Nice Things

[AlientoyWorkmachine]

It may be rather obvious, but so much American development occurred after the invention of the automobile. So the scale of development became commensurate with that, and really rather hostile towards pedestrian/cyclists. So much of Europe was developed before the autos, so the roads are on a smaller scale and have been (often uncomfortably) retrofitted for autos -  which also makes a lot of those places better for pedestrians and cyclists just because of density. 
 

This is a big simplification - we definitely need to do better here (one reason I like my town, they’re constantly working on bike accessibility and it’s made a huge difference). But if you live a highway commute away from work like so many, there’s just no practical other way. 

[AlientoyWorkmachine]

53 minutes ago, indigoeagle said:

I think the BEVs are often twice the weight of their ICE counterpart due to the battery.
So it's all a mixed bag.

No, they’re a little heavier but this is generally incorrect. 

[indigoeagle]

20 minutes ago, AlientoyWorkmachine said:

No, they’re a little heavier but this is generally incorrect. 

You're right. I hadn't checked that.
I looked into. I have an older Golf Diesel. It's weight is 1092kg.  A current Golf electric is 1615kg.

https://www.ultimatespecs.com/car-specs/Volkswagen/3131/Volkswagen-Golf-4-16-16v-FSI.html

https://ev-database.org/car/1087/Volkswagen-e-Golf

edit: I checked curb weight for a similar model from 2019. It's heavier at 1295kg.

https://www.auto-data.net/en/volkswagen-golf-vii-5-door-facelift-2017-1.5-tgi-130hp-dsg-37257

 

Edited October 17 by indigoeagle

[AlientoyWorkmachine]

Another data point - a 2025 Volvo XC40 is about 3900 lbs (depending on the trim level). The EX40 (same exact car, but electric) is  about 4700 lbs, again, depending on trim level. 

I don’t think EV’s are a savior, and each person has different needs - and out in rural areas charging infrastructure is an issue etc, but there is a lot of bad info out there that dissuades people from looking into them.

I am pretty convinced that if you live or work at a place where you can charge and you drive less than 150 miles a day round trip (conservatively), they’re quite likely to be well suited and make your life easier and save you money over the long term (maintenance is basically changing cabin filters and tires and…that’s it)  at least when held to a comparable gas model. 

[Double 0 Soul]

Yep.. our entire infrastructure was built around the horse and cart which had a similar wheelbase to cars built up to the millennium..

I’m not making comparisons here folks, SUVs are fine for American roads but as previously mentioned, unless you change your buying habits, our small island with no motor industry if it’s own is destined for ever larger vehicles which are too wide for our roads.

[julian-wolf]

2 hours ago, AlientoyWorkmachine said:

 

@julian-wolf what i’d really love is an EV Volvo wagon. They have them in Europe I believe (I swear I saw one in Scotland this summer). But the polestar 2 is the closest thing to that for now in the US, since car makers again don’t give us as many “car” options, and the PHEV v70 they offer is crazy expensive. 

That would really be the dream—it’s a little hard to understand why anyone would buy anything other than a station wagon as their primary vehicle, given the choice

That said…for my current use case, what I’d like to see is more options for sporty little 2-seater EVs. I’m in the market for something that I’d be fine using mostly for commuting. We’ll be keeping the old Subaru around for road trips and all that, so it’s not like we need much space in the commuter anyway. As soon as you get to the smaller options, though, they’re almost all severely underpowered—and, as has been said, that starts to feel like a pretty real safety concern when spending an hour a day on 80 mph freeways, even if the smaller size itself isn’t already

[yung_flynn]

2 hours ago, Broark said:

If I had it my way I'd live somewhere where I didn't have to rely on a car at all, but we're pigeonholed into it in the US unless you live in NYC.

After living about 10 years in the Twin Cities and Chicago/Evanston, I've missed the lifestyle of walkable cities and public transit my last few years here. I really enjoyed being able to read while riding the train or bus in to the office or lab. In my present location there is no public transit at all and the city is very bike unfriendly as well. I'm just glad now that I only have to drive 10 min to the office without needing to hop on the highway.

Our next car most likely will be an EV, although we are not in the market in the near future. Our present location is relatively ideal for owning an EV because space is abundant, and we rarely need to drive more than 15 minutes to a destination on the daily or even more than the 2-2.5 hours to a bigger city (or airport) or deep nature (UP and northern MI). I work tangentially to the EV industry too so there is some personal investment in the technology.

