The cost of the raw denim lifestyle

[rnrswitch]

anyone else remember fight club?

'no matter what, i have the sofa situation covered...', or something like that.

i guess i shouldn't be surprised fight club finds itself in this discussion.

I thought about that too while I was typing it.

[rnrswitch]

Nobody said anything about rules. Since this is a fashion forum I’m not gonna criticize people for compulsive consumerism—that comes with the territory, and some members have interests in other forum members buying 200 workshirts, no matter how it looks. I'm not going to come to a fashion forum and start talking about responsible, sustainable consumption.

But if we’re talking purely about style-what you’re wearing, not what’s in your closet-then I would definitely say that some people pull off the look and some don’t. And it just so happens that those who look ridiculous and propped up by their stiff as fuck, pitch black 22 oz. denim and horsehide gear tend to be the same people whose every other post is a “look what I just bought†post.

If you told me they found 450 pairs of crispy Lees in James Dean's flaming, mangled trunk-I'd still think he was a stylish motherfucker.

Hilarious.

[setterman]

I've been mulling this over in my head as of late: is the lifestyle we here all share more expensive than a more traditional fashion lifestyle? Excluding outliers like the compulsive collectors or extravagant fashonista. Over the life cycle of a pair of raw denim does another man spend the same amount on pants?

Been watching this thread evolve over the past couple days, and I'll jump by addressing your initial question. I'll start with a few assumptions.... When you say "pants' you mean jeans, and when you say "raw denim" you're referring to premium/MIJ denim. There's only one pair of premium denim being worn (a flawed assumption, because we all buy multiple pairs), and that that pair of jeans cost somewhere in the $200 to $300 range.

So, starting with those assumptions, it's crazy to think that one pair of premium denim is going to outlast the three pair of Levis 505's I could buy for around $100, regardless of your opinion of Levis' current product. There is obviously a a difference in components and attention to detail between the two (but that comes with the territory when you're in the business of producing millions of pairs of jeans vs thousands, or even tens of thousands, a year). But when it comes to the over all survivability of the two products, Levis aren't the rags some here make them out to be, and premium denim isn't the iron they're made out be. The crotch blow outs (WTF is with those? I've never had a pair of jeans do that, even with years of wear) and various patch jobs in the denim repair thread clearly show that. Up until March '09 when I bought my first pair of MIJ jeans, I was wearing 505s, usually only two or three pair at a time. Took around three years until the knees wore out, tore, and I considered them no longer wearable. No way one pair of premium denim is going to hold up that long with daily wear unless they're super heavy 20+ oz ones.

Couple other things I want to hit on that have been brought up in this thread. Some members have been mentioned by name in regard to their buying and posting habits, and their personal style. I'll just say that I think it's in poor taste to mention them by name.

Profit margins on premium denim are just as big as than they are on brands like Levis, Lee, etc. Don't fool yourself. In the thead about that festival held recently in Japan, Warehouse jeans were selling for as low as $40 (and you know they weren't loosing money on that deal), and Samuria was what, more than $100 to $150 less than US retail, right? Figure the actual cost in labor in materials for your average pair of MIJ jeans is under $50. In some cases, probably well under $50. Sell those at $150 to $300 a pair, you're doing very well.

Kiya and Gordon (but especially Kiya), and my hats off to both of them, are shrewd business men, playing off the hype that seems to be so easily generated here. Kiya pretty much admitted in that interview recently posted here that much of what you're paying for when you buy items from Self Edge and BiG, is the designers name. You're being sold the sizzle. $145 for a Sugar Cane belt.... the whole Mister Freedom line.... are you fucking kidding me?!

I know I'm taking it in the ass when I buy my MIJ jeans, but I don't care. I've wanted 40s and 50s style jeans for years, and I'm willing to pay for them. I know the game, I know what I'm getting, and don't have any illusions about the deal. And I sure as hell know I'm not saving money!

