25 OZ @$9.99

S/XX68 12.5 OZ @$12.99

S/W 208 12.25 OZ @$9.99

S/W 233 13.25 OZ @$9.99

[Paul T]

DON't know for sure. I've heard complaints that, outside of LVC who basically have a monopoly on denims developed for them, all Cone, unsanforized is essentially the same. But... look at the jobbers, and they seem to have a real range of STF fabrics.

I believe, forgive if I'm repeating, that Cone officially can't sell STF fabric to anyeon other than Levi's. But the definition of STF seems fluid. Off the record, I do wonder if the frequent discovery of 'deadstock' Cone is a way of circumventing the restriction. I've not been told this officially, but I know Roy does a lot of work for Cone on one-offs, so I wonder if he might get access to 'interesting' fabric in recompense.

Anyway... fuck the price increase, I'm glad he's back. Anyone seen his sewing machine updates???

[Paul T]

tbird, is ROy 14oz presoak? I would bet it's post soak.

[Medine]

Anyway... fuck the price increase, I'm glad he's back. Anyone seen his sewing machine updates???

Yes, he has some bad-ass machines indeed. But can anyone tell me exactly why vintage machines are held at a higher standard than modern industrial machines??

[joelz]

Roy is 14.75 oz presoak, 15.75 post soak... at least according to the guy i was talking to at self edge yesterday

[paulduke04]

hypothetically what happens if some company involving 10 individuals were to make the same quality pair of denim in every way as ROY does himself, but the price of the jeans were to cost half as much because they were less labor intensive while no sacrifice in product was detected.

are the jeans themselves really worth the value we attach to 250 dollars, or are we more so paying for the idea of expert craftsmanship than for the product itself?

I think the jeans are wonderful, and would totally buy them, but as a consumer it's quit silly to buy a similar product for cheaper even though they aren't "hand made"

Did you mean to say "silly to [NOT] buy a similar product for cheaper"? I disagree. In today's more conscientious society, there is a growing consumer demographic that care not only about what they buy but from whom, how, and where. Rnrswitch and many others on this thread seem to reflect that movement - willing to support the production (and not only the product) at a certain level of acceptable cost. Also, we as consumers do not singularly dictate the worth/value of a good. We only play the part of demand and thus we'll see if the real value is indeed 275. Don't forget, if ROY catches fire, the increased demand can drive up prices higher.

Now, if only people who got the 1st gen ROY's post some evo pics... haven't seen any significant wears yet and it's already been 4-5 months.

Question for Paul T, doesn't unsanforized automatically equate to STF?

[Medine]

Now, if only people who got the 1st gen ROY's post some evo pics... haven't seen any significant wears yet and it's already been 4-5 months.

If i gave you evo pictures you would not be happy. These fade slow & there is almost no visible wear on mine. Be patient.

[Paul T]

Question for Paul T, doesn't unsanforized automatically equate to STF?

A technical question. STF fabric, officially, refers to later Levi's fabric that is skewed. THere are restrictions on what Cone can sell, but I can't get to the bottom of it. No one knows (or else no one will tell me) for definite where the Cone denim you will see on sale at jobbers comes from, or whether it's identical to LVC.

[tropicalbird]

nvm, A&E threads that'z some seriousz thread

Edit: I'm trying to get my hands on some Cone denim swatches. Till now my efforts have been futile, might actually buy a few yards each to compare my LVCs with

[apples]

I believe, forgive if I'm repeating, that Cone officially can't sell STF fabric to anyeon other than Levi's. But the definition of STF seems fluid.

The denim Roy uses doesn't shrink, as he said, "it reduces in size."

[jaspar]

Re: Roy's 'catching fire' although they're craftsmanship might be superior, I just don't see what advantages their success from a marketing/retail position, over other American-made, raw denim brands like Raleigh or Baldwin that already have, in some cases mainstream distribution, for less $. What distinguishes N&F, especially, is gimmickry. I don't think there's much immediate risk for Roy's rapid expansion, nor consequential price jumps.

[Noodle36]

This is gonna be long.

BIRD - The Raleighs I have are a 13.5 or a 14.5oz.. The 12oz are the black seed, but I may be wrong.

MORSE - to answer your question quickly, No, all cone is not the same. I have the Roys, Raleighs and Tellason and all are quite different. The Roy and Raleigh have a very unique texture and feel.

