Jeans of the Old West: A History

[aho]

40 plus pairs?!?!? Eagerly awaiting...

[Sansome1877]

40 plus pairs?!?!? Eagerly awaiting...

Sorry, I don't think it will be 40 full pair. I will take a full pair count, as soon as I get things sorted out.

[rodeo bill]

lovely rivet pics, thanks Michael! sorry to have buggered up the cool old photo vibe with nasty plastic!

[Maynard Friedman]

Sansome, love the pics man. Ain't nothin like some nice macros of hardware. You should post those pics in the hardware thread. A genius started that thread I heard.

http://www.superfuture.com/supertalk/showthread.php?t=160746

I heard it was a jeanius

[rnrswitch]

Is that the humor commonly referred to as a "pun" by humans?

[Dr_Heech]

Thanks Heech, book is going to be from 1860 to 1925, we have trippled our information since the first book. Second book will be complete in about 4 months, the Levi chapter is going to be huge(40 plus pairs and tons of new information) I found that pair that you wanted pictures of, I will send the pictures tomorrow.

It just gets better and better .

There's some big gaps in the Levis info/history even Lynn Downey admits she cant fill in. I dont think they have that many pairs of 1907-1926 'cos they always throw in the big guns: 'Homer' (c1917) + 'Heath' (1927).

So many unanswered questions regarding construction, waistbands, rivets..etc.

Cant wait !

[roy6]

A similar button from the LVC 1915 chino, not as nice a font/layout on this version:

[rodeo bill]

I think your correct about a die, my father in law thinks that a hammer and some kind of tool was used.

I found this image:

which I imagine is similar in action to the second of the horrible plastic pictures I posted on the last page? My guess is you put the rivet in the clamp and then hammer down onto the handle? $45 if anyone wants this one

[Sansome1877]

[Sansome1877]

Nice button photo roy6! Don't worry about the plastic rodeo, interesting tool you posted! Did you see it on ebay?

[Sansome1877]

This is a 1875 piece of Cheang Quan Wo / Heynemann? This fragment has

no watch pocket, no back pocket, split back and a crude cinch strap. By 1876 Wo & Greenebaum brothers would use denim and leather reinforcements pieces, to strengthen the pocket corners.

[bluegoldblues]

Could someone explain to a poor englishman how one goes about walking in to the desert and finds these exquisite vintage denim samples??? really dont get it.. do you dig for them??go down old mines..I'm clueless???

Might find a roman coin if I'm lucky here...

ps this book is on my xmas list!

[setterman]

I think this guy could be wearing an 1879 Levi blouse, Roy6 has a repro of this blouse/jacket. I don't think a physical example of this jacket has ever been found? Pocket flaps started showing up in 1878, on Levi competitors clothing, so I think this Levi blouse existed with pocket flaps? An early 1874-76 Levi blouse is in the book on page 33, no flaps on that one.

The pistol on his hip appears to be a Smith & Wesson New Model #3. That would place the photo as being 1878 or later, if that's any help.

[Sansome1877]

Could someone explain to a poor englishman how one goes about walking in to the desert and finds these exquisite vintage denim samples??? really dont get it.. do you dig for them??go down old mines..I'm clueless???

Might find a roman coin if I'm lucky here...

ps this book is on my xmas list!

Some things are found in mines, if you get permission on private property then digging works well. You have to know the history of the town, like if it was inhabited for a very long period of time then you can't easily date the items found. if the town started in 1865 and died in 1882 then you know what you find is going to be between that time period. The west is so vast, there are hundred of towns and mining camps that died and have been deserted ever since.

You also need knowledge of how they lived......because almost all of the structures are gone, so you are looking at a flat dry desert......so there are certain ways to tell where the houses and building used to be.........

I hope you enjoy the book.

[Sansome1877]

setterman, it must nice to be so versed in firearms, had that been an 1890's pistol, then my 1879 jacket theory, would most likely be incorrect.

Good call the other day on Vern Miller's 300 Savage, I saw his gun a few months ago, its the one my wife hunts with...still works great.

[setterman]

setterman, it must nice to be so versed in firearms, had that been an 1890's pistol, then my 1879 jacket theory, would most likely be incorrect.

Good call the other day on Vern Miller's 300 Savage, I saw his gun a few months ago, its the one my wife hunts with...still works great.

Your wife is a woman of style and taste!

S&W made the New Model #3 from 1878 to the early 1900s. So that photo could be from any time within that time frame. The pistol just says it's definetly not from before 1878.

I see where someone mentioned that photo is from the 1900s. If I was taking a wild ass guess, I'd have gone with the 1880s or 1890s, which would fit the time frame for the pistol and the blouse.

[zissou]

Bless my Dad, who bought me a copy of the book for Christmas. I snuck it into the Amazon wish list for my daughter

[crownzip]

Beautiful photos of the old glass bottles. I take it they're treasures from your mine explorations?

[Sansome1877]

You would be hard pressed to find anything like this in a mine. We used to dig on private property years back, these bottles come from out houses, cellars and wells.

[Joseph Hill]

I've been showing my copy to anyone who will sit still and look at it. I showed it to my brother (who happens to be the head archivist in charge of acquisitions at the main library of the University of Washington), and he was quite interested. I'll be sending him some details of it, and the UW may get a copy (if one hasn't already been purchased).

I've been looking at the swatch you sent me, and it apears to be a 2 to 1 twill. You mentioned it as being 1870s, does that imply that you know which jeans it came from?

[Sansome1877]

I've been showing my copy to anyone who will sit still and look at it. I showed it to my brother (who happens to be the head archivist in charge of acquisitions at the main library of the University of Washington), and he was quite interested. I'll be sending him some details of it, and the UW may get a copy (if one hasn't already been purchased).

