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Obviously, there's a range of situations but a blanket closure does not make sense. There are plenty of less absurd measures to take to reduce risk without going full nuclear.

(Even in this picture, families are standing several feet apart and the place is both aerated and bathed in UV. As far as I know there's not a single documented case of beach infection. Granted, the absence of proof is not the proof of an absence, etc.)

 

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Maybe I have been a bit over the top in the way I've handeled this past year but we’ve stayed home for the most of it , country walks and whatnot is the most excitement we’ve had ..... we did go to the beach once or twice but it was October and was freezing so apart from other dog walkers it was empty . Those beach pics last summer just made me sad 

Edited by Flash

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Unfortunately, our populace (in the US I mean) failed to demonstrate that they could avoid large gatherings (and they still fail to demonstrate this). Besides the fact that our government couldn't get up to speed for the first 4 or 5 months (mask good or not, is distancing necessary, etc), the sheer lack of common sense demanded blanket closures as COVID numbers became more dangerously leaning into the 'out of control' category. I'm not trying to make this beloved place of denim political, but have a look at the data for southern states and the failure to distance properly. The whole thing has been a complete cluster made worse by political rhetoric from even the best-meaning folks. 

This is new territory for us, so there are bound to be some intellectual failures as policy becomes largely reactionary. The real kicker has been the transfer of wealth... 

Anywho my Levi's 201s are fading faster than @Maynard Friedman told me they would :O must be from sitting around for 12 years! 

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29 minutes ago, JDelage said:

Obviously, there's a range of situations but a blanket closure does not make sense. There are plenty of less absurd measures to take to reduce risk without going full nuclear.

(Even in this picture, families are standing several feet apart and the place is both aerated and bathed in UV. As far as I know there's not a single documented case of beach infection. Granted, the absence of proof is not the proof of an absence, etc.)

 

I totally agree with your basic premise Joss - it’s just a memory of the wilful stupidity people are capable of, and then perhaps the reason why rules need to be stricter than should be necessary. Ryan says it well when he says it’s sad

Edited by Duke Mantee

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My wife is a healthcare worker. 
she had covid and still has chest problems months after it. 
say what you will about things being stupid, but dealing with it first hand is something I’d never wish on anyone. 
having to keep your young children from seeing their mom or dad for two weeks or more is heartbreaking. 
I will continue to obey the rules and call people out for not adhering to the rules. 
Try working construction sweating your ass off, fogged up safety glasses all day because you have to wear a mask. 
If you want to work construction in WA it’s masks all day and social distance. 
I’ve seen many idiots get kicked off the jobs for thinking they’re too cool to follow the laws. 
Sorry for the rant but it’s a very personal subject to me. 

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Nobody is saying this is not a serious matter, or that one should not follow the rules. Mine was a very specific comment, about a very narrow subject: beach closures.

I wish your wife the best, and I hope she recovers fully, and quickly. 

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I don’t go to packed beaches but I don’t live (completely, though mainly!) like a hermit and keep my kids entirely away from their friends. Nor do I let my elderly father fend for himself. There is a common sense middle ground, I use my own judgement and I’m not reliant on a government to make all my decisions for me.

Edited by Maynard Friedman

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For me, the controversy around adhering to social distancing rules, respecting closures and so forth speaks to one of the weakest points of individualist societies: atomization and self-preservation, often manifesting as ignorance and selfishness. Say what you will about China and its politics, but to me it’s undeniable that its collectivist social structure and single-party government instill a sense of solidarity among its people, and enable a sort of long-term strategic planning, that is practically inconceivable in the West. It saddens me to see us moving further away from the internationalism and global community-building that seemed so palpable in the 60s and 70s, and towards an understanding of humanity dominated by cultural, national and economic difference that encourages fear and violence over curiosity and understanding. Obviously each of us can only take responsibility for our own actions, but sometimes it feels like it is so easy to act only on the basis of immediate individual desire, and without consideration for our and our community’s long-term interests.

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With a family full of immune compromised individuals it also keeps us from breaking away from the masks and distancing. 
It’s nice that some decide to ignore that and not be governed by the man. 
I get it. I don’t agree with it but I see where you’re coming from. 
we all have our own way of doing things and that’s part of what makes the world so great. 

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@chicote - is this the same China that welded shut entrance doorways of blocks of flats to prevent the spread of Covid-19? Perhaps it’s the China that has created re-education camps for Uighur Muslims? They’re certainly setting a high bar for us all...

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@Maynard Friedman Yes, it’s the same China. Praising one element of its society doesn’t necessitate excusing any of its abuses or excesses, just as praising any part of Europe or North America won’t preclude criticism of its concentration camps, proto-fascist nationalist governments, or histories of violent imperialism.

I’d like to think that any society, at any moment in history, has elements within it that are worthy of study—not necessarily praise, but at least a serious attempt to understand and learn from its successes, as well as its mistakes. The recent tendency to view events and people as unworthy of any further examination because they have done something we’re critical of is, to me, a symptom of the broader social problem I was addressing in my last post: when people aren’t willing to approach uncomfortable or unfamiliar topics with an open and critical mind, their understanding becomes limited to their pre-judgment.

Edited by chicote

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Authoritarian regimes seem pretty terrible for democracy, human flourishing, etc., and so on... but when you need to stop the spread of a virus... :ph34r:

Democracy has its limits! Just like market socialism, just like... 

I've been following the Uighur crisis for a couple of years. Forcing women to drink sterilizing concoctions... it's beyond heinous. 

 

Edited by JMS

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On another note, I hope y'all are making sure to steep your mask in boiling water once a week. 

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I’ve decided that I’m not going to argue in a denim forum with someone who defends an authoritarian regime. It’s like saying “Well, yes, Nazi Germany had its faults but it certainly got things done.”