[RRLselvageDenim]

In light of the comments i've read here so far, I would like to add my 2 cents. I think in terms of value for money $145 for a Sugarcane belt and a $40 bandana is just throwing money down the drain (More power to you if you don't mind dropping that kind of dough) I've been around long enough in the fashion industry to make the distinction between value and a rip off. Granted if you can afford to drop that kind of money (good for you) - Most of you here a young and don't have families so you have that kind of disposable income. I've spent a ton of money on Sammies, LVC, Fullcount, & Ironhearts. I don't have a problem dropping that kind of money on denim but the workshirts IMO going for the same prices as the Denim doesn't meet my value/quality test. I've picked up some really good RRL workshirts for half the price on ebay over the years. The Buzz Ricksons / Cushman sweats are worth the prices. For example I bought a pair of Ironheart 634 at selfedge a few years ago for about $275 or so only to find out the Anniversary 634SR price sky rocked to $450 -- How does one justify spending $450 on a pair of 634SR when the basic difference is the back pocket stitching and give or take a few minor differences. I have a bunch of unworn stuff in my closet and wish I could enjoy them, but the fact of the matter is you can only break in one pair at a time. I've be wearing my LVC 44 Japan everyday for the past 3 months. So in light of this economy, I'm no hurry to drop major Dollars on these items epescially when they'll just sit in the closet anyway. I'd rather see my bank account grow than watch my closet space grow - I'll leave that to you young folks with money to burn.

[akuma no uta]

some thoughts

1. in the original question asked, my answer would have to be that for each particular consumer the answer will be different. i for example, have purchased two pairs of jeans in the past 2 1/2 years, and 5 nice shirts. thats not very much money spent.

2. as for quality, really/ people are still even questioning quality? jesus you people are slow. selvedge denim is essentially still 100 % cotton, same as any other denim, meaning its going to breakl. now brands that are 100% cotton overall (samurai, sugarcane etc) may not necessarily be "lower quality" becasue their shit falls apart quicker, but rather just a different breed of animal.

3. this is fashion, im sick of people trying to 'justify' a purchase of $300 ironhearts becasue they are "higher craftsmanship," or "better quality" or whatever, how about yopu buy them becasue you like them and you can afford them? or how about becasue the fit you well? fuck any other reason

4. it seems mf is getting a lot of unwarranted hate in this thread, and all i wanna say is, name another designer who incorporates vintage 'old-stock" hardware, fabrics, and accessories into their line and you can find another designer with those prices.

5. oh, and wayyyyy to cal a few people out. why? theyre "hypebeasty?" nah, they're just ballin, and you're obviously jealous.

[jpsmith98]

Couple other things I want to hit on that have been brought up in this thread. Some members have been mentioned by name in regard to their buying and posting habits, and their personal style. I'll just say that I think it's in poor taste to mention them by name.

5. oh, and wayyyyy to cal a few people out. why? theyre "hypebeasty?" nah, they're just ballin, and you're obviously jealous.

Since I named some names, I should probably respond to this:

How can we talk about fashion without having specific instances of it to talk about? It's a lot more complicated to say "Imagine a hypothetical style of outfit in which one wears nothing but expensive, dark, rigid denim from a limited number of related designers" instead of saying "zissou." Which leads to my next point...

If you're going to take a picture of yourself and post it on the internet, you have to expect some sort of criticism of it. I don't know any of these dudes personally, I'm sure they're nice, I'm not criticizing them personally. zissou is obviously "ballin" as you put it, he's posted shots from inside his nice looking house and he's wearing nice shit. but i'm not criticizing his personality, or his interior design, I'm talking about his clothes. I don't like them, I said why.

Sure it's all subjective, people can do what they want, etc. etc. But there has to be better ways of wearing certain items than others. I feel like people are reading these posts as "BLABLABLA MFSC SUCKS BLABLABLA I HATE ZISSOU BLABLABLA"

[kiya]

Profit margins on premium denim are just as big as than they are on brands like Levis, Lee, etc. Don't fool yourself. In the thead about that festival held recently in Japan, Warehouse jeans were selling for as low as $40 (and you know they weren't loosing money on that deal), and Samuria was what, more than $100 to $150 less than US retail, right? Figure the actual cost in labor in materials for your average pair of MIJ jeans is under $50. In some cases, probably well under $50. Sell those at $150 to $300 a pair, you're doing very well.

