How many pairs of jeans do you own?

[ColonelAngus]

8 minutes ago, Double 0 Soul said:

2009 I used to go to the boozer with a short SDA wallet in my back pocket.. (no wallet jewelry, i wasn't a complete twat) ..it was that fat, i would struggle to take it out of my pocket at the bar.. pulling and twisting my hips for leverage.. remind me how cool we were again.. i forget?!

You had the George Costanza wallet 

[Double 0 Soul]

I have no clue who he is.. but if he causes gaping holes in the arse of my jawnz.. then yes!

[indigoeagle]

1 hour ago, Double 0 Soul said:

Diggin deep to 2016..

"Im struggling with this recent penchant for Native American jewelry, its aesthetically beautiful and made with love but its also heavily symbolic and means a lot to a group of peeps who in recent history were plundered, forcibly removed from their homeland and massacred.

How on earth do they feel when they see non native Americans wearing their cultural history for what a lot of folks could and will be a passing trend?
They might be happy to see other cultures finally sharing in their rich social history rather than the distorted cinematic parody? ..and surely the native American makers are happy this jewelry is saleable rather than not? Saying this im not American im only viewing this from afar and my own countries colonial past can hardly be described as welcomed. At the minute it seems there is nothing more soul destroying than Native Americans selling off the last of their heritage to cash rich white folk"

Ouch!

I was in Japan, at the end of the 80s.
The movie "Dance with the Wolves" had just come out.
Apparently it was also very succesful in Japan. Like Harrison Ford Kevin Costner appeared in many commercials on Japanese TV.
Goro's was very popular. He had his little workshop in Harajuku, in front of which people would queue up to buy his jewelry.
Apparently he had lived with some Natives and learned from them and was also a big admirer of their culture and arts.
 

[ColonelAngus]

1 hour ago, Double 0 Soul said:

I have no clue who he is.. but if he causes gaping holes in the arse of my jawnz.. then yes!

He’s a character from the tv show Seinfeld. There’s an episode where he carries a gargantuan wallet around his back pocket

[ColonelAngus]

 

[JohnM]

That's a great scene.  I remember carrying a man bag in Boston in 1979 (purchased two years earlier in Zurich on a post-college vacation).  My soon-to-be girlfriend Holly wondered why I wasn't more interested in her, asking if it had to do with the man bag and being from San Francisco.

Regarding the latest tally on jeans, I may need a calculator ... or therapist.  In short, one or two of everything.

Edited January 13, 2023 by JohnM

[Double 0 Soul]

I don’t doubt it @indigoeagle but you wouldn’t wear jewellery of a heavily symbolic nature as a fashion item anymore than you would wear a kippah or crucifix for fashion if you wasn’t part of that faith.. it’s in particularly  bad taste when the folks wearing the symbolism are from the same culture who forcibly caused the demise of the other.

[Double 0 Soul]

We’ve murdered your people, ridiculed you on film and television and now we’re wearing your religious symbols.. fuck you native americans! that’ll teach you to live on lands we want to colonise.

[Double 0 Soul]

10 hours ago, ColonelAngus said:

He’s a character from the tv show Seinfeld. There’s an episode where he carries a gargantuan wallet around his back pocket

Art imitating life!

I would sit on a slant too.. although i had nothing in my wallet other than a few notes and my driving license which the giant wallet made brown and unreadable.

Edited January 14, 2023 by Double 0 Soul

[indigoeagle]

3 hours ago, Double 0 Soul said:

I don’t doubt it @indigoeagle but you wouldn’t wear jewellery of a heavily symbolic nature as a fashion item anymore than you would wear a kippah or crucifix for fashion if you wasn’t part of that faith.. it’s in particularly  bad taste when the folks wearing the symbolism are from the same culture who forcibly caused the demise of the other.

I don't know anything about this kind of jewelry being used for ceremonies only.
Aren't there Native American jewelers who sell this to anyone to use and wear? Or are those artists also frowned upon?

As with all things, there is often a good original start/intention, but it can be taken too far.
Stealing tribes' designs to sell them as your own is of course bad, etc..
But people also learn from each other, exchange ideas, techniques, etc. to further mankind everywhere. So it can also be a good thing.
Of course, there is- as with many things- a fine line.

I don't have enough knowledge on the jewelry and it's religious significance. I was just thinking, that since Goro was a big admirer of Native american art and culture and apparently lived and study with tribes for some time (I think, he wrote a book about it) he wouldn't do anything against their wishes, i.e. if they had taught him finer details of their jewelry and wouldn't have wanted him to do it himself and sell it, they probably would have told him, and he wouldn't have done it. But who knows.

