Repros and the Japanese Identity

[CrashTestBrummie]

What I want to say is that American style has been imported to pretty much every part of the world since America is, and this is a fact, the cultural center of the world. It is NOT Paris or London or Europe in general.

Highly debatable, and I'm not saying this because I'm English! American POP culture is all pervasive at the moment, in the same way that British pop culture from the 60s was. As for culture on a broader scale? Well...

Denim is very much part of that pop culture, hence its popularity worldwide due to the current influence of American (pop) culture.

But going back to the Japanese take on denim, it's clear that the Japanese DO have a tendency to take things and run with them, Paul T's earlier examples of (Scottish) whisky and golf being two prime examples.

And I think it's somewhat naive to attempt to debunk the 'myth' that any other culture, Japanese included, is essentially different. A mere trip across continental Europe would be enough to show that cultural differences lead to people and places developing their own unique character. It's only natural (for us) that places furthest from the Anglosphere seem so 'alien' to us, as any differences are amplified by distance.

Of course, this works in both directions...50s Americana might seem as exotic to the Japanese as chanbara films do to us.

[rnrswitch]

What I'm saying is that there is not a specific trait in the Japanese personality that makes them like repros nor is there any deeper significance in them liking vintage American style.

You're certainly free to discuss why Japanese like certain things, but if it's going to be done by singling them out from every other ethnicity that also like this thing, it's going to tick me off a little.

Unfortunately, nobody is talking about the Japanese personality other than you. This thread is examining the Japanese culture, not their personalities.

Also, I don't think the Japanese romanticization of the 50s is due to seeing WWII soldiers walking around, but more that is the beginning of the marketing blast of American companies into Japan.

Also, the Japanese are not just admiring vintage clothing in this subculture, but they are blowing a lot of it out of proportion. Like that company that makes shirts with a black face character eating watermelon. I don't think they completely get, nor do most americans, the facade of the 50s, where everything was apple pie and white people with big smiles.

[ethanedwards]

Watermelon, and apple pie, I am hungry...

[raWorkshop]

Let's not forget that "the 50's" repro clothing aims to emulate didn't even exist in America. The 50's was a fucking toxic decade of continued imperial policy, shitty race relations and disgustingly untempered suburban sprawl/expansion.

This debate also has a lot to do with the windows of perception we're using. It's one cult of "aficionados" absorbing the products of another cult half way around the world. If you think the average Japanese person gives a crap about 160 dollar jeans, you should probably reconsider. The fact that a lot of it is coming through the internet, where you can support any hypothesis you can dream of, doesn't help.

It's just an aesthetic that has a cool pallet of design, existentializing it is something of a waste of time. Trying to pin repro clothing down in some culturally deterministic way doesn't really work beyond the fact that there's a somewhat higher appreciation for artisanal stuff in Japan. Repro clothing is the product of a small ass chunk of a huge ass country and "culture" (which has no real definition by the way, look up Don Mitchell for more on that), don't force meaning where there is none.

[ringring]

Lmaozedong, thank you for kicking off this fascinating discussion. I'll be very interested to see what conclusions you draw from the correlations between Japanese identity and their development of the 'repro' denim subculture. The contributions to this discourse have been superb. Brilliant.

Like HorriblyJollyJinx & EthanEdwards (shame you edited your erudite post), I'd encourage a wider view of 'repro' denim fashion and place in context with what was happening elsewhere in the world at that time. Taking into account also practical factors such as geographical location and manufacturing capability that allowed the seedling interest in jeans to bloom.

A couple of questions that could be addressed is where and when did the 'repro' jeans niche start in Japan?

Edwin, or rather KK Tsunemi had been importing second-hand jeans since late 50's, and started making Edwin jeans in the 60s. However, the 'repro' scene as Superfutarians know it, started much later.

Let's take ourselves back 30 years and the start of a handful of people reproducing selvedge jeans, in and around Osaka. Incidentally, Studio D'Artisan, acknowledged as one of the founding groups of this type fashion celebrates it's 30th Anniversary this year. Happy birthday Pigboys

So we're at the start of the 80's. Capital E Red Tabs are long gone, but it's still a few years before Levi's decide to cast aside the pearl that is their redline selvedge. Looking across the other side of the world, we'd see as if by coincidence the emergence of fashion trends based on American, typically 50's retro.