This is a perfect case of Message Board Syndrome.

You've spent some time on a board and think you know what you're talking about. What you just said couldn't be any further from the truth.

Margins on the brands you listed are 2.3x to 2.7x, margins on the brands sold at SE and BiG are 1.7x to 2x, that is considerable lower. If you know the slightest bit about how the retail industry works you'd know this, and also know that it's extremely difficult to be profitable when selling all your products at 1.7x to 2x when you're playing a game competing with others that have mark-ups which are up to 30% higher than yours, but you're overhead is the same, and sometimes higher. Why do you think stores like Barney's or Fred Segal haven't picked up any of these Japanese lines? I know why, because i've fielded emails and calls from all those stores for three years, they want better margins, there's no way they'd pick up a line at that mark-up.

Also, if you think Warehouse wasn't losing money on selling a pair of jeans for $40 at Inazuma, you also have a very large misconception of how much it costs to produce jeans in Japan.

i think it's humorous that somebody can get on a message board and spout off completely misinformation like it's the truth and others will believe it, talking about production costs in an industry you know nothing about.

[DrMoBueno]

does it count as style when it appears someone walked into a store and pointed at the display and says, "i'll have what he's having"?

as i said before. these people are good for laughs. how can one not laugh when confronted with a photo of someone whittling next to stuffed animals or playing a banjo in some of these outfits?

especially when this stuff will never see its way into the evo thread. because there will always be something else to move on to. and that banjo outfit's ultimate destination is the back of the closet or the supermarket.

i don't care what people do with their money. i did not tell them to post pictures that make me laugh. i have no opinion on how they spend their money, but i am entitled to my opinion on how they present themselves on this site.

no hate, and [LOL] certainly no jealousy.

[Paul T]

there's a lot of throwing stones on this thread. But I think we should all admit that, by virtue of being on SuFu, we're all living in a house with glass walls, doors and roof.

Zissou, IIRC, tried dyeing his own fabric with woad or indigo plants. Yes, he is obviously demented, and deserves respect.

[mpcec]

I don't really get the "it won't turn up in an evo thread" criticism. What does that even say? If you're a collector and own tons of pairs of jeans then is the criticism that he is wearing multiple pairs of different jeans? Is it wrong that someone isn't solely wearing one pair of jeans every day? And using that criticism in regards to mister freedom stuff, a lot of people aren't going to wear their mister freedom gear literally every day like cotton and xcoalesce so wear would take much longer to develop and pictures wouldn't really be worth posting. The "something else to move on to" point I also don't understand. The people being referred to are buying more clothes within the general aesthetic they are going for, it's not as if they are hopping from one trend to the next.

People sell off old pieces and flip their wardrobes all the time (myself included.) What is the criticism of that? I got +reps from some people who thought it was smart I was selling my mfsc shit calling it gimmicky or specifically "all hype" but that isn't it at all. The fact of the matter is that I have a small budget and a change in aesthetic means I can't afford to hold on to pieces I love that I won't be wearing all the time. I've only seen a few people here sell that stuff and most of the time it's because it doesn't fit, not because they are sick of the piece. I don't think selling in the market speaks at all about the brand being sold but more about the seller.

And at the "denim mannequin" argument. The people in question clearly have created a rapport with that store and are loyal. They could pick up similar products from different brands or buy vintage but they don't. You can easily pick out who the people are who mainly wear SE Gear but thats partially because Kiya is a big part of this subforum and I'm sure you all browse the SE thread and see his product updates. If someone came on here wearing all Context or all stuff from Take5 or BiG you probably wouldn't even notice.

[rnrswitch]

there's a lot of throwing stones on this thread. But I think we should all admit that, by virtue of being on SuFu, we're all living in a house with glass walls, doors and roof.

Zissou, IIRC, tried dyeing his own fabric with woad or indigo plants. Yes, he is obviously demented, and deserves respect.

