30s Jeans XXC 1937-1942

[indigoeagle]

SInce there are plenty of models available (or were at one point) and we already have some discussions in various threads, I thought, it would be fun to have a dedicated thread to the 30s cinch back models to share fit pics, fades and the different models of the various makers.

According to TCB it is differentiated roughly between the early, mid and late 1937 models.
These are the main difference of the models as our resident scholar on this matter Dr Heech had written before here:

"Lvc 1937 at the bottom, Csf 1941 in the middle and FW42's at the top. Both the repro 37 and 42 models have the standard yoke set up, whereas the pair in the middle do not.

The standard yoke set up is what we are used to seeing on 501's made from August 1942 up until the present day which sees the bottom panels overlap the top ones, like on the lvc 37's and FW42's shown."

So the yoke:

1937- right over left
1941- top over bottom
1942- back to standard from then on bottom over top and left over right.

Some issues of the last years:

TCB 30s Jeans C

 

 

Vintage pair of Mr Koizumi from TCB site:

 

Freewheelers Lot.601 XXC 1937

 

WAREHOUSE - HINOYA EXCLUSIVE - HINOYA 75th Anniversary Model - 1003HXX-DSB

 

Freewheelers Lot 601 XX 1942

 

SUGAR CANE Super “Denim” Collectibles Lot No. SC49005 BLUE DENIM WAIST OVERALLS “1942”

 

Cushman 22192 1937 MODEL

 

 

Edited Tuesday at 05:09 PM by indigoeagle

[indigoeagle]

More interesting info from Dr Heech:

"Well from 1936 the back pocket rivets were covered and the tab was introduced. The jeans were given the lot number 501XXC. Some pairs made in 1936 had machine pressed suspender buttons,  probably customer led requests. In 1937 the first 501xx with a pocket flasher was introduced, informing customers about the non scratch 'concealed copper' rivets still being there albeit hidden. Around 1939/1940 the yoke construction on the back of the jeans was reversed. Around 1941 a black buckle replaced the standard copper/silver one. Black stitching was used to sew the waistband on the 501 sometimes in the early 1940s, just before America's involvement in the war.

In April (I think?) of 1942, the second pocket flasher was introduced informing customers about the non scratch 'concealed pocket' rivets still being there on this, the last 501 with a cinch strap before the war. Copper had stopped being used on this model. The most important feature though is the reversal of the back yoke seam construction becoming the standard just before the first war model in December 1942 (S501XX)."

[Dr_Heech]

@indigoeagle haha resident scholar indeed. I have to laugh because some of that info is incorrect now. This is because l am always learning,  so more of a pupil still imho 😊

[MJF9]

^ which bits Doc, which bits??

[Dr_Heech]

Just now, MJF9 said:

^ which bits Doc, which bits??

Well maybe tomorrow I'll do a little update on the 1936-1942 era 501XX which may help me get it all straight in my head too 😅 

[Dr_Heech]

Best thing to start off with is the patent of the hidden rivet and the man behind it, this eliminates alot of myths.

For example (pinched straight from the interweb) - the dates of patent application (7/7/'34) and patent granted (30/4/'35) show a time well before the red tab was attached to the (now) plain back pockets. This eliminates the idea of an exposed rivet model with a tab but opens the door to a possible non-tabbed late 1935/earlier 1936 model? ( Don't worry, one hasn't surfaced yet but They are probably listening). Still, plenty of time to see the experimental hidden rivet model in different guises although the only examples l have apart from the 501XXC-branded hidden rivet model could be customer requests (remember the dude ranches started springing up around 1934) but here they are anyway -

Firstly, hidden rivet model with machine pressed suspender buttons. These are not the press on types available to customers as a separate attachment. I have seen two examples of this model. This #11 from the 501XX book.

Secondly, hidden rivet model with under-tucked/stitched back centre belt loop. This was a feature on the previous, exposed back pocket rivet 501 model around 1934/35 which ties it in as a possible short experimental model. I have only seen two sets of images of this model, both owned by the Berberjin guy. Detail - 

If anything it shows that there were a constant flow of ideas coming in to make improvements to the 501XX at the time, alot of this was down to one man - Milton Grunbaum, most famous for the invention of the Concealed copper rivet.

Milton Grunbaum worked his way up through the ranks at LS &Co to become the factory manager around 1922 and was the creative mind behind alot of proposed and implemented modifications to the structure and strength of the 501XX, for example one of the first improvements was to eliminate the linen thread which was prone to rot, so cotton thread was substituted. His idea of setting up of the modern production line within the factory revolutionised productivity. Improving rivets from the old school tooled head type to the more modern round headed type we're used to now. He was probably responsible for the chainstitched waistband and decisions behind the branding of buttons c.1927. Probably also had a role in the idea behind the pop-on suspender buttons c.1937 and the yoke construction c.1941. All this suggests constant tweaks, constant changes, some subtle, some not so. Obviously the two major changes for most were the Red tab and the hidden rivets. The red tab was soley advertised briefly by way of a painted wooden cowboy torso with a pair of 60" inseam 501's nailed to it before the patent was attached as the first pocket flasher to the back pocket of the New '1937 model'.

So in conclusion (in my mind at least) there are 4 types of 1937 model and one anomaly.  I will make my post about it next.

 

Edited Wednesday at 03:31 PM by Dr_Heech
To edit obvs

[Dr_Heech]

The 1937 501XX models.

