Roping

[indigoeagle]

HI,

 

I was under the assumption that for the beautiful roping effect a chainstitch on the hem was necessary.

Like so

 

 

 

Now today I read the portrait on Jack/Knife at rawrdenim http://www.rawrdenim.com/2013/10/introducing-jackknife-outfitters-quality-start-finish/ (beautiful Western pocket jeans by the way)  and in it it says:

"

While chain stitching has become the standard for raw denim, they’ve opted to single stitch the entire jean by hand without the use of guides or double needle machines instead. The reasoning behind this is simply that single stitching, or lock stitching, is a more durable and sturdier stitch. When combined with their use of a high stitch count, it increases the life of the jean significantly."

And also for hemming they're using lock stitching instead of a chainstitch.

And one can see that that also creates some nice roping.

 

 

So, is the chain stitch overhyped in regard to roping?

Ore is it more pronounced with chain stitching?

What are the other attractions? More pleasing to the eye? Is there something more to it?

 

 

 

[exaptavist]

.

Edited October 10, 2015 by hoggreaser

[Quoise1203]

I've noticed the same thing with lockstitched hems, even on cheaper jeans, and once wondered the same thing myself regarding the hype of a chainstitch. I have since concluded that I much prefer the shape of the roping achieved from a union special chain stitch.

 

From my Roy RS04:

 

[Maynard Friedman]

You'll find further good examples of lockstitch roping from Ande Whall and Hartford Denim Co.

LVC models up to and including the 1927 have this too (for historical accuracy). My 1915s have developed good roping, although not as pronounced as a chainstitched hem.

Edited October 9, 2013 by Maynard Friedman

[garden gnomes in space]

  I think the Union Special is only "special" because it was the OG machine used.  I dont think its significantly better than the alternative in a functional sense.  .  That said, given the opportunity I would choose a chain stitch over a single needle stitch, but thats probably because I have been brainwashed already.  

[altoclefchris]

 

Comparing the chainstitch to the single needle, the chainstitched hem roping has so much more depth to it. Personally, I think roping on chainstitch hems looks better than single needle roping.

[cadence]

I like the chain stitch and roping of the union special better than the other options. Also, part of the appeal to this raw selvage denim for me isn't just the better quality but it reminds me of how things used to be done and they were a lot of times done better and built to last in comparison to today's standards. This stitch may not be as strong but it doesn't need to be down there and it completes the pants the same way as it was done back in the day. So I like it. 

[devilish]

Chain stitch wasn't the 'OG, back in the day' method, single needle was, so that reasoning is flawed slightly. Chain stitch is, as has been mentioned, also sightly flawed. Pull a loose end and it all comes undone. However it does, when done right, produce a great roping effect and the thicker line of contrasting color is pleasing to look at.

When done by someone who knows the trick (like Nick at Jack/Knife) tension can be applied to the hem and lock stitch and you'll get a nice rope that way too.

[garden gnomes in space]

well said cadence.  I agree.  

 

@ Devilish, so everyone has been bullshitting this whole time about chain stitches?  I get it that it wasnt the first, but I was under the impression that the jeans from the "golden era" for lack of a better word, were chain stitched   

Edited October 10, 2013 by garden gnomes in space

[Max Power]

I picked up some leftovers / cutoffs at DC4 from jeans that were hemmed. Surprisingly, some of the best roping was to be seen on standard denim with normal stitching. But they were hard washed. In my experience, multiple machine washes make the roping pop up. Then, there's also Jeans that never get much of it, like Samurais.

 

In General, I think that heavier denim gets less roping as the fabric can't "cinkle" that much. While the 21 oz IH denim still gets some, the heavier denims show not that much of it. The lighter my jeans, the better the roping is pretty obvious in my collection.

[P_K]

In this tread a few posts down roping is explained well.

 

http://supertalk.superfuture.com/index.php/topic/144918-union-special-43200-collection-pic-heavy/

 

Post Im referring to;

 

To address some of the questions that have been posed in the thread:

These are all chain-stitch machines.

The chain-stitch based machine was the first commercially available sewing machine. I believe the "modern" chain stitch was invented by James Gibbs, (needle with revolving lower looper).

As far as "roping" I am going to hurt some feelings but here it goes....

The Union Special 43200 G does not cause roping.

The reason a chain stitch hem on a 43200G is roped is two fold. The main reason is what is called feed differential; when the folder is put on the machine it affects the way that the material is metered through the machine. Many modern machines have walking feet, needle feed, or differential feed dogs to ensure that the top layers and bottom layers being sewn move through the machine at the same rate.

Like many chain-stitch machines the 43200G is a plain feed machine, which means it has a static presser foot and one set of feed dogs on the bottom. A hem consists of (mostly) three layers, when sewing the feed dogs move the bottom layer and the top layer is pushed under the presser foot, leaving the top layer essential uncontrolled. What this results in is a feeding inconsistency, the top and bottom do not move at the same rate, but since they are sewn together a pucker forms.

Without a folder this can be alleviated, but with a folder attached the top layer cannot move anywhere to flatten out the pucker, since it is wedged between the foot and the folder, which results in the roped hem. Technically this is considering a sewing defect, which is why new machines do not produce as noticeable a pucker on the hem, and why jeans made in large factories do not exhibit roped hems.

Essentially the 43200G went out of production in 1987 because of this and other issues. The 63900 Lock-stitch hemmer is much better suited for production and that is why it is the dominant hemming machine in production sewing. 43200G machines are now sought out because they when equipped with a folder create a roped hem which is reminiscent of pants from a bygone era.