Edited by Maynard Friedman

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8 minutes ago, JMS said:

On another note, I hope y'all are making sure to steep your mask in boiling water once a week. 

But remember to take it off first ...

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I’ve decided that I’m not going to argue in a denim forum with someone who defends an authoritarian regime.

Edited by Maynard Friedman

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I think you’re missing my point, Maynard. I am not pro-China. I think that their citizens live in a dystopian surveillance state, their government has shown authoritarian and militaristic tendencies towards ethnic minorities and nonviolent protesters, and their nominally planned and controlled economy has largely been taken hostage by multinational corporations. Now, I would also say those things are true about the United States, where I live. Obviously these things are true to different degrees in the two countries, but in my opinion they are valid criticisms of both and there is substantial evidence to back it up.

What im pointing out is that despite the many failures of china’s response to the coronavirus, they were able to contain the spread of the virus extremely effectively, and develop a vaccine that they have distributed hundreds of millions of doses of, both to their own citizens as well as to other countries around the world. Compare this to the US or UK, where lurching and contradictory lockdown procedures have done very little to stem the spread of the virus, and where multiple for-profit pharmaceutical companies are competing with one another to maximize profits of their vaccines, which our governments are critically limiting international distribution of in order to focus only on their own citizens, and in the process letting both vaccines and manufacturing capacity go to waste.

Again, not praising China’s government, not shit talking everything about Western society. Just pointing out that something as big and complicated as a nation is going to have elements worthy of praise as well as criticism, and one does not preclude the other.

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I think the UK vaccination programme is one of the best in the world but I’ve decided that I’m not going to argue in a denim forum with someone who defends an authoritarian regime.

Edited by Maynard Friedman

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I didn’t say the uk vaccination program is doing poorly; I said they are focusing only on their own citizens, which has the benefit of working well for its own citizens, but has several drawbacks as well. for example, several poorer countries have argued that there should be a temporary waiving of patent for some of the western vaccines so the world as a whole can begin to bring vaccine production online. UK and US governments, as well as their associated vaccine producing companies, refused. the guardian called it “vaccine nationalism”. Our countries’ current practice is working well for its citizens and for its pharmaceutical companies, but in my opinion it’s not the optimal solution.

If our stated goal is to end the coronavirus lockdown everywhere, then china’s approach of international distribution is getting us closer to that goal than the us and uk’s approach has been. that’s all!

Edited by chicote

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I’ve decided that I’m not going to argue in a denim forum with someone who defends an authoritarian regime.

Edited by Maynard Friedman

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Yes, exactly, among other countries which are doing the same thing.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/feb/19/coronavirus-vaccine-diplomacy-west-falling-behind-russia-china-race-influence

Now, the article suggests there might be some favour-buying behind this, as the name “vaccine diplomacy” suggests, and again I’m not disputing that. But I do think it is a better policy, and that our own countries refuse to follow suit because their vaccines are set up for profit is worthy of criticism imo.

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I navigate my own way through this mess dictated by my own personal circumstances, i cycle to work early in the am and if i need anything from Tesco i get there masked up at 6am when there are no other customers, i work on my own so through the week i only come into contact with 3 people.

My wife has a compromised immune system (she hardly left the house since March 2020) she 'was' going through 5yrs of stereotactic radiosurgery where they screw a metal frame to her skull and blast her brain with lazers but sadly that is on hold due to the virus, to manage her pain she's taking high doses of pregabalin which leave her exhausted so she's in bed by 8pm where she's vapourising weed to get her through the night therefore she hasn't worked for a good few years so i have to work longer hours to support the three of us which means my mrs is struggling with home schooling while she's trying to manage her pain which isn't an ideal situation but we have no choice.

We don't want the boy's mental health to suffer from lockdown compounded by the deterioration in his mum's wellbeing so we let him play out as much as possible with his friend from across the road, they both have no siblings. I keep him entertained as much as possible with night hikes, tennis, mtb and other socially distant activities but he's 11, he needs contact with kids his own age.

I also visit my mum which isn't recommended by government guidelines but she lost my dad a few months ago after 50yrs of marriage, socially distant funerals are not pleasant believe me, i too have no siblings so thanks to covid she's lost her entire support network apart from me which only worsens her grief, i don't want her to die of lonliness.

I also do the online food shoping for my 102yr old next door neighbour but i make sure that everything is wiped down with denatured ethanol before i take it around.

If anyone thinks im breaking lockdown rules (which i clearly am) i really don't give a crap, i'm muddling my way through the best i can but on the up, my mrs has had the vaccine, so has my mum, so have the parents of my kids friend so has my neighbour :)

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Excellent work OO... any more about your entry through the cobbles and cellars? 

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5 minutes ago, MJF9 said:

Excellent work OO... any more about your entry through the cobbles and cellars? 

Here you go.. there was no guarantee this collapse would give me enrty but the sun even shines on a dogs arse some days..

 

fullsizeoutput_22e.jpeg

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Now that’s enterprising - fair play

I can only imagine the faces on the passers by as you lowered yourself in... and, perhaps more so, as you hoisted yourself out

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On 1/12/2021 at 1:01 PM, Duke Mantee said:

I love (LOVE) fondue and over the years I’ve experimented with a number of variations so I’ve gotten to taste quite a few Alp/bergkäse ... although the Freiburger Vacherin + Gruyère is my favourite 

Check this biz out Mike, our cheese order from the deli has just been delivered and in the box are a few sample cheeses to try, one of which is Gjetost Gudbrandsdalen, Norwegian brown cheese, ive never tried it before, Wowzers its like a cheesy Caramac!

fullsizeoutput_2dc7.jpeg

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