Edited October 17 by yung_flynn

[AlientoyWorkmachine]

15 minutes ago, Double 0 Soul said:

Yep.. our entire infrastructure was built around the horse and cart which had a similar wheelbase to cars built up to the millennium..

I’m not making comparisons here folks, SUVs are fine for American roads but as previously mentioned, unless you change your buying habits, our small island with no motor industry if it’s own is destined for ever larger vehicles which are too wide for our roads.

You’re missing the speed/distance part of the equation here. It’s not just road width in an urban space. It’s far flung bedroom communities being possible - and everything that entails on an infrastructure scale. I don’t think it’s an excuse, but it is a notable challenge that even the most well meaning city councils have to deal with. Add into this the fact that living somewhere bikeable in a mid sized town becomes a real issue of housing affordability. Most people who work in the city center can’t afford to live there, and live on the outskirts where there is quite possibly dirt roads for the last few miles of their drive. So they’ll buy for where they live and drive that beast into the city center.

The best parts of the small city I live in, that I will never afford, where biking/walking is the most feasible for most people, houses are north of 1 million easy. That’s impossible for most. It’s essentially a luxury lifestyle perk unless you’re willing to add extra miles every day (I am, for now). 

At this point with the SUV thing this a sort is a chicken or egg question. It’s hard to change buying habits because the industry - including European manufacturers have quite forcefully fronted SUV’s here for a long time. I think this ship has sailed because very few want to go smaller (my car is a 2014 Mazda 3 hatch…I have no feelings towards it other than I appreciate it goes). When that thing dies I will try hard to find a comparably sized or smaller EV. It will be tough. When we were in Scotland last summer, I wanted to rent a car, but they gave me damn Santa Fe, which I agree was a bit of a squeeze!

[OutSider]

Bigger is also thought of as safer, specially if going up against another SUV. 

It's basically replaced the minivan. Also looks more rugged for the male market who won't drive a minivan but will rock a SUV

[Double 0 Soul]

^^Hey.. how did you know I was missing all those things? 

 

[julian-wolf]

Agreeing with all points from @AlientoyWorkmachine. I’ve been extremely lucky to live for most of my life in walkable / bikeable parts of my city, but now with more people + more dogs in the family it felt necessary to have a little more space, and that meant (as it does for so many) either spending $4k+ a month on rent or moving farther out into a more residential (& less accessible) part of town. The house we’ve landed in is beautiful and very homey feeling, and I do like a lot of things about the neighborhood overall, but the reality of it is that going anywhere or doing anything requires getting in the car. That really, really sucks, but there’s no clear way to get around it without moving to a very different part of the country—or a different country all together. This is where family is, and this is where work is, so here we are…looking at SUVs just to commute and run the dogs and go get groceries.

[rbeck]

@Broark nice Rivian! I really like the hatchback they teased a few months ago and can see myself getting something along those lines once my VW is run into the ground. 

I had posted the frame when I got it, but I finished building it up the other day so here's my new mountain bike (and a pic with my hardtail).

[reallypeacedoff]

3 hours ago, Double 0 Soul said:

Where will it all end? to be visible / safe amongst the 2 tonne vehicles, you buy a 3t vehicle.. when everyone drives a 3t vehicle you buy 4.. the larger the cars get, the more dangerous roads become for other road users.. and crazy as it sounds, i’d like to be safe and visible too 

This is pertinent to how tall cars are too. As people like to sit higher, each iteration, the cars get higher. I have a pretty low car, so I hate being behind vehicles that I can't see the next car. SUVs as sports cars (RS/AMG/M etc) make no sense to me. For a car to be fast, the center of gravity should be closer to the ground, why bother with a car that wasn't really meant to go around corners? I guess it's a selling point to dads that need to sell a concept to their wife? 

I remember watching TheSMokingTire do an episode on the Rivian R1T @Broark, that thing is capable!

[Geeman]

I've just bought a brand new VW Tiguan, after years driving Mercs. My new job has me doing a lot of miles , including an150+ drive twice a week. I get OOs point but needed something a bit more upright and comfortable than sporty saloons. Add in I got stuck in a tiny Norfolk town due to flooding in my last merc, it was enough to convince me the SUV was the best option.

It has semi automated driving as well, so long motorway or stop start traffic,  I just let it do its thing.

Takes some getting used to but works well.

[Cold Summer]

Late to the car talk, but here it goes...