The Rockabilly fashion that had been bubbling as a European subculture was about to hit mainstream. By the mid-80's, stimulated by Bartle Bogle Hegarty's iconic 501 ads, the streets of London would be filled with the sounds of Sam Cooke and the sweet smell of pomade smudged on the windows of trains and cafes'. Imported, redline 501's were mainstream trend (for women too). Fashion-led 50's revival dominated the pop charts, with the 501 ads, whose jeans were now, 'selvedge-free', being the engine that propelled the music.

In mirrors all over Europe, quiffs were being slicked back and jeans cuffed up. In France, Chevignon, which coincidentally, was founded in the same year as Studio D'Artisan, was making it's version of 'repro' flight jackets to huge success. Contemporary movie stars, such as Matt Dillon and Mickey Rourke sported the 501, white T, leather jacket template. Paul T documents this wonderfully in his Denim book.

And if European's were smearing their locks with Dax and Sweet Georgia Brown, in beautiful allegiance, their Japanese counterparts would be preening their own DA's with the mighty Fibre Grease.

So, that's the 80s fashion backdrop. The difference is from say the British, Dutch, Swedish or French 'repro' culture is that the Japanese have the manufacturing ability to actually (re)produce these garments. Crucially, they had access to the denim, produced locally in the Okayama prefecture with it's long history of indigo knowledge. They are brilliant at it.

They also didn't have Bros (rhymes, famously, with dross) - the British 'band' that single-handled killed off any cool that was associated with vintage 501s

'Repro' is still very much a subculture in Japan. A small segment of their jeans market. Even the brands associated with 'repro-jeans' aren't constrained to reproducing purely historical costume. It's Americana fashion.

Best of luck with your paper.

[lmaozedong]

Thanks for the info ringring! Do you have anywhere I could actually find the historical information so I can cite in in my paper? Thank you!

[lmaozedong]

raWorkshop--while I realize that repro jeans are only a very small part in the much larger context of Japanese fashion, I believe it to be significant in the following ways:

1) its part of the larger tendency to imitate American fashions

2) it speaks to certain elements of the Japanese identity/culture, specifically the attention to detail and the value of artisanship in Japan

3) it is an imitation of a certain style that existed in the immediate post-war period--which, while not necessarily something to be read into, is certainly an interesting coincidence if nothing else

I'm not saying that EVERYONE in Japan wears these jeans, but I think that it is reasonable to use the example of repro jeans to illustrate a few principles, such as how the subtle differences in fashion can illustrate certain differences in identity, basicall the following principle:

a) that the construction of an individual identity in fashion or clothing is possible only by using the available different garments, and that the different garmens available at any one time form a structure, and

that the structures of difference are generated only bey the actions of individuals who are constructin identities for themselves.

and also that individual identity is formed through "socialistic adaption to society and departure from its demands"

In this case, I'm increasing the scale to describe a larger culture, and that cultural identity is based on the push and pull between the adaptations and imitations of the more dominant culture (i.e. American fashion) and differentiation by the Japanese that makes thier fashion uniquely Japanese. In the case of repro jeans, I think this principle is pretty clearly illustrated.

Any input on these thoughts would be greatly appreciated!

[raWorkshop]

Hmmm seems pretty solid, I honestly don't know enough about Japan to offer a critical reply though. Good thread.

[Paul T]

Culture these days is homogenised, with kids around the world picking up on parallel influences; what I find intriguing about Japanese culture is their affinity for the tribalism and purism that is part of youth culture. There is a kind of rigour and calvinism about it. This rigour comes and goes in Brit culture - think of mods or rockabillys - and is a big part of the youth scene in Japan. It doesn't apply so much in the US, because the US is simply not as densely-populated.

It's worth pointing out Japanese youth weren't identifying with American culture in general, so much as identifying with those rebelling against American culture. THey picked up on the tools, and the signifiers of that rebellion. But then, as was described in one of the first books on youth culture, what was a revolt became merely a style.

http://www.faber.co.uk/work/revolt-into-style/9780571246588/

(Old, irrelevant story: many years ago my band was on a trendy label called 4AD; a Japanese company used to license some of their albums, and did ours. The packaging was absolutely beautiful, essentially the same as the Brit version, but better printed and the vinyl pressing was excellent. THey also went to the trouble of transcribing all the lyrics. In an Anglo culture, they would have called me and asked what the lyrics were, but instead someone sat down and transcribed the songs, line by line. They got about two words out of five wrong and came up with something infintely better than the original, surreal and mysterious.)