[Double 0 Soul]

I don't really.. but even something as simple as a thunderbird necklace.. to some this carries spiritual beliefs.. they're not my beliefs so i wouldn't feel comfortable wearing it for reasons of fashion much like i wouldn't wear a crucifix for fashion.

I have no issue with Native Americans creating and profiting from the sale of their own handicrafts.. no cultural misappropriation there.

[Cold Summer]

The whole Native American jewelry thing is kind of an interesting subject because if someone on here wears it, they're appropriating the Japanese appropriation of NA artistry. And as with most fashion aesthetics I'm pretty sure most Japanese just latched on to it because they think it looks cool. Nobody accuses Japanese of cultural appropriation for adopting the mid-century Americana aesthetic, the only reason there's really anything to debate about this is because obviously NA tribes have had a rocky past and history of mistreatment by American settlers and so on, while appropriating the aesthetics of the guys who defeated you in a world war is probably less controversial.

If I was a Native American artisan I'd probably be happy that people were interested in my cultural heritage and buying the stuff I crafted, even if it's just on an aesthetic level. Seems a lot better than being ridiculed or marginalized for it, but what do I know.

Personally, as long as the people wearing this stuff are being respectful and not overtly trying to offend/disdain NA sensibilities, I don't think there's anything wrong with it. I'm not real interested in this style of jewelry personally, but I'm not going to fault anybody who is. As an Orthodox Christian I don't mind when people wear crosses as a fashion item (which is common in Japan, too) or even use icons and other religious symbols of my tradition, as long as it's done respectfully.

[AlientoyWorkmachine]

20 minutes ago, Cold Summer said:

Nobody accuses Japanese of cultural appropriation for adopting the mid-century Americana aesthetic,

Not sure this is true - it's the reason I didn't buy Japanese denim (weird as that sounds) when I took an interest in raw stuff years ago. The entire industry seemed like a weird stockholm syndrome sort of thing - and to be honest it still sort of does, which is another reason I guess that I've tended to prefer things less repro oriented. It's a point I've definitely seen brought up before - but perhaps if the US didn't nuke the shit out of the Japanese and intern them then this stuff all would not be okay among some of the more politically correct factions. But they were the oppressed. I don't think this is really ever about cultural appropriation - it's about who is doing it to whom and how it is done - most of these arguments stem from people who hold pretty clear viewpoints on oppressor/oppressed and what is acceptable. It's moral relativism in practice. Whether or not that's one's cup of tea is a different and far more difficult conversation I think. 

But yea I am pretty much with you. I personally am always evolving on what I find acceptable and what the implications of this are (in the art and journalism worlds, where I live, it's had both good and bad outcomes - I have personally witnessed a lot of self-censorship and ignorant character attacks that benefit no one - but also a heightened sensitivity to and interest in history and in the validity of the canon). This stuff is rarely totally clear. I'd agree that intent matters most, but that's often hard to discern - and so I think unless something is pretty blatant (as in the MF case) it's usually best to give most parties a charitable view to begin with. Lots of people simply aren't thinking that hard about the history and symbolism of such things - apathy or ignorance shouldn't be conflated with malice.

[Double 0 Soul]

There is no right or wrong here lads.. just let your own moral compass decide.. i wouldn't but i'm not saying you shouldn't.

[chicote]

My thoughts on this have changed a lot over the last few years. While I do think that in any instance of cultural exchange it’s very relevant (perhaps more than anything else) to consider the colonial & imperial power imbalance between the two cultures, I think that traditional cultural objects—like jewelry, pottery, beadwork, etc, from indigenous cultures all around the world—and the living artisans who still produce and sell goods made traditionally need to be supported more than ever, along with traditional storytellers, holders of language, and shamans / witches / curanderos or whatever word you’d like to use for a holder of spiritual knowledge.