I understand this and i am sure that it hasn't come across in my posts, but I include myself in a lot of the criticisms of over consumption. Being on this thread almost certainly means that we are not "legit," but sometimes I feel like the hypeness is lowering the overall quality of this board. I liked the discussions about different types of dying (and yes I loved zissou's posts about cultivating indigo), i loved the first 15 or so pages of the MFSC thread, but it has turned ridiculous as of late. I think somebody started a thread about weaving denim from looms with the hope to spark some conversation on the entire process, but nothing came of it. A lot of the old denim heads that used to frequent this joint are no longer around sharing knowledge and I am wondering why.

Also, I don't mind some of the staged pics, like the banjo, and I particularly liked eltopos pics of the Left Field canvas pants.

[setterman]

You've spent some time on a board and think you know what you're talking about.

I know a $250 Iron Heart reproduction of a $10 nylon windbreaker is a joke. Same goes for a $225 Full Count hooded sweatshirt, and the only reason anyone could dream of asking those prices, or anyone would be foolish enough to pay them, is because of the names attached to them. People can go on and on about craftsmanship, old looms, and artisans, but it comes down to hype, marketing, and exclusivity.

[DrMoBueno]

*i'm not talking about selfedge. i like the shop and the people. in fact, i put down some ignorance regarding se earlier in this thread, though kiya did a much better job of it.

*this halloween i saw a million kids. i'd ask, "who are you?" and i'd hear, "imma pirate" or "imma astronaut".

i look at these pictures today and i see, "imma mechanic" or "imma lumberjack". which begat,

"imma jacques cousteau" or, apparently what's coming next, "imma marlon brando from wild one".

i own a levi's sawtooth shirt. i don't pair it with 1890 lvc, cowboy boots, an enormous buckle or a cowboy hat. "imma cowboy".

[Medine]

^ I started the thread about weaving denim, and i was pretty disapointed that nothing came of it... it seems like more people should be into that but maybe they just care about there "fadez" and not the actual quality of the product

[rnrswitch]

I know a $250 Iron Heart reproduction of a $10 nylon windbreaker is a joke. Same goes for a $225 Full Count hooded sweatshirt, and the only reason anyone could dream of asking those prices, or anyone would be foolish enough to pay them, is because of the names attached to them. People can go on and on about craftsmanship, old looms, and artisans, but it comes down to hype, marketing, and exclusivity.

Also, in regards to iron heart you have to pay Sonny Barger for his time and effort. I wonder how many hells angels he pulled onto the bandwagon.

[mpcec]

^^^Why won't you let that die? You keep trying to bait Kiya into arguing with you about Sonny Barger and he clearly is ignoring you so just drop it or take it to PMs.

[kiya]

^^^Why won't you let that die? You keep trying to bait Kiya into arguing with you about Sonny Barger and he clearly is ignoring you so just drop it or take it to PMs.

Right?

At least now i know that ad campaign struck a nerve in one person at least.

[jpsmith98]

this thread is starting to remind me of that part in the godfather when clemenza says a gang war is necessary every 5-10 years to clear the bad blood.

[rnrswitch]

^^^Why won't you let that die? You keep trying to bait Kiya into arguing with you about Sonny Barger and he clearly is ignoring you so just drop it or take it to PMs.

I am not trying to bait anybody, I just really like that ad campaign and was hoping that sonny would find his way around here so that he can kick some ass.

...Like I was going to start this vintage Indian (native american) gear line and was going to have Russel Means be the spokesperson for it.

It struck a nerve but it was more on the side of humor. i couldn't believe that a bunch of fashionistas were going to try to befriend a real gangsta. It makes me think of that movie White Boys.

[aso2004]

They don't fit the average hells angel but that's a different matter.

I come from blue collar background and I am proud of that. For the money I spend on denim and sweats and workshirts I could have bought a nice italian suit,and some nice dior denim and all the other stuff I see my collagues and friends wear.

But that's not me and it will never be.

Although I studied and went past the hard labour side of things I did do it when I was in college and I still dress like a normal guy from the floor instead of the desks.

I notice that it also makes me an easier person to talk to for them. but they don't know that i am wearing $ 300 jeans, they think i am wearing jeans period

Only those in the know know

I don't pose for pix but I like to look at the styles these guys bring to the table. It gives me an new insights how to wear my clothes. I think it would be nicer to show a bit of respect for the people who put themselves out there and not to slag them.