PRICE POINT - When all was said and done my Roy's came to $207.79 CA or $204.65 US with shipping and custom embroidery. The current price ($275.00) would be ~$71.00 increase. Add the custom embroidery we have around $100.00 mark up. In my case shipping was ~$30.00 on the original $150.00. So cut that markup to $70.00. So, what does all this shitty Math say. We now have a larger market (selfedge) with free advertising (SE video of Roy). All of this plus free shipping all for a measly $70.00???? Detractors, give your cheap, miserly heads a shake. If you don't think Roys are worth it, YOU DON"T DESERVE ROYS!!! In Canada Nudie Regular Alf selvage are $315.00!!!

LET the posts fly

[bocaburgler]

Did you mean to say "silly to [NOT] buy a similar product for cheaper"? I disagree. In today's more conscientious society, there is a growing consumer demographic that care not only about what they buy but from whom, how, and where. Rnrswitch and many others on this thread seem to reflect that movement - willing to support the production (and not only the product) at a certain level of acceptable cost. Also, we as consumers do not singularly dictate the worth/value of a good. We only play the part of demand and thus we'll see if the real value is indeed 275. Don't forget, if ROY catches fire, the increased demand can drive up prices higher.

Now, if only people who got the 1st gen ROY's post some evo pics... haven't seen any significant wears yet and it's already been 4-5 months.

Question for Paul T, doesn't unsanforized automatically equate to STF?

Yes, my bad. that was a typo.

I completely understand everything you're saying. I agree for the most part, but what I think is being unfairly implied is that if a company were to have a more economic business structure fit for the average premium denim consumer (someone who's willing to pay for quality, but not willing to spend 300 dollars on a new brand without any sort of reputation other than it's work ethic) by having more workers who can produce more goods suited for demand, than that is actually smarter all around. The craftsman ship doesn't change, and the work load would actually be leveled out. Maybe ROY himself wouldn't get 100% of the profits, but the jeans would be cheaper, the quality would remain the same, and he would in all actuality would sell more denim at 185$ than 275$. Unless the whole project is based on him making the jeans by hand because he loves doing it himself completely, than thats cool, but in the end when i'm walking down the street in my pair of jeans, i'm going to be more stoked knowing i saved a hundred bucks on the same pair of jeans made by a company with the same work ethic but a more economically intelligent business model.

[paulduke04]

The denim Roy uses doesn't shrink, as he said, "it reduces in size."

Touche, haha. I didn't realize that Roy's funny reaction to saying "shrink" in that SE video was because of Levi's monopoly on the Cone STF fabric until now.

@jaspar, I'm not sure what you are trying to say. There is or there isn't a risk to his expansion and price hike? I feel that the market will play itself out and appropriate pricing will take place eventually. What I am concerned about is ROY staying in business during that time. If sales are slow, how can such a small operation survive?

@bocaburgler, I actually made the same argument here on this thread prior to ROYxSE. And I agree with you that perhaps having a small number of employs would make the most business sense. But that seems clearly not Mr Slaper's intention, nor is it favored by people on this thread. As such, ROY seems to be take up a very small niche and that seems to be his business model. It's only him and Ande Whall I believe.

[roy6]

I'm not so sure with Cone's dyeing methods tho, It's really stubborn, I've given up on LVCs and my AW cones...

any chance roy might use some japanese denim in the future??

I think it's an inaccurate generalization to say that Japanese denim always fades faster than Cone denim.

I don't think anyone's made that generalisation;.

Duh- the post you had just quoted implied that most Japanese denim fades more quickly than Cone's, I said not all does, which I believe you just agreed with? Don't start with me Mr. T, no matter how full of Taddy Porter you are.

[robbie]

a post i made earlier, with some pictures edited in.

probably wasn't the best way to do it, but i didn't figure the thread would move quite so quickly in a single afternoon.

[rnrswitch]

Looking yummy.

[Paul T]

Duh- the post you had just quoted implied that most Japanese denim fades more quickly than Cone's, I said not all does, which I believe you just agreed with? Don't start with me Mr. T, no matter how full of Taddy Porter you are.

Ha, perhaps I was too subtle. Dawei was asking for some fast fading Japanese denim - but while that might be his taste, I don't think he was necessarily implying that all Japanese denim is fast-fading; i suspect he knows more than that, as he owns a lot of it. Rather, he's certainly impplying all American, ie Cone, denim, fades slowly which is pretty much true AFAIK.

