Levi's Vintage Clothing

[Lex2]

lex--interesting observation. i only care about lvc and a little bit about m&c. if they want to create another "premium" line that focuses on women to close the gap in that billion dollar market, fine, whatever. they could have done that without doing a 180 on the levis xx tip. as far as i know levis xx was their premium (or "elevated") line, for both men and women. from the looks of things, they basically said, "hey thanks for your time but this little experiment/soiree is over" before they even had enough time to develop/market/generate interest. it's the fast money, aggressive approach to business. to the nerds like us (pocket change to them) and the levis xx folk (expendable), it comes across as a "f*ck you very much-- this isn't going to bring us money now". this approach sometimes works, but for a brand that touts its heritage and tradition, it looks like floundering incompetence and impatience. i'm not sure what dissolving the "independent, creative, entity" accomplished except to save some short term cash. i'll reserve total condemnation of levis until more info about the future of lvc trickles out.

It's probably still too early to tell as you said, but my guess is that we'll see more LVC being sold in their mainstream stores over the next year or so, but not necessarily all the models in the current line up. Notice that I used the word "mainstream" since even Levi's thinks that the market for premium selvage products has matured. It is an irony that they made the last selvage 501s around the early eighties but it took a whole slew of independent manufacturers (including Japanese ones) to revive old shuttle loom denim and made it "premium." Talk about a real 180. But who could have foreseen this? Not even Levi's. I don't have any statistics for the global premium selvage market (almost exclusively all menswear) but I would think that it would be quite sizeable. Again it boils down to what one defines as premium - selvage is just a subset of that category. There's a whole slew of other categories and womenswear would be a large chunk of that. Unfortunately Levi's missed the boat on that one, busy as they are contemplating competition from vertical integrated companies like Gap and the rest.

But look at the bright side. If they were publicly listed on Wall Street that would probably be the death knell for LVC.

Edited December 12, 2011 by Lex2

[ThomasK]

Just got a '47 from the FW 11 Collection. Unlike the '47 from SS11 the denim is much more blue in the current run. They look definitely like my 2008/9 '47. I think I will take some pics when the lighting is better.

[Maynard Friedman]

This is not directly related to the closure of the separate Levi's XX division and its amalgamation into the wider brand, but may be a reflection of the lack of attention to detail in the mainstream company (or might just be a typo!).

Taken from the Levi's eu website:

"XX' in industry phrasing means Double Extra Heavy. It first referred to the denim, used on 501® Waist Overalls, that we bought from the Amoskeag Manufacturing Company from 1873-1915. Since 1922 the 501® has been made exclusively from pre-shrunk Cone Mills red selvage with the guaranteed XX of the North Carolina looms which signify premium quality."

http://eu.levi.com/en_GB/information-center.html?category=glossary

[ThomasK]

Maybe they change it after the amalgamation. There's always something to learn..

[jyoni]

It is an irony that they made the last selvage 501s around the early eighties but it took a whole slew of independent manufacturers (including Japanese ones) to revive old shuttle loom denim and made it "premium." Talk about a real 180. But who could have foreseen this? Not even Levi's.

I just want to note that the revival consists of more than looming up mass fabric. shuttle looms were abandoned because they were no longer the fastest way to produce. The people who kept the looms going really started to push the limits of the machines and took denim to an intimate, small-scale artisan level of experimentation and variety in weights, dyes, etc.

i hope this perspective isn't lost on levi's. sometimes I think it is when i see selvedge products like low-buck stf's (sup j crew) and "global blues" in their stores. while lvc is self-limited to repros of basically the early eras of mass production, they do have an extremely devoted and interested customer base in our niche. it would be wise of them to address their issues within our market. i could see xx, in terms of denim, successfully broadening out into heavy ounce plays on the vintage to reach more of us. like, really nice shit in the post-revival vein.

I totally agree they could never compete with shit like lucky or serfontaine. that "premium" denim market is founded on a very aggressive status symbol mentality, rooted in visual recognition of how much money a person paid for their clothes. even the very use of "premium" selvedge fabric by these companies is a marketed and "synergized" visual cue. the levi's workwear history and ethos just doesn't jive with it. it's too deep in people's perceptions.