As you'll see a couple pages back, I bought myself a a ~30 year old car earlier this year to be my personal/"fun" car. My other vehicle is a 2015 Honda CR-V.

The CR-V is great for day to day family activity and convenience, and course has modern safety features, which is nice when you're transporting two kids.

But when it comes to comfort and general driving experience, the Olds wagon absolutely stomps the CR-V, it's not even close. The Olds just floats down the road, it's such a smooth and pleasant car to drive, the seats are cozy velour and it's spacious inside, with a bench seat, no giant center console, and with surprisingly little cabin noise. The 3.1 L V6 has plenty of power, and combined with the four-speed automatic, offers a very satisfying drive. It's nice sounding engine too, the CR-V's engine sounds like a lawn mower in comparison. The CR-V has a much higher quality of fit and finish, and there are some materials and build aspects of the wagon that feel a bit cheap but overall it's sturdy and robust in the same way as a vintage Fender amp I used to own.

I absolutely do not like the high-riding feel of SUVs and trucks at all. When I drive the CR-V, it feels harsh and twitchy, and I feel like I'm being laterally jostled around in a way that's totally absent from my wagon, and I think the center of gravity has a lot to do with it. Last weekend I went on a trip with my dad and drove his Ram pickup he got in the last two years or so. It rode pretty decently, but again, there was that annoying lateral rocking. If all you ever drive are trucks you probably don't notice it, but driving an actual car has completely spoiled me. That trip would have been more pleasant in a classic American land yacht like a Chevrolet Caprice Classic or Ford Crown Victoria, or heck, even a Toyota Avalon.

If it weren't for child safety aspects I would love to only drive older, pre-2003 cars. New cars, besides being absurdly expensive and almost universally ugly, inspire distrust in various ways: the absurd volume of fragile electronics, giant screens replacing buttons and controls that can be operated by touch while driving, over-the-air "updates," poor visibility, general plasticy cheapness, and so on. Planned obsolescense has been a thing for a long time but it's a lot more glaring now, if something on my wagon breaks I'm much more confident that it can be affordably fixed or replaced than on a new car.

Really the only downside to my wagon is safety, and the fuel economy is a bit lacking compared to a comparable modern car. There's something satisfying about driving around in a car with a design I actually like. Maybe it's just because I grew up in the 90s, and still hold 80s/90s cars as my base point of reference, but modern cars look so strange to me. They all have giant wheels, thin sidewall tires, absurdly tall fenders, and tiny, squat little windows with bad visibility, and comically angry expressions on their front ends, and this seems just as true of modern sedans as larger vehicles.

What's puzzling to me is why everything has to be a sports car with twitchy handling, harsh suspension, and hard bucket seats, and nobody makes comfortable cars anymore. Even a friggin' Toyota Camry looks and drives like an angry sports car now. I'm not a race car driver, I'm not an angry macho man, I'm just a suburban dad with needlessly nitpicky taste in everything, and nobody makes a new car for people like me. Or at least, not one I could afford; I'm sure I'd love a Volvo V90 if somebody gave me one for free. So I'm completely happy driving an old one.

 

Edited October 17 by Cold Summer

[Double 0 Soul]

Having read all POVs.. i still can't understand why y'all can't simply choose a smaller car instead of your SUVs .. the car market is consumer driven so drive it with your consumerism.. i appreciate SUVs are safer but your need for safety is compromising the safety of other road users.. SUVs can drive on dirt roads apparantly?.. as someone who's blessed with zero sense of direction, we've negotiated treacherous mountain dirt tracks all over Europe and snow drifts across the Peak District with zero visibility in nothing more than a Fiat Panda or VW Lupo and i've lived to tell the tale.. it's just a case of forgoing a small percentage of ones own comfort and safety for the wellbeing of other road users, some folks are preparred to make these sacrifices and some folks are not.

[Maynard Friedman]

If it wasn’t for ULEZ, we’d still have our 2008 diesel Vauxhall Zafira 😂

[Double 0 Soul]

I'm just eating pizza with the offspring.. 😋

[Cold Summer]

Personally, I would take a principled death in my wagon than ignobly survive an accident in a giant SUV. Besides, making stratospheric monthly payments on the big SUV would just make me wish I was dead anyway!