[TallyHo]

Imaozedong - i think of "imitate" as changing oneself to fit an image (japanese trying to be more "american" by wearing blue jeans), and "innovate" as modifying the design (adding a sixth pocket, etc...). i don't think either is the case here, but this may just be semantics. i think japanese "repro" manufacturers feel that the design and quality of jeans reached its peak in mid century america. while many americans probably agree, the reasons likely differ: american ideals favor "toughness" and "durability" and so forth, where (as previously mentioned) the japanese identify with the "wabi-sabi" aesthetic. as such, i think it's more appropriate to say the japanese "appropriated" (pun intended) repro denim and made it their own - with appreciation for the fading/aging characteristics over the durability of the product. this is why most of the "innovations" have served to heighten fading/aging properties rather than heighten durability (iron heart being a major exception, i suppose...although maybe they're just taking the appropriation one step further? ha).

as ringring pointed out, it's no coincidence that the decline of quality denim in america directly preceded its rise in japan - basically, "if american companies are going to stop producing the denim we want, we'll make it ourselves." there have been discussions on here in the past about japanese companies purchasing shuttle looms from US factories. the underlying intentions are quite clear.

HJJ - i'm surprised by how upset you seem. granted, some of the theories thrown out in this thread might be off base, but it's all speculation and discussion. frankly, there's no way you can be certain of the contrary. while it's very reductionist to say "the japanese like repro jeans because of ww2," you can read any book about modern japanese history and it will go into depth about the enormous influence the american occupation had on japanese culture after the war. if you believe what you read, it's as though japan came out of the dark ages and emerged a world power.

you are also being very dismissive of the sheer number of japanese denim reproduction manufacturers. your comment about SDA's pig patch is focusing on the details at the expense of the big picture: that the design is blatant mock up of the levi's patch replacing the mules. it's hard to see the forest from the trees... and just for the sake of argument (because it's fun), here's a map of worldwide mule distribution in 2003:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:2003ass.PNG

it doesn't look like they have mules in japan. perhaps pigs are the mule equivalent in japan, hence the in-joke on SDAs patch? i really don't know or care, but it's food for the thought. when you have a 4x3" piece of leather that you can put ANYTHING on, why are COUNTLESS companies in japan putting a pair of jeans there being pulled apart by two animals or objects (pigs, trains, wagons, samurai, motorcycles, alligators, ad nauseum...)? if there was a worldwide map for for reproduction denim, why would ALL BUT TWO (LVC and Stronghold in the US) dots be in japan? these are questions worth considering... even at a national level.

also, why are you so certain the japanese "imported american fashion" and that jeans weren't introduced to japan by americans during the occupation? (i have no evidence to support my claim, but do you have any to support yours? i'd love to know how the first pair of jeans reached japanese shores)

ringring - great post! a pleasure to read.

Paul T - your point about the japanese "identifying with those rebelling against american culture" could potentially be very profound in this discussion. would it be outrageous to suggest a correlation between japanese affinity for denim and some underlying resentment of conservative american culture (the same that committed some of the most heinous acts in history against their nation and citizens)? i always felt something was missing from the history books between WW2 and the subsequent close-knit relationship between japan and the US. could you expand on this thought or point me towards some more specific reading on that topic?

also, i love how you just casually mention you were in a band on 4AD many years ago... DETAILS PLEASE!! and how about a story or two?

[lmaozedong]

Imaozedong - i think of "imitate" as changing oneself to fit an image (japanese trying to be more "american" by wearing blue jeans), and "innovate" as modifying the design (adding a sixth pocket, etc...). i don't think either is the case here, but this may just be semantics

...

i'd love to know how the first pair of jeans reached japanese shores)

TallyHo--this is actually something I've been wrestling over in the past couple of days. I'm not really sure what the goal of Japanese appropriation of American fashions are--are they trying to be American in a way by adapting American fashions, or are they creating something uniquely Japanese in appropriating and creating differentiation in their product, or is it a combination of these two, or something entirely different? I'm not really sure if it's adaptation, appropriation, or innovation--I would tend to say that the answer lies somewhere in between.