To illustrate this I have included a video of a 43200G sewing without a folder and you will see NO roping.

Also to a slight degree natural fiber threads when they shrink will do so at a different rate than the denim which can also cause a slight skew, but it is minimal.

[pomata]

 

lvc 44 hem

[501XX4EVER]

 

lvc 44 hem

 

Wait until Max Power sees this, he'll shit his denim. :D

[oomslokop]

Wait until Max Power sees this, he'll shit his denim. :D

 

thats just so he can wash his denim again, thus creating more roping.     

[Quoise1203]

Although I loved the roping on my Roys, I was tired of having to roll a huge cuff to wear them so I gave in and got them hemmed at SENY after more than a year of wear and 6-7 washes. 

 

I was worried I wouldn't see any new roping on these since the fabric is almost certainly done shrinking. 

 

However, based on P_K's post it sounds like shrinking doesn't have as much to do with roping as the mechanics of the Union Special. 

 

So, is it likely I will see some more roping again down the line?

[garden gnomes in space]

im in the same boat as you Quoise, except I already got them hemmed once.  Not enough was chopped, so I might go back in at some point.  

[Maynard Friedman]

They will definitely show further roping. I had some Eternals hemmed twice after initial wear washes and on both occasions, they developed roping.

[pomata]

 

minor roping on a pair of sanforized jeans (lvc 67-505)

[UkeNo]

My Unsoaked & Unworn Ande Whall have a Single needle hem and there's already some roping on them.

 

 

Cool

[SuperJackle]

Hey guys, does anyone know if a smaller leg opening affects the tension? I just had a pair of kmw's done at blue owl and i can tell there wont be much roping. The 30bsps I had done at SE last year had mad wrinkles right away. Apologies if this was better suited for small q's thread.

[FALERBRAND]

^^^SuperJackle.

All jeans will get some sort of roping on the hem(unless you cut them and let them fray) regardless of chain or single needle stitch.

[501XX4EVER]

A nice bit of roping here on some old-ish 501's, with chain stiching on the hem, I think...

 

 

[sonotvincent]

3sixteens hemmed on a vintage Union Special

Edited December 3, 2013 by sonotvincent

[yawdriel]

Hanzo TS105SS.

[raWorkshop]

The reasoning behind this is simply that single stitching, or lock stitching, is a more durable and sturdier stitch. When combined with their use of a high stitch count, it increases the life of the jean significantly."

And also for hemming they're using lock stitching instead of a chainstitch.

And one can see that that also creates some nice roping.

 

 

So, is the chain stitch overhyped in regard to roping?

Ore is it more pronounced with chain stitching?

What are the other attractions? More pleasing to the eye? Is there something more to it?

Higher stitch count leads to a stronger seam but a 401 chainstitch is stronger than a 301 lockstitch by 10-12%  There's virtually no difference for apparel but many industrial applications will use a chainstitch for the better strength and elasticity.  So things like irrigation tarps or 12 ft inflatable sewer plugs use chainstitch (lack of a bobbin to change is probably a bigger driving factor than strength).  

 

Look at this document from American & Efird re: stitch type and stitches per inch - http://www.amefird.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/Selecting-the-right-SPI-2-5-10.pdf

 

Look at this poor 35800 that was in for service.  It made irrigation tarps, terrific use for a chainstitch - 

 

 

 

 

 

A chainstitch with 100% cotton thread will shrink more than equivalent lockstitch because it uses almost twice the thread for the same area, so there's plenty of shrink to happen.  That may contribute to a roping effect.  It's hard to find a 100% cotton thread that won't compromise the longevity of the garment though.

 

What's more authentic?  What is "authentic"? Depends where you're drawing the line in the sand, much of what's regarded as authentic is arbitrary and idiosyncratic to production logic and available technology.  Clothes used to be sewn by hand out of scraps and furs, depends what you call the good old days.  I'm biased towards chainstitching, I just retimed a 43200G tonight.  Old school oscillating lock stitch machines are amazing but Union Special has them beat by miles in terms of character and joy of use.

Hey guys, does anyone know if a smaller leg opening affects the tension? I just had a pair of kmw's done at blue owl and i can tell there wont be much roping. The 30bsps I had done at SE last year had mad wrinkles right away. Apologies if this was better suited for small q's thread.

Smaller leg openings are much more difficult to wrangle into the breakaway folder because 43200G is not a true off the arm or cylinder bed. This was corrected with the much faster, much more boring 639000 lockstitch hemmer. Edited November 12, 2013 by raWorkshop

[vinchenzo]

My denim from Gap

[PeterParker]

Some heavyweight super black roping:

 

 

Really impressed with this since the IH superblack denim is supposed to be sanforized, and at 21oz it can be challenging to hem. These were hemmed before touching water and just got their first wash.

 

I had these hemmed at SENY back in July. I believe they were hemmed by a lady. Not sure if she's regular staff there, but I want her to hem all of my jeans. These were done perfectly.

[M1stral]

Roping on my Somet 003's.

[mandel9000]

Just a pair of generic Levi's 501s from the late '80s or early '90s that I inherited from my older cousin many, many years ago. I noticed the roping after giving them a wash yesterday and thought of this thread. Photos taken from both sides.  

[501XX4EVER]

Just a pair of generic Levi's 501s from the late '80s or early '90s that I inherited from my older cousin many, many years ago. I noticed the roping after giving them a wash yesterday and thought of this thread. Photos taken from both sides.  

 

That's basically some great denim right there.