Edited December 12, 2011 by jyoni

[jyoni]

1947 501xx size 28/34, i have only 4 buttons fly...

presoak measurement (inch)

waist 27.5

rise 11

thigh 10

LO 8

inseam 34

postsoak measurement (soaked in warm water for 1.5hours)

waist 27

rise 10.5

thigh 9.5

LO 7.5

inseam 31.5

not the best quality picture, lighting is not so friendly during winter.

Those look great, kayodic! is that button count typical for small pairs?

[shoreman]

I just want to note that the revival consists of more than looming up mass fabric. shuttle looms were abandoned because they were no longer the fastest way to produce. The people who kept the looms going really started to push the limits of the machines and took denim to an intimate, small-scale artisan level of experimentation and variety in weights, dyes, etc.

i hope this perspective isn't lost on levi's. sometimes I think it is when i see selvedge products like low-buck stf's (sup j crew) and "global blues" in their stores. while lvc is self-limited to repros of basically the early eras of mass production, they do have an extremely devoted and interested customer base in our niche. it would be wise of them to address their issues within our market. i could see xx, in terms of denim, successfully broadening out into heavy ounce plays on the vintage to reach more of us. like, really nice shit in the post-revival vein.

I totally agree they could never compete with shit like lucky or serfontaine. that "premium" denim market is founded on a very aggressive status symbol mentality, rooted in visual recognition of how much money a person paid for their clothes. even the very use of "premium" selvedge fabric by these companies is a marketed and "synergized" visual cue. the levi's workwear history and ethos just doesn't jive with it. it's too deep in people's perceptions.

Am I the only one that wants to hear more about what this guy has to say? This thread has turned into must read material for me over the last couple of days.

[Madder_Lake]

Just got a '47 from the FW 11 Collection. Unlike the '47 from SS11 the denim is much more blue in the current run. They look definitely like my 2008/9 '47. I think I will take some pics when the lighting is better.

I just got a new pair of 47's and I can't see any difference between the denim in these and the denim in the 44's. Look and feel is the same, and unlike my 47's from early 2010. (Of course I have no idea when any of these pairs were manufactured, so this is just an observation…)

[Lex2]

i hope this perspective isn't lost on levi's. sometimes I think it is when i see selvedge products like low-buck stf's (sup j crew) and "global blues" in their stores. while lvc is self-limited to repros of basically the early eras of mass production, they do have an extremely devoted and interested customer base in our niche. it would be wise of them to address their issues within our market. i could see xx, in terms of denim, successfully broadening out into heavy ounce plays on the vintage to reach more of us. like, really nice shit in the post-revival vein.

I totally agree they could never compete with shit like lucky or serfontaine. that "premium" denim market is founded on a very aggressive status symbol mentality, rooted in visual recognition of how much money a person paid for their clothes. even the very use of "premium" selvedge fabric by these companies is a marketed and "synergized" visual cue. the levi's workwear history and ethos just doesn't jive with it. it's too deep in people's perceptions.

I think a company like Nudies has shown that the entire workwear/rockwear ethos can jibe with the status-defined premium market, though it's probably more the former than the latter. It was a stroke of genius to be able to get people to buy a pair of Regular Ralfs, and then insist that they not be washed for 6 months. Never mind that raw/dry jeans have been around for over a hundred years, but it took some adroit marketing to be able to sell that "jeans can bleed" mindset. It's 90% innovative marketing, but if it contributes to the bottom line it cannot be all that bad. Other startups have not been as successful, even with some great products. A great example is 5ep - so much potential, but too little, and too late. Their low down bootcut jeans are still some of the best I've ever purchased, bar none. Ditto Rag and Bone, though they're still in the premium streetwear business. UNIQLO has shown that selvage offerings can have mass market appeal, without the aesthetics of higher end designs. Coupled with their extensive distributorships in Asia, they've also been partly responsible for declining Levi's sales in Japan and most of the region. It's a cut throat business to be in at the moment, judging from the independent companies that have come and gone since about the year 2000. It would be interesting to see how Denizen fares in Asia, since they've put in a lot of capital in this new brand to reach out to an expanding Asian middle class.