 

It reminds me, in a funny way, of a John Berger documentary I watched several years ago, and then again a few weeks back, called Pig Earth (an old BBC channel 4 special). It’s about a number of years he spent living in a peasant village in France in the 70s, and what he learned to appreciate about the peasant way of life that he believes contains essential knowledge for those looking to return to a way of life more connected with our ancestors and with the earth. The first time I watched it, I felt he was being hopelessly nostalgic - something he even discusses feeling himself towards the end of the film. But more recently, I really understood the urgency of his message. Peasant life, and the hundreds of generations of ancestral wisdom, storytelling, craftsmanship and magic it encompasses, is one of the most fragile cultures in existence in any society, all around the world. It lives and dies with the people who carry on its traditions. As Berger illustrated, even back in the 70s, all but one young person from the village he inhabited had left the mountains for the city, leaving the town to crumble and decay beneath its aging population. In our present economic condition, this can happen in one generation.

 

It’s one of the saddest memories I have from my time in the Ecuadorian Amazon five years ago, sitting under a massive, four hundred foot long casa comunal built from etched tree trunks and a thatched two-foot-deep roof made of woven palm fronds, observing a few dozen Shuar elders sitting together on one side, drinking chicha, barefoot, with their faces painted, joyfully telling stories they’d learned from their ancestors to one another in their native tongues — and on the other side, three dozen young kids, 5 to 15 years old, roughly, in sneakers and skinny jeans, hunched over cell phones playing some call of duty style war game in total silence. I feel so heavily impacted by that memory and consider it essential to the way my thinking has evolved around the topic of “cultural appropriation”. Rather, I think anybody interested in a culture, not for money or clout but out of genuine admiration and respect, needs to be encouraged and celebrated in pursuing whatever their interest leads them to.

It’s an entirely different matter when H&M or Target starts selling stolen indigenous designs, obviously, but I think it’s equally pernicious that them and other large companies have made conditions such that the craftspeople and artisans who originated these designs have a dwindling number of people to pass their knowledge onto. And that’s something that I believe deserves equal attention when we talk about cultural exchange — that the overall attrition of economic and social power is forcing these deep, rich, beautiful cultures —that we’re supposed to be ashamed to show interest in — completely out of existence.

 

anyway, here is that John Berger movie if anyone’s interested. It’s really worth watching, if just for the storytelling and photography alone!

 

 

[Double 0 Soul]

I've just looked at  https://nativefeather.jp/  .. i didn't realise how vulgar it was.. they like to push the celebrity angle.. folks who have a deep appreciation of Native American culture like "American singer Ed Sheeran who incorperates the brand into his rock star looks"

Like this set worn by American celebrities.. a mere $136,000

 

https://nativefeather.jp/blogs/native-feather/the-history-of-the-goros-brand

 

"Our mission is to preserve the legacy of Goro Takahashi" .. not the leagacy of Native American artisans?.. they frown deeply upon buying "non Goros products"

 

Have a browse around the site.. it sounds like they're one step away from employing Steven Seagal as a brand ambassador

 

Edited January 15, 2023 by Double 0 Soul

[Talan]

20 minutes ago, Double 0 Soul said:

I've just looked at  https://nativefeather.jp/  .. i didn't realise how vulgar it was.. they like to push the celebrity angle.. folks who have a deep appreciation of Native American culture like "American singer Ed Sheeran who incorperates the brand into his rock star looks"

Like this set worn by American celebrities.. a mere $136,000

 

https://nativefeather.jp/blogs/native-feather/the-history-of-the-goros-brand

 

"Our mission is to preserve the legacy of Goro Takahashi" .. not the leagacy of Native American artisans?.. they frown deeply upon buying "non Goros products"

 

Have a browse around the site.. it sounds like they're one step away from employing Steven Seagal as a brand ambassador

 

Steven Seagal is too busy with supporting his idol Putin, no time for Goro’s.

[Double 0 Soul]

..and don't forget all those sexual assault accusations he's got to contend with

[Double 0 Soul]

12 hours ago, chicote said:

..and the living artisans who still produce and sell goods made traditionally need to be supported more than ever,

In our present economic condition, this can happen in one generation.

 

I'm not making a comparrison here!

It's already happened for me and a lot of other traditional crafts people besides.. when i finished my 6yr apprenticeship as a master pattern maker, i was the youngest fully time served master pattern maker in Sheffield.. i still am and i'm pushing 50!.. all the skills i've amassed over my lifetime.. all the knowledge i've acquired from my predecessors will die with me, the difference being my skills don't reflect my declining culture.. a lot of other folks who've studied crafts.. roof thatchers ect still have an application for their skills in the modern world but all my skills based around traditional pattern making techniques, wood carving and such have become redundant as my industry has been taken over by computerised robots.