 

1. 1935- early 1937 (?) 501XXC prototype model

Pre pocket flasher model with leather patch probably reading 501XXC (the C standing for covered or concealed?) Copper rivets throughout,  flat bottomed concealed copper rivets, from September 1936 the 501 used the smaller 1st issue red tab (12mm as opposed to the normal 15/16mm) placed high on the back pocket. Copper riveted on leather patch. 10oz denim. Mix of orange and yellow stitching. Buckle is either silver colour or two tone copper plated/silver. No images available. 

 

2. 1937 501XX (1937-40 model)

 

First pocket flasher model (dated 1937) informing customers about the new "concealed copper rivets". Larger 15/16mm red tab, cleaner construction throughout. Mostly orange stitching, buckle is usually two tone copper plated/silver. This is the most common model, produced for around 3 or 4 years. 

 

3. 1941 501XX (1941-1942 model)

 

Reverse yoke model where the left and right top panels (yoke) are overlapping the left and right bottom (leg) panels. Still comes with 1937 dated pocket flasher and copper used in all rivets. Mostly orange stitching apart from the chainstitched waistband where black thread is sometimes used. The concealed rivets are rounded copper type, different than its predecessor. Both types of buckle used during this period but on occasion a black painted buckle has been used.This model is less common than the 1937 model. 

 

4. 1942 501XX (April-August 1942)

New 1942 dated pocket flasher stating "concealed pocket rivets", New 12oz(?) denim, yoke reversed back to pre-1941 construction, mix of orange and yellow stitching,  Black anodized buckle briefly used during this short period although one example found has a silver one. Back pocket concealed rivets are now a rounded shape and use copper coated iron, the others are still pure copper until August 1942 when all WPB's were implemented for the S501XX model. This model is the rarest of the main three types commonly found.  Images of this model have already been reposted above in indigoeagle's post.

 

The Anomaly:

I have seen quite a few pairs of 501XX from the period 1935-1942 which have constantly contradicted the notion that the left over right back leg panels construction change came in around 1941. I have seen pairs with 1941 and 1937 details but the construction is still left over right.

Hope all my ramblings make sense?

Edited yesterday at 07:42 AM by Dr_Heech
To edit obvs

[Dr_Heech]

Just spent an hour writing and my phone ran out of power. Gonna take a break.

[Edit] lost it all, will start again later 😐

Edited Wednesday at 03:00 PM by Dr_Heech

[indigoeagle]

1 hour ago, Dr_Heech said:

Just spent an hour writing and my phone ran out of power. Gonna take a break.

[Edit] lost it all, will start again later 😐

Oh, man. I've had that many times.
Sometimes the site here will remember/keep what one had written.

[indigoeagle]

What are the 1939 jeans?
Found that recently on FW's site from 2013: "LOT 601 XX” . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1939 model 5 pocket jeans"

https://freewheelers.co.jp/blog/collection/2013-spring-collection　-　　　　　　　　　　-made-to-order-clothes-of-giants-in-spring/

@Duke Manteeprobably knows, might even have a pair.

Edited Wednesday at 03:39 PM by indigoeagle

[Dr_Heech]

14 hours ago, indigoeagle said:

Oh, man. I've had that many times.
Sometimes the site here will remember/keep what one had written.

No didn't manage to retrieve. Have rewritten a shorter version which l will constantly edit and update within the next few days. 

Edited yesterday at 05:56 AM by Dr_Heech

[Duke Mantee]

4 hours ago, indigoeagle said:

What are the 1939 jeans?
Found that recently on FW's site from 2013: "LOT 601 XX” . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1939 model 5 pocket jeans"

https://freewheelers.co.jp/blog/collection/2013-spring-collection　-　　　　　　　　　　-made-to-order-clothes-of-giants-in-spring/

@Duke Manteeprobably knows, might even have a pair.

Yep, had a pair, but I wouldn’t put the 39s in this thread - IMO it wasn’t an issue that FW wanted to make ‘period correct’ … but they did have the best arcs ever sewn onto a back pocket

https://freewheelers.co.jp/blog/new-arrivals/lot-601-xx-″1939″/

[indigoeagle]

9 minutes ago, Duke Mantee said:

Yep, had a pair, but I wouldn’t put the 39s in this thread - IMO it wasn’t an issue that FW wanted to make ‘period correct’ … but they did have the best arcs ever sewn onto a back pocket

https://freewheelers.co.jp/blog/new-arrivals/lot-601-xx-″1939″/

Ah, that pair. I understand. Artistic licence based on historic details, which is their thing mostly, isn't it. Nice

They have revisited that arc with this pair in 2021:
https://freewheelers.co.jp/blog/desolation-row/lot-601-xx-early-1922-special-model-desolation-row-exclusive/

Edited Wednesday at 08:13 PM by indigoeagle

[UkeNo]

This thread is superb. @indigoeagle & @Dr_Heech  

The perfect amount of detail and history. 

Having just got a pair of 37’s jeans from Word Of Mouth and recently started reading up on the 42 models of jeans and jackets, this thread is a great resource. 

Thanks very much. 

[Dr_Heech]

1 hour ago, UkeNo said:

This thread is superb. @indigoeagle & @Dr_Heech  

The perfect amount of detail and history. 

Having just got a pair of 37’s jeans from Word Of Mouth and recently started reading up on the 42 models of jeans and jackets, this thread is a great resource. 

Thanks very much. 

Thanks mate, feel free to add pics of your womcom jeans here when you get the time.

[shredwin_206]

my heavily abused Freewheelers 1937. Tried to get some good photos 

[Dr_Heech]

Look like vintage 37's @shredwin_206 Nice job