[Madder_Lake]

It was a stroke of genius to be able to get people to buy a pair of Regular Ralfs, and then insist that they not be washed for 6 months. Never mind that raw/dry jeans have been around for over a hundred years, but it took some adroit marketing to be able to sell that "jeans can bleed" mindset. It's 90% innovative marketing,

Well, since it is perfectly true, I don't think it can be correct to say that it's 90% marketing. And I don't understand the logic of saying "Never mind that raw/dry jeans have been around for over a hundred years,…" Yes they have and people have adopted some exotic strategies to make them look how they want. Waiting six months before washing would have been a difficult path to take in 1955 -- 1972 since Levis came with so much starch that they would have been impossible to wear. Don't put all that starch in and suddenly not washing for 6 months becomes feasible. This is not some marketing conspiracy — it is a way to get the kind of jeans that many people want. Not all, but many.

[Lex2]

Well, since it is perfectly true, I don't think it can be correct to say that it's 90% marketing. And I don't understand the logic of saying "Never mind that raw/dry jeans have been around for over a hundred years,…" Yes they have and people have adopted some exotic strategies to make them look how they want. Waiting six months before washing would have been a difficult path to take in 1955 -- 1972 since Levis came with so much starch that they would have been impossible to wear. Don't put all that starch in and suddenly not washing for 6 months becomes feasible. This is not some marketing conspiracy — it is a way to get the kind of jeans that many people want. Not all, but many.

You're correct, but I was actually referring to a more recent timeframe, i.e. 1999, when Nudies first came out, people were already customising their sanforized/dry denim before the aggressive Nudies marketing, albeit in a low key manner. I was probably overstating the marketing, but I hope not my much. Although they make a good pair of jeans, I would rate their products as average relative to similar competition, except for maybe the greycast and veggie indigo Ralfs that came out a couple of years ago. Nudies is privately owned, so it'd be difficult to estimate exactly how much they've spent on marketing in the early years, but I would assume that it would have been quite significant, and this I attribute to the fact that they've reached a global audience in quite a short period of time.

Edited December 13, 2011 by Lex2

[eightfoldpath]

You'd think, but with all the people that participate on sufu I don't know of anyone other than myself that has picked up a pair of the 22s.

Tough to gauge a market just through sufu, but I wonder if there's been an over all decline in interest for pre-wwii or pre-depression style denim (regardless of brand).

I dunno, but I bought a pair of '22s and '66s this weekend and while I like the '66s i really love the '22s. It would be sad to see the older models disappear because they are unpopular!

[Madder_Lake]

You're correct, but I was actually referring to a more recent timeframe, i.e. 1999, when Nudies first came out, people were already customising their sanforized/dry denim before the aggressive Nudies marketing, albeit in a low key manner. I was probably overstating the marketing, but I hope not my much. Although they make a good pair of jeans, I would rate their products as average relative to similar competition, except for maybe the greycast and veggie indigo Ralfs that came out a couple of years ago. Nudies is privately owned, so it'd be difficult to estimate exactly how much they've spent on marketing in the early years, but I would assume that it would have been quite significant, and this I attribute to the fact that they've reached a global audience in quite a short period of time.

Yes, I agree. As they have exploded in popularity their product has gotten weaker. It's a shame really.

On another note, thanks to Maynard on this forum, I am now the proud owner of a pair of LVC 37's — they arrived about an hour ago. I think they are going to be favourites of mine. They are a great cut, and a much softer hand than I expected them to be. Just beautiful.

[Sansome1877]

We received a box full of LVC clothing in time for our book meeting tonight... Russ is wearing a sunset shirt and a pair of 1890's XX.

Charla is wearing a pair of 1978's 501's... Last pic is a rough layout of Russ and Charla's new work wear book.

[eltopo]

Can't wait for the book! Awesome stuff Samsone, everybody looks great in their LVC.

[jyoni]

Nice photos, sansome!