@Double 0 Soul Back when I lived in northern Japan in 2011-12, I drive a Suzuki kei car, a front wheel drive box that probably produced less horsepower than a ride-on lawnmower, and I literally drove the thing on solid ice roads for about six months a year with virtually no issues at all, my town was literally buried in snow constantly and I never had any problem getting around in that tiny car or thought what I really needed was a big truck.

The truck/SUV crazy in the US is rooted in pure crony capitalism. Government regulation loopholes incentivized auto makers to build big trucks and SUVs because they're subject to less strict standards than smaller cars since they're categorized as "light trucks," which was intended to apply to commercial work vehicles; and thus, this makes them more profitable. And then, through the magical influence of advertising, American consumer taste was sculpted toward these big, profitable vehicles by selling an image of rugged toughness.

Once upon a time, men aspired to own a car like a Buick or Mercury that signified you were sophisticated and classy, or a Cadillac/Lincoln if you really wanted to exude rich man vibes. Today, it's all about projecting the image that you're the most braggadocios asshole possible. What's funny is that it's all pretty superficial, my area is chock full of these angry bro-dozer trucks, but they seem like perfectly polite drivers for the most part despite the machismo, and their trucks rarely look like they've ever left the road or carried anything in their beds. I never feel unsafe driving around in my wagon in day to day life.

I'm not dunking on any of y'all here who've given pretty reasonable explanations for whatever you drive in this discussion. Just sharing my observations on the general culture and all that.

Edited October 17 by Cold Summer

[Double 0 Soul]

This^ is the most sensible thing i've read all day 😍

[Maynard Friedman]

I like to drive small cars but a psychologist would probably say that I’m just compensating for my huge penis 🍆

[Double 0 Soul]

So why don't you?

Here's my old Loop.. (997cc, 60+mpg)

I used this for my 40min daily commute into the city when i lived out in sticksville.. i would drop the kid at nursery and the boot was plenty big enough for the Bugaboo pushchair, it's all you really need.

..and my 240 wagon (1986cc 20mpg if you're lucky) which i used at the weekend for camping trips, bikes, fishing tackle and such

.. nowadays, i hardly drive at all.. probs, less than 1000 miles/yr

Edited October 17 by Double 0 Soul

[smoothsailor]

I just drove in a borrowed car to Dresden for a bike show.

my old Volvo died and live further without a car for myself.

with two friends we going to buy one small car to share.

it amazes me that the world keeps on pushing towards cars.

 

[jkbrwn]

1 hour ago, Double 0 Soul said:

So why don't you?

Quite simple - because they don't sell them anymore.

When I first moved to the U.S. from London, where I owned a VW Polo, I went to a VW dealership and asked if they had any Polo's or Fox's. The answer was no. They had also never heard of them. They barely had any Golf's.

It's a self fulfilling prophecy. I can't buy what is no longer manufactured. The Honda FIT/Jazz is the perfect every day car IMO - Its tiny but cavernous inside and it was discontinued here in 2020/2021.

I currently own a Mazda CX-30 which for me is as small a car as I'd want out here from both a perceived safety and visibility perspective but also internal cargo space. California is HUGE, with more recreation opportunities than you can shake a stick at. I drive all over the state with a large cooler, or a raft, or a kayak, or bicycles, or dogs and so on.

Not saying this is you @Double 0 Soul - but so many people back home in the UK cannot fathom the size of the U.S., or the distances that we drive, or the geographic sparseness, or the arid conditions we drive in. I have had my CX-30 for two years this week, and I've done 41,000 miles in that time. Dunno about you but I wouldn't want to do 41,000 miles in a small car with a 997cc engine.

Edited October 17 by jkbrwn

[smoothsailor]

Dunnoabout you but I wouldn't want to do 41,000 miles in a small car with a 997cc engine.
why not? The max speed is the same for every car. Let the bigger engine car wait a bit when you take over a truck.

and it’s cheaper

[jkbrwn]

20 minutes ago, smoothsailor said:

why not? The max speed is the same for every car. Let the bigger engine car wait a bit when you take over a truck.

and it’s cheaper

Pretty much what I alluded to. Comfort, space, flexibility, engine noise, mountains. A 997cc engine driving over a 12,000ft/3600m with a whitewater raft and associated equipment, cooler, bicycle, clothes, Starlink dish, batteries, solar panel etc would have me driving at 6mph. I am absolutely a small card advocate, hence why I own one of the smallest cars on the U.S. market, but sometimes small is genuinely too small IMO.