Bottom line for me always was what my grandfather used to say..( and he was an imaculate dresser) Why would you wanna look like me or any body else ? That's boring, dress like you and you feel better...

The world will be a better place with diversity. I still wear some of his 1950/60's dress and workshirts.together with the guy on the corner store that is where my roots are and earning more so I can afford stuff that fits me and doesn't smell of mott balls the first thee times I wear them gives me a good feeling.

I still frequent the corner store for my LVC but I also go to other sources now i can afford them

And that's what dressing the way i do makes me happy and I don't care less what anybody else thinks of that. thanx pops

[rnrswitch]

Whoaa, I wish my corner store had LVC. I might be down there all the time.

[erk]

Whoaa, I wish my corner store had LVC. I might be down there all the time.

yeah...that would be pretty great.

[Boxthor]

Wait, they sell jeans for under $200?

I need to find me one of these malls.

I am going to have a talk with one Mr. Babizabi, I feel cheated.

[aso2004]

They don't stock it but they can order it..

But that's the to do with the fact they soldl jeans for over 40 years .

My dad and me still buy our jeans there

My dad is a wrangler man... been wearing the same model for the last 20 years or so.They still keep that on stock or order it in.

It's been handed down but the owner ( who's son and daughter took over the biz) taught me a lot about denim .

He also is jealous that the quality the japanese put into their jeans is hard to find these days. The old levi's used to have that but not with the stuff they produce nowadays.

[haptronic]

the weird thing about the talk about hype and denim is the idea that any of this is new or restricted to the internet/message board phenomenon.

my first pair of jeans were levis imported from america when i was 2 years old these were raw as that was all there was until stonewash was invented [allegedly] by girbaud years later.

the reason that i got levis is because they were the best jeans available at the time as my father believed. ever since i can remember my dad would talk to me about the coolest jeans you could get.

i would be regailed with stories about going to the docks and buying american blue denim off the sailors and then wearing them in the bath in order to shrink them as tight as possible, according to him the best that they could get in 60's new zealand were amco and as styles changed wrangler and then levis.

i was also taught how to inside patch a pair of jeans as they were a living thing meant to get better with age, well to age with you a new pair was never going to be as good as a pair you have had for a long time.

there were legendary stories about gang members with their 'originals' jeans that were never washed only to have a new pair sewn inside them as they became a risk for indecent exposure charges.

the fact that in the 60's these jeans were hard to come by/not sold in new zealand may have in part given my dad his love of them, or perhaps the fact that with indigo you have a living garment that is as individual as the wearer, i honestly don't know which.

what i do know is that whatever was going on then with my dad is so close to the current fetish with japanese jeans that beasting over jeans is not something that was invented with the internet.

[baldy]

u da man hap

[Osmosis Jones]

i don't think it's entirely necessary to try and justify your purchases to somebody who has no idea who you are in real life...

whoever bashed zissou doesn't know jack. i met him at the last superfuture party and the guy is down to earth and an all around nice guy. he shouldn't have to put up with any of this.

[altemp]

What money I would be spending on movies or television I spend on clothing (denim) instead. For some people they aren't substitutes, but for me I spend more time looking at people's "mad fadezz" then I do watching TV or movies. Before, I would spend all my extra income on TV shows/DVDs and before that it was video games and before that it was bike racing. Raw denim is an interest that will likely be replaced by something new in the future for me.

[raWorkshop]

Industrially produced cotton is one of the most destructive and resource intensive plants. Anybody who is buying insane amounts and not using them to their fullest, or rotating/scheduling it so they will, is being fundamentally irresponsible. Labels be damned.

Buying vintage isn't some existential experiment, you do it because it's still there and still good. The energy costs are already sunk.

[RRLselvageDenim]

Industrially produced cotton is one of the most destructive and resource intensive plants. Anybody who is buying insane amounts and not using them to their fullest, or rotating/scheduling it so they will, is being fundamentally irresponsible. Labels be damned.

Buying vintage isn't some existential experiment, you do it because it's still there and still good. The energy costs are already sunk.

Here Here.