All I can say about lvc v. nudies is that nudies seems to fully accept this niche market as their foundation/lifeblood. they work with it, market to it, and cater to it, and they certainly measure their success more modestly than levi's does. when levi's calls lvc a "loss leader" i really don't even know what they mean by that. the word "loss" is a tricky one in big-time american business, particulary in corporate culture. it can often mean nothing more than less-massive-profits, or less-super-wealth, rather than actual real loss. lvc dough will never gild the ceo's balls nor encrust them with rubies, but i find it hard to believe it wasn't/isn't sustaining itself in a pragmatic, modest way.

[tropicalbird]

Yea, it is so easy to sell jeans that cost 6x more yet looks nearly identical to a $40 pair. Anything is hard to believe if you narrow your mind on forums and dismiss everything else.

[Maynard Friedman]

Nice photos, sansome!

All I can say about lvc v. nudies is that nudies seems to fully accept this niche market as their foundation/lifeblood. they work with it, market to it, and cater to it, and they certainly measure their success more modestly than levi's does. when levi's calls lvc a "loss leader" i really don't even know what they mean by that. the word "loss" is a tricky one in big-time american business, particulary in corporate culture. it can often mean nothing more than less-massive-profits, or less-super-wealth, rather than actual real loss. lvc dough will never gild the ceo's balls nor encrust them with rubies, but i find it hard to believe it wasn't/isn't sustaining itself in a pragmatic, modest way.

I'm not sure about how LVC is a loss leader either, I think this is a misnomer. The term is used when you bought something deliberately discounted by a company, like a razor so that you then have to buy the vastly over-priced blades to actually use the thing - the blades are subsidising the razors so the manufacturers get their money back another way. With LVC, you have an expensive (some might say over-priced product) in the first place - they're not subsidising or hooking the customer into other, more expensive products.

Madder - glad they worked out for you.

[Lex2]

Yearly revenue for Nudies is probably somewhere above 50 million US dollars at the moment (if not more). As a whole Levi's makes about 4 billion a year in revenue, of which 80% comes from the Levi's Global Brand (i.e. excluding Dockers and Signature/Denizen). That's 3.2 billion just from sales of Levi's apparel alone (Walmart, Kohls, JC Penney, specialty stores, you name it). Assuming Levi's Premium makes about a fifth of what Nudies makes a year (being very optimistic here) that's still less than a percent of their overall business revenue. In short, Levi's Vintage/M&C are probably of little consequence to their financial performance. As a matter of fact I am actually impressed that they're still bothering to market such a line of clothing.

[entertainment]

Really looking forward to getting both of your new books! Keep up the good work so I don't have to buy any more Japanese books/magazines with texts that I don't understand just to get the pictures.

Your father-in-law and Charla both look great in their LVC duds, too.

We received a box full of LVC clothing in time for our book meeting tonight... Russ is wearing a sunset shirt and a pair of 1890's XX.

Charla is wearing a pair of 1978's 501's... Last pic is a rough layout of Russ and Charla's new work wear book.

Edited December 13, 2011 by entertainment

[jyoni]

Yea, it is so easy to sell jeans that cost 6x more yet looks nearly identical to a $40 pair. Anything is hard to believe if you narrow your mind on forums and dismiss everything else.

whoa i get it, but we're not talking about a guy like benzak, hacking his way through the underbelly. lvc is pretty established. i can count the denimheads i know in real life, on one hand. but i know alot of people with normal everyday style who like the brand. they know it by different monikers, lvc, big e, redline...but they like the stuff. that's got alot going for it.

[jyoni]

I just got a new pair of 47's and I can't see any difference between the denim in these and the denim in the 44's. Look and feel is the same, and unlike my 47's from early 2010. (Of course I have no idea when any of these pairs were manufactured, so this is just an observation…)

hope this question makes sense...do the 47s feel light, or do the 44s feel heavy?

when the lvc contest was gearing up, i had to exchange my original pair of 44 for another. The first pair i had in-hand was quite heavy. The hand and weight was indistinguishable to me between two pairs of nwt 47s. the second pair i received was more what i would expect from the 44s, very light and a little soft. i thought it was a bit odd. the heavy pair was a later season and had canvas pockets. the light pair i went ahead with has herringbone pocketbags and is season 0840.