This thread is a goldmine, btw. Thanks to everyone for helping me direct my research. However, I'm having a hard time finding reputable sources talking about the history of denim in Japan--as in, I know that Japanese companies import looms and Edwin jeans has been selling/importing jeans for a really long time, but I hardly can use sufu as a source--where can I find a reputable source for these things? So far, the lack of hard information has been something I've had a lot of trouble with.

[zhaolasi]

Let's not forget that "the 50's" repro clothing aims to emulate didn't even exist in America. The 50's was a fucking toxic decade of continued imperial policy, shitty race relations and disgustingly untempered suburban sprawl/expansion.

This debate also has a lot to do with the windows of perception we're using. It's one cult of "aficionados" absorbing the products of another cult half way around the world. If you think the average Japanese person gives a crap about 160 dollar jeans, you should probably reconsider. The fact that a lot of it is coming through the internet, where you can support any hypothesis you can dream of, doesn't help.

It's just an aesthetic that has a cool pallet of design, existentializing it is something of a waste of time. Trying to pin repro clothing down in some culturally deterministic way doesn't really work beyond the fact that there's a somewhat higher appreciation for artisanal stuff in Japan. Repro clothing is the product of a small ass chunk of a huge ass country and "culture" (which has no real definition by the way, look up Don Mitchell for more on that), don't force meaning where there is none.

Right on, right on.

[horriblyjollyjinx]

you are also being very dismissive of the sheer number of japanese denim reproduction manufacturers. your comment about SDA's pig patch is focusing on the details at the expense of the big picture: that the design is blatant mock up of the levi's patch replacing the mules. it's hard to see the forest from the trees... and just for the sake of argument (because it's fun), here's a map of worldwide mule distribution in 2003:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:2003ass.PNG

it doesn't look like they have mules in japan. perhaps pigs are the mule equivalent in japan, hence the in-joke on SDAs patch? i really don't know or care, but it's food for the thought. when you have a 4x3" piece of leather that you can put ANYTHING on, why are COUNTLESS companies in japan putting a pair of jeans there being pulled apart by two animals or objects (pigs, trains, wagons, samurai, motorcycles, alligators, ad nauseum...)? if there was a worldwide map for for reproduction denim, why would ALL BUT TWO (LVC and Stronghold in the US) dots be in japan? these are questions worth considering... even at a national level.

I'm not being dismissive of the fact that there are a lot of Japanese denim brands, nor am I failing to see any trees.

It is in fact so that you have failed at comprehending the discussion so far.

Lmao was asking what the meaning of the details on patches that are different from Levi's mean, ie what significance do the pigs have. Under that premise of looking at these select repro brands, it wouldn't make sense for anyone to bring up what you just did--"oh, I found something here, the patches all imitate Levi's!".

And not all but two repro brands are Japanese, there's Ace(germany), Evil denim etc etc, in fact almost all highend brands take details from Levi's or other brands in history.

In the late 90s in Sweden, a chain-owned brand made Levi's ltd ed spin-offs.

So what you have unique to Japan is not any type of fascination with American 20th century history, that's present pretty much everywhere, but the fact that they are manufacturing at a larger scale and with higher quality.

As far as I see, the retro trend is the same in Japan as Sweden, Germany, UK, NA etc.

Why the Japanese would be singled out I don't know. Perhaps because when an Asian person wears typical American clothing it is more obvious that he is a part of a subculture and that the style isnt native to his country.

I live in Tokyo and I've met pretty much everyone here with a denim blog, I've been to the Ligthning festival, I've met tons of other people who wear only vintage.

When I asked some of them why they chose this particular style the answer was like with any other, not entirely clear and though out, mostly including words like 'cool' and 'interesting', or just saying 'it's the best style!'.

Just as people in the US can choose how to dress by their own conscious choice, so can Japanese, believe it or not.

Just the notion of a person sitting at home in America and saying that the reason some of the people I know dress the way they do is because of something they can't control, like the fact that Japan was a part in ww2 and that there were American soldiers in Japan, is belittling them. It's like an understanding pat on the head, like if they were kids and didn't have the same ability to make choices as you do.

Imperialism has come up a few times in this thread, and that is once again a way of making Japanese inferior to Americans, as if they must've been forced to wear repros.

Why it couldn't be that some Japanese just happen to like 50s style like some Swedish people do, I'd like to know.

In all of Europe during the 50s-60s, Levi's jeans were highly valuable. I think I remember reading that they were even smuggled to Sweden through Russia and marked up significantly before there was an distributor there.