I've been looking at the swatch you sent me, and it apears to be a 2 to 1 twill. You mentioned it as being 1870s, does that imply that you know which jeans it came from?

The piece I sent you was part of a leg, It looks like Levi or Neustadter bros, most companies in the early 1870's used 2x1 fabric. The waist band was not attached so I am only guessing what company the pant piece came from.

[fardin]

hey mike finaly got the book today. i couldnt wait all this time and now it is here. so congrats. so you colaborated with warehouse on their new duckdiggers line ? i cant wait for the greenebaum bros pants. love those front pockets, and the jacket looks great too. how accurate are they going to be ? i mean besides the belt loops

[Sansome1877]

hey mike finaly got the book today. i couldnt wait all this time and now it is here. so congrats. so you colaborated with warehouse on their new duckdiggers line ? i cant wait for the greenebaum bros pants. love those front pockets, and the jacket looks great too. how accurate are they going to be ? i mean besides the belt loops

I saw the new Duck Digger reproductions the other day, I sold those items a few years back and it looks like warehouse is finally making them. I didn't collaborate with

Warehouse on the new line. We are more into exact reproductions with no belt loops or extra pockets (not that there is anything wrong with that). I think providing a line of jeans that are true to history would be kind of cool……….I have a pair of Duck Diggers from years ago, and they are still one of my favorite jeans to wear, the denim has a lot of character. Thanks for getting the book, If you have any questions, feel free to ask.

[fardin]

thanks mike. well i love those greenebaum pants. and i am planing on getting them as soon as they come out. i remember warehouse used to make some repros with and without belt loops. i kinda like the loops cause i like to waer belts, but its far from beeing accurate time wise. i have a pair of their " boss of the road " duck repros, wich have a very low rise. thats strange for a pre 1900s pant.

what about the back pocket stiching wich is also used by duckdiggers. seems like they were used not only by boss of the road but also by the montana waist overalls courtesy of brit eaton.

i love the 1920s lee you have in the book.

and mike hoois lee friscos are very nice too, although i think they must be from the last half of the 20th century cause they dont have any suspender buttons and the front pocket is lower then the earlier 1946 model. though warehouse did an awesome job on their frisco model repro, even the wide cut is very accurate.

great book.

[Sansome1877]

thanks mike. well i love those greenebaum pants. and i am planing on getting them as soon as they come out. i remember warehouse used to make some repros with and without belt loops. i kinda like the loops cause i like to waer belts, but its far from beeing accurate time wise. i have a pair of their " boss of the road " duck repros, wich have a very low rise. thats strange for a pre 1900s pant.

what about the back pocket stiching wich is also used by duckdiggers. seems like they were used not only by boss of the road but also by the montana waist overalls courtesy of brit eaton.

i love the 1920s lee you have in the book.

and mike hoois lee friscos are very nice too, although i think they must be from the last half of the 20th century cause they dont have any suspender buttons and the front pocket is lower then the earlier 1946 model. though warehouse did an awesome job on their frisco model repro, even the wide cut is very accurate.

great book.

Yea... those Greenebaum pants look really nice, I might have to get me a pair of those. Do you know how much they are going to sell for? The 1880's Boss of the Road repros that I have from Warehouse... don't have belt loops, I have a few pants with belt loops but I prefer no belt loops. The back pocket stitching on Warehouse jeans, was used by many companies back in the day, I found a pair of Steinhart pants that used that same flower stitch under the front pockets and the back pockets. The 1880's Steinhart pant that I found, was the only pant from that time period that I have seen with two back pockets. Your probably right about the age on those friscos, those most likely won't make it into the revised addition of Jeans of the old west.

[fardin]

i have no i dea how much those greenebaum pants will cost uit i guess the same as most of the warehouse stuff around 24000 yen. cant wait for them . i love those front pockets. why did you write in your book that you think they were not made in san francisco, since the friosco jeens also have those pockets. where does the calssic front pocket design for jeans like levis uses come from?

[Sansome1877]

i have no i dea how much those greenebaum pants will cost uit i guess the same as most of the warehouse stuff around 24000 yen. cant wait for them . i love those front pockets. why did you write in your book that you think they were not made in san francisco, since the friosco jeens also have those pockets. where does the calssic front pocket design for jeans like levis uses come from?

Since we finished the book almost 8 months ago new information has has been found. We found that more clothing manufacturing was done in San Francisco than we previously thought, we even found that Levi Strauss was listed as a clothing manufacturer back in 1865. We found a company in San Francisco calling them selves The Denim Jeans Company

in 1869, we also found another company making heavy denim overalls in 1859. We really don"t know where Levi got the front pocket shape they used but the pants that are on page 135 use the same front pocket cut that Levi used.

[Sansome1877]

Picture 1. A half pair of 1873-74 2x1 Levi pant with rivets only stamped on the back side, these pants are on the top. The pants on the bottom, are the pants on page 39.

Picture 2. Piece on the left is the inner part of the pant leg, from the pants on page 39. Piece on the right are the pant leg of the Levi 2x1 pant with back stamped rivets.

Picture 3. Back stamped rivet from the Levi 2x1 pant..

Picture 4. Front side of the rivet, on the Levi 2x1 pant.

[Paul T]

whoa, sorry, I haven't been paying attention. Tell me more about the 2x1 pant. Obviously it will be a lighter weight than the main model? Is it the same design?

[Sansome1877]

whoa, sorry, I haven't been paying attention. Tell me more about the 2x1 pant. Obviously it will be a lighter weight than the main model? Is it the same design?

The design is the same, unfortunately the 2x1 Levi piece is missing the patch and cinch strap area. I am looking forward to your interview with Ralph.