[Madder_Lake]

hope this question makes sense...do the 47s feel light, or do the 44s feel heavy? when the lvc contest was gearing up, i had to exchange my original pair of 44 for another. The first pair i had in-hand was quite heavy. The hand and weight was indistinguishable to me between two pairs of nwt 47s. the second pair i received was more what i would expect from the 44s, very light and a little soft. i thought it was a bit odd. the heavy pair was a later season and had canvas pockets. the light pair i went ahead with has herringbone pocketbags and is season 0840.

Yup you are right. My 44's are as heavy as the 47's and say in the accompanying letter that they are 12 oz's dry, not 10. They have green canvas pocketbags. The texture is quite smooth and finished, compared to my 55's for example. The 37's that I've just received are lighter and softer, more what I expected the 44's to be.

[entertainment]

1937s are supposed to be 10oz before washing. 1944s like 1947s are supposed to be 12 oz before washing.

Edit: I meant to include the source of this information. It is from 501: The Evolution of the Jean by Lynn Downey, published by Levi Strauss (2008) pp. 16-21.

Edited December 14, 2011 by entertainment

[jyoni]

I've let it go. if sufu allows two-digit number searches, you'll find a wee can of worms about it somewhere in this thread. there's dissonant provenance on both weights.

did you get them from Dejan, madder_lake? if so, his gig will accomodate you well to help get what you think is right. they were very helpful with my exchange. i did have to eat shipping but so it goes.

[Madder_Lake]

I've let it go. if sufu allows two-digit number searches, you'll find a wee can of worms about it somewhere in this thread. there's dissonant provenance on both weights.

did you get them from Dejan, madder_lake? if so, his gig will accomodate you well to help get what you think is right. they were very helpful with my exchange. i did have to eat shipping but so it goes.

Yeah, I'm not so unhappy with them that I want to swap. even if they had my size in the older production run. It will be interesting to see if wear turns up any differences with the 47s. It might. The sizing is certainly different. 2" different at the same waist size.

[setterman]

Yeah, I'm not so unhappy with them that I want to swap. even if they had my size in the older production run. It will be interesting to see if wear turns up any differences with the 47s. It might. The sizing is certainly different. 2" different at the same waist size.

Let me guess, 47s measure tagged size, 44s are two inches bigger than tagged? I wish LVC would settle on their sizing.... 47s... true to tagged size, 22s and 55s.... three inches bigger than tagged, 66s... one inch bigger than tagged. No wonder like 50% of the questions in this thread are about sizing.

[Madder_Lake]

Let me guess, 47s measure tagged size, 44s are two inches bigger than tagged?

Yup. The 44's feel huge compared to the 47's.

Edit the feel of these new 47's and 44's has made me wonder if they were made with Cone's supply of pima cotton. This is from the interview that Paul T. did with Ralph Tharpe in January. (see the Cone thread.)

"Tell me more about the Pima fill; how does that affect the feel?

The other thing about that yarn is that it has a very low twist. It makes the fabric look smoother. In that way it's like the exact opposite of the 1980s XX. The old XX marbles and gets the orange peel because of all the internal tensions as it's washed. The lower the twist, the smoother the fabric - and the more authentic. Fabrics today are made with very high level of internal energy – they're very nervous, uptight, so when you throw them in the water they go nuts, crinkle up, produce that orange peel effect. Fabrics made in the old way were woven more gently on the slower looms, with less tension.The Japanese call it gentle weaving. Cone looms are making gentle weaving every day."

Edited December 14, 2011 by Madder_Lake

[tropicalbird]

Good you brought it up madder_lake. Does anybody have shots of marble "orange peel" effect? I think I've seen it on some Japanese repro's.

[Lex2]

Marbling seems to be characteristic of older denim, and gives them a lot of their character. I guess it's a matter of personal taste, considering some companies even go out of their way to marble denim. Not sure if "fabrics made in the old way" were "woven gently on the slower looms", though. Sounds like a bit of marketing-speak there. If I wanted low tension I'd get some jeans in broken twill selvage.