I've often thought that rather than generalise about American vs Japanese denim it might be better to generalise about slow-fading vs fast-fading denim. I'm surprised, for example, by how slow-fading my SDA103XX are - very like 1947 denim in fact. Once we've done so, it's easier for me to make blanket statements like, I hate fast-fading denim, except on kids' clothes.

And I love slow-fading denim, like Robbie's Roys.

I'm not personally a fan of really high-priced jeans, I don't like them as a badge of entrenched materialism. But if any jeans are worth this price tag - especially as opposed to fast-fading Japanese items with blingy gimmicky hardware - these are.

[Joseph Hill]

The mantra of the robber baron, whose exclusive aim is the accumulation of wealth, is "The business of business is business". When something is referred to as economically 'smart', it generally refers to it being the correct method of using the product as the means with monetary wealth as the end. This has forever, regardless of initial intentions, led to exploitation of labor and environment, and economic bubble followed by quality loss and economic 'correction' (crash). Utilizing wealth as a means to develope the product as the end (generally seen with artists, and craftsmen) would lend itself to greater economic stability if it were not for the constant disruption of capitalists who cannot abide to stand by while something of apparant value remains unexploited to death. The capitalist (to lend a bit of hyperbole) is Mathews' Satanic roaring lion stalking the Earth seeking whom he may devour. Capitalism as such can be a good and usefull method, but it requires constant external moderation to keep it from growing into a forest fire from a camp fire. I don't know enough about ROYs situation to attempt prognostication of the path he will take. I only hope to eventually wear a pair and occupy at least a very small spot on his arc of progress, because at least right now he seems to be trying to follow the second path, and his attempt suits me fine.

[roy6]

Ha, perhaps I was too subtle.

Yeah, that's your problem, too subtle.

[BeachHouse]

I feel that the market will play itself out and appropriate pricing will take place eventually. What I am concerned about is ROY staying in business during that time. If sales are slow, how can such a small operation survive?

I'm not even gonna weigh in on the complete sillyness in this thread, but I had to note that speculating on someone's business (especially a privately owned venture) is especially tacky and in bad taste.

[bocaburgler]

I'm not even gonna weigh in on the complete sillyness in this thread, but I had to note that speculating on someone's business (especially a privately owned venture) is especially tacky and in bad taste.

How so? Part of ROYS appeal is the blatancy of hand making denim by one person. It becomes the consumers right to speculate when his practice is at the expensive of the buyer based on an ideal that is nothing more than the idea of hand making denim in small batches irregardless of quality difference

[grooveholmes]

^+1. And of course there is going to be silliness in this thread. Look at the tags. It's a thread where people with too much time ruminate and post pictures of their $150+ jeans. What do you expect?

[dawei69]

Paul and Roy6, Maybe it seemed like I was just wanting some fast fading japanese denim? Well, I want more than just that. It's more than just fast fading... I'm talking that 20 indigo dip process or oxidation catalysing process! which you will NOT get with Cone denim. I'm sure you know what i'm getting at....

Paul, i know you are vintage and repro fan. But Roy is Not a repro company, there is no need to stick to how denim was loomed or dyed in the 1950s or how slower denim from the 1960s would fade. As far as denim purist goes, I dont think purist doesnt equal repro... fast fading denim is simply a by product of the elongated japanese dyeing process... If I like the the cut and the garmet as a whole, then i'll wear it, if it fades and forms by body faster than other denim -that's a BONUS! i'm pretty Flatheads didnt design their denim with fast fading in mind... It's just a by product their extensive dyeing processes, which some people nowadays find desirable.

I might offend alot of people here, but the cone vx denim is like an American interpretation of fine japanese denim.... I've seen alot of cone products. 10 years ago Cone denim did not match anyway near the japanese productions in terms of process and detail... I think Cone denim has improved alot because of the fine competition in the japanese market (which has not really been exposed to the rest of the world until recent years -10-15years max! ) There is just alot of more variety, resources, machines, people with the knowledge in japan.... Why not explore it?

[rnrswitch]

Silliness is allowed. Every once in a while there are some good nuggets of information. Has anyone seen the surfboard shaping 101 course we went through earlier. Spend gang loads of cash on jeans is already silly. Let's not confuse ourselves here. SUFU is silly.