That massive corebox, i posted in the other thread would have taken me 240hrs to carve two halves by hand, each section accurately carved out and built like a 3D jigsaw puzzle flowing through one section to the other, all done using a spoke shave and carving gouges.. nowadays that would be made from a solid block of modelboard carved out by robotic arm following a computer program in 1/10th of the time.

In 20yrs time there will still be peple making traditional NA jewelry.. sadly nobody will be making traditional pattern equipment.. as we move into the next phase of AI reliant humanity.. the wealthy will own the AI but without a basic universal income we will have no money to buy the crap these robots churn out so at least i'll be a person of leisure.. which is really all i've ever wanted

[Maynard Friedman]

I think it’s a valid comparison Neal, regardless of where the craftspeople/artisans are located. It’s all about mass production and automation undercutting people. In some places there will be more alternative opportunities than others though.

Interesting comment about universal basic income - potentially something that can be turned off if we don’t comply with the government/wealth-owning paymasters - no social credits for the naughty upstarts!

Edited January 15, 2023 by Maynard Friedman

[ColonelAngus]

2 hours ago, Double 0 Soul said:

I'm not making a comparrison here!

It's already happened for me and a lot of other traditional crafts people besides.. when i finished my 6yr apprenticeship as a master pattern maker, i was the youngest fully time served master pattern maker in Sheffield.. i still am and i'm pushing 50!.. all the skills i've amassed over my lifetime.. all the knowledge i've acquired from my predecessors will die with me, the difference being my skills don't reflect my declining culture.. a lot of other folks who've studied crafts.. roof thatchers ect still have an application for their skills in the modern world but all my skills based around traditional pattern making techniques, wood carving and such have become redundant as my industry has been taken over by computerised robots.

That massive corebox, i posted in the other thread would have taken me 240hrs to carve two halves by hand, each section accurately carved out and built like a 3D jigsaw puzzle flowing through one section to the other, all done using a spoke shave and carving gouges.. nowadays that would be made from a solid block of modelboard carved out by robotic arm following a computer program in 1/10th of the time.

In 20yrs time there will still be peple making traditional NA jewelry.. sadly nobody will be making traditional pattern equipment.. as we move into the next phase of AI reliant humanity.. the wealthy will own the AI but without a basic universal income we will have no money to buy the crap these robots churn out so at least i'll be a person of leisure.. which is really all i've ever wanted

I think you’re shorting yourself, especially if you’ve got woodcarving/woodworking skills. I agree that automation is slowly killing those types of jobs but I think it’s about finding your own niche and promoting your skillset versus relying on some company to take advantage of it. I’ve seen people on IG who have lucrative businesses making furniture out of reclaimed wood, which I think is pretty cool. 

[Double 0 Soul]

1 hour ago, ColonelAngus said:

I think you’re shorting yourself, especially if you’ve got woodcarving/woodworking skills. I agree that automation is slowly killing those types of jobs but I think it’s about finding your own niche and promoting your skillset versus relying on some company to take advantage of it. I’ve seen people on IG who have lucrative businesses making furniture out of reclaimed wood, which I think is pretty cool. 

I had to diversify away from traditional pattern making years ago Colonel.. i've spent the last 6 years developing a fully automated process of making ceramic shapes which extract impurities from oil and natural gas which can then be recycled.. i've replaced all the carved wooden balustrades throughout a victorian school.. i've developed some pumps which can drain flood water without killing the fish.. the fish pass through the pump like a fishy roller-coaster.. I'm not short of work ..i'm just not using 90% of the pattern making skills i trained hard to develop and there is no point passing those skills to the next generation because there is no modern day application for them... robotics and 3d printing has made them redundant.

This is the kind of thing my woodworking skills would be used to carve out.. to within +/- 0.1mm accuracy with contraction allowences

It's a volute.. an impeller fits in the center.. which i also used to make by hand.

They're wasted on furniture making!.. saying that.. they're wasted anyway

Edited January 15, 2023 by Double 0 Soul

[Maynard Friedman]

I’ve just 3D printed a pair of deadstock 1880s Levi’s with all labels intact. I’m going to put them on eBay but will take £150,000 from any forum member interested.

[Talan]

1 hour ago, Maynard Friedman said:

I’ve just 3D printed a pair of deadstock 1880s Levi’s with all labels intact. I’m going to put them on eBay but will take £150,000 from any forum member interested.

Do you accept 3D printed pounds?

[Maynard Friedman]

Good try but no, otherwise I’d print them myself! 