[AlientoyWorkmachine]

Yea, I like small cars too. (Just to be clear, I like bicycles the most). Actually, our Volvo EV replaced our Honda Fit - which was great - but my wife did not feel comfortable with our kid in it and while I didn't mind as much, it clearly was not the best option, and it genuinely sucked whenever it snowed or there was an ice storm here, which happens often enough. It was too light. The time she got stuck on the way to an emergency was the last straw. It also struggled mightily to keep up on Appalachian highways or even couldn't traverse some roads in North Carolina where we used to live, (rutted out mtn roads and low clearance, especially in borderline freezing weather or even a lot of rain are a bad combo). The limitations were real. 

Other takes here I can understand but just can't get on board with. I'd happily get in a crash in a modern safer SUV that saved my hide than die in my cool old car. I think my toddler son would not really ever be able to understand that sort of attachment over life. I get (or hope?) the comment is partially in jest, but it's still a little intense for me to read. 

But yep, the biggest thing, as has been said is that you can't buy them. Where the blame lies is contestable. Crony capitalism is definitely a part of it, I think that take is spot on. I also think the caricature of dudes compensating really just points at a small niche in the overall issue. Those are the easy ones to spot, but not the majority. But @Double 0 Soul I'd invite you to the US here to try to talk to my wife, my mom, my mother in law, my step mother in law, or frankly most of my friends to tell them why they should put aside their valuation of safety (even if only perceived) and convenience 😃 In spirit, I'm with you - it feels a runaway problem, but like, we've got to pick our battles. The SUV we have now was actually the result of me persuading my partner to go down in size from what she wanted, which was a response in part to the driving of the Fit and feeling unsafe in the tin box in snowstorms on the highway etc. There are a lot of buyers decidedly not into cars that literally are just looking for safety and convenience and the industry has decided on pitching this for a long time now.

The new Rivian concept R3 looks like to be a Golf style competitor, fwiw. I am not sure how it will do, but I like the looks of it. The only car I ever had that I really enjoyed was an old Saab 900 manual 2 door, but god that thing was always a thousand or two thousand dollars away from working properly. An EV version of that (or aforementioned Volvo Wagon), I'd be a happy camper.  

Last thought that I think backs up what @jkbrwn is saying - last year I worked with a bunch of international professionals, many of whom arrived to the university town set on not owning cars because they hadn't where they had lived before. By the end of the year, most of them did, and many of those were SUVs. Not because they wanted to, but because they realized they literally couldn't access a whole lot of what life is out here without it. It sucks, but while we advocate for better public transit and bike infrastructure, gotta have a way to get to work/life etc. 

Edited October 17 by AlientoyWorkmachine

[julian-wolf]

7 hours ago, smoothsailor said:

Dunnoabout you but I wouldn't want to do 41,000 miles in a small car with a 997cc engine.
why not? The max speed is the same for every car. Let the bigger engine car wait a bit when you take over a truck.

and it’s cheaper

To be clear, no, the max speed isn’t the same for every car. There are straight, flat, empty stretches of road hundreds of miles long in the high desert where it’s pretty nice to be able to do 120–130 mph and still feel in good control

It’s obviously not a common use case—especially taken to that extent—but some cars being (much) faster than others is very much a real consideration

Edited October 18 by julian-wolf

[jkbrwn]

6 minutes ago, julian-wolf said:

To be clear, no, the max speed isn’t the same for every car. There are straight, flat, empty stretches of road hundreds of miles long in the high desert where it’s pretty nice to be able to do 120–130 mph and still feel in good control

120-130 damn son 😅 I've never gone over 90 lol and even that is just overtaking downhill

[julian-wolf]

7 hours ago, Double 0 Soul said:

it's just a case of forgoing a small percentage of ones own comfort and safety for the wellbeing of other road users, some folks are preparred to make these sacrifices and some folks are not.

This just isn’t a relevant take. I would love it if it were—getting to share the road with bikes and pedestrians would be great by me, if for no other reason than that it would mean I could be a cyclist or a pedestrian myself. The reality for a big chunk of folks in America, though, is that like 80+% of driving is on 8- and 10-lane motorways with nothing but cars and trucks in every direction.

The whole holier-than-thou vote-with-your-bucks argument is great when you’re talking about not wanting to support a new chain in town that’s putting out local businesses, or whatever, but, as has already been mentioned, car companies here are going to push for bigger and bigger no matter what consumers want, because that’s where the money is.