[Double 0 Soul]

Here’s one.. this is a model of the inside of the volute which I’ve carved.

I start by gluing 1/6th segments of mahogany together so I can follow the grain structure and carve with the grain rather than against or through it..

I carve out this^ shape, a reducing snail shell, perfectly accurately or it affects flow rates of the liquids passing through..

This former creates the inside shape of the volute.. I then use it to cast the negative in resin which saves carving internally.. or I did until the fucking robots came along!

its still here because once I’ve used it to cast the internal shape, I have no other use for it.

[Maynard Friedman]

Can you explain what a volute and impeller are please Neal? Apologies but it’s all a bit jargon-esque to the layman like me. Looks impressive though.

Edited January 15, 2023 by Maynard Friedman

[Double 0 Soul]

14 minutes ago, Maynard Friedman said:

Can you explain what a volute and impeller are please Neal? Apologies but it’s all a bit jargon-esque to the layman like me.

I’ll do my best in the 2mins I’ve got before I leave work.. that shape above.. liquid would enter the casting through the small diameter on the arm, it would flow around the reducing snail shell, increasing its flow rate.. in the center would be an impeller, something akin to this but more like a jet engine with blades.. (this is the closest I’ve got for demo)

the impeller would spin pushing the liquid out of the suction flange/larger diameter so the volute’s job is to increase the flow rate of the liquid.

[julian-wolf]

Never done this before, but seems like a good time sink for a rainy day

• Big John
  • R008 RARE W31 (worn, loved, returned due to defects)
  • R008 RARE W32 (rigid, sold)
• Gustin
  • Zimbabwe W33 Straight (worn, now too small)
  • Hemp W33 Straight (worn, now too small)
• Iron Heart
  • IH634-DD W34 (worn, fit poorly, given to a friend)
• Naked & Famous
  • Massdrop collab. W34 (worn, fit poorly + generally bad jeans, given to a friend)
• Roy
  • BB00 Test Lot W32 (lightly worn, too small, for sale)
  • R01 Test Lot W33 (worn to the ground, favorite jeans)
  • R01 XX20 W33 (rigid)
  • R01 XUVS W34 (rigid)
• Sakura's Overalls
  • lot 042 1946 W34 (lightly worn, too small, for sale)
• Sauce Zhan
  • SZ003 W34 (worn, loved, given to a friend)
• Sugar Cane
  • MP-619 W33 (worn, loved, now too small)
  • M41030 W34 x2 (both rigid, I didn't realized I had so many of these)
  • M41030 W34 (factory washed)
  • M41051 W32 (rigid, too small, for sale)
  • M41057 W34 (rigid)
  • M41057 W34 (climbing pants, still going strong)
  • M41058 W33 (well-worn, favorite jeans, still going strong)
  • M41059 W33 (rigid, too small, very begrudgingly for sale)
  • M41119 W34 (climbing pants, still going strong)
  • M41200 W34 (well-worn)
  • SC40200 W32 (worn, loved, now too small, for sale)
  • SC40219 W34 salt & pepper (lightly worn, too small, for sale)
  • SC40300 W34 (worn, still going strong)
  • SC40285 W34 persimmon (worn, still going strong)
  • SC40302 W32 persimmon (too small, sold)
  • SC40302 W34 grass (worn, now cutoffs, still going strong)
  • SC40501 W33 (rigid)
  • SC40501 W32 (worn, now too small, for sale)
  • SC40510 BEGIN collab. W36 (worn, sold)
  • 1955 MiUSA W33 (factory washed, unworn, for sale)
  • 1946 MiUSA W34 (worn, still going strong)
• Two Cats Brand
  • TCB SWW2XX W33 (factory washed, way too small, sold)
  • Black '50s W34 (worn, favorite jeans, still going strong)
• The Flat Head
  • S2004 W34 (well-worn, favorite jeans, still going strong)
• The Vanishing West
  • 601xx 1951 W34 (worn, still going strong)
• Warehouse
  • 1001xx / 1000 black W33 (worn, borderline too small, still going)
  • 1001xx DSB (1951?) W34 (well-worn, still going strong)

That list got longer than I expected faster than expected

Edited January 15, 2023 by julian-wolf

[blooming]

On 1/14/2023 at 1:57 AM, Double 0 Soul said:

Art imitating life!

I would sit on a slant too.. although i had nothing in my wallet other than a few notes and my driving license which the giant wallet made brown and unreadable.

Art Vandelay imitating life.

 

Sorry.