Personally, I think Europeans and Japanese people like old Levi's styles for pretty much the exact same reasons.

The OP however is singling out the Japanese and claiming there to be a deeper cause. I don't think so.

I certainly have never said or meant that there are not variations and cultural differences. The difference I see with the Japanese is that they go to greater lengths to make what it is they re interested in. So they make the best jeans, but they also have the best restaurants in the world(tokyo is the city with the most Michelin stars), and they make the 'best' hiphip/streetwear clothing etc.

So if you're looking for something uniqely Japanese you should look for the reason for their dedication, not the reason why they like vintage style, because that is everywhere.

also, why are you so certain the japanese "imported american fashion" and that jeans weren't introduced to japan by americans during the occupation? (i have no evidence to support my claim, but do you have any to support yours? i'd love to know how the first pair of jeans reached japanese shores)

I never said anything about how the first jeans came to Japan, once again you aren't comprehending what I'm writing. It is also beyond the scope of this discussion how the first pair of jeans came to Japan, unless someone would argue that the repro trend started from this very pair.

And by the way, asking me for evidence for the type of statement you say I made is just mind boggling, in a serious discussion the person making a positive claim(the first jeans came to Japan with the US army, I can lift 500kg etc etc) would be the one with the burden of proof.

When I say the Japanese imported American style, I mean that they knowingly chose to dress in the same way as Americans. Just like a lot of people across the world.

[raWorkshop]

TallyHo--this is actually something I've been wrestling over in the past couple of days. I'm not really sure what the goal of Japanese appropriation of American fashions are--are they trying to be American in a way by adapting American fashions, or are they creating something uniquely Japanese in appropriating and creating differentiation in their product, or is it a combination of these two, or something entirely different? I'm not really sure if it's adaptation, appropriation, or innovation--I would tend to say that the answer lies somewhere in between.

This thread is a goldmine, btw. Thanks to everyone for helping me direct my research. However, I'm having a hard time finding reputable sources talking about the history of denim in Japan--as in, I know that Japanese companies import looms and Edwin jeans has been selling/importing jeans for a really long time, but I hardly can use sufu as a source--where can I find a reputable source for these things? So far, the lack of hard information has been something I've had a lot of trouble with.

Well, on some level, they're both consumer based societies, both the US and Japanese need pants, and repro denim is badass so in a lot of cases I'm sure it's just that simple. I don't know that you'll find any research, but if you email the companies (especially if you try and use some Japanese) I'm sure they'd be thrilled to give you their account.

Edit: Can anybody point me towards a good article about wabi-sabi?

[TallyHo]

a lot of stuff

1. i missed the part where mao asked about the symbolism of patches. i thought you raised that as some point of argument. if he did bring that up, i agree it's a bit silly.

2. never heard of Ace, where can i learn more? having handled Evil jeans in person, and reading a thread about them a while back, my impression is that this was a one-off, one-lot, bootleg-ish, passion project that was more about style than substance. i don't mean for that to sound as harsh as it does, but the bottom line is i don't think it can really be considered a "repro company" as much as a fluke. all denim companies are taking some cues from levi's (they patented the damn things, after all) but that doesn't make them "repro" companies.

3. if a guy on the street asks me why i wear a certain type of jeans, i might say because they are "cool" or "interesting" as you mentioned. but if someone pressed me for more, i might say something about the quality and characteristics, maybe the cut, etc... if they pressed me more, i might talk about how i'm only interested in timeless style and shifting trends are of little interest to me (please note that timeless and retro or vintage are not the same thing at all). if i dug deep into myself, i might find that i have a deep aversion to marketing and/or being marketed to. if i went to a shrink, maybe they could tell me something i could never come up with myself... these are the ideas that we are discussing in this thread. obviously there are exceptions to every rule, and no offense is meant to you or your friends with denim blogs, but sociology (and all academic fields really) deal in broad strokes. i bet if you pressed those same friends, you could get a more in depth answer as well.

4. along the same lines... this is not a discussion about free will. i'm not saying any japanese people were predestined to wear jeans because of the allied occupation. but we can all agree that jeans are american, and a segment of the japanese population (MUCH larger segment than in other countries, hence the discussion) is obsessed with them. if they're cool, why? because they reflect an image of america that is cool > well why is that image cool? ...and so on, until you get to the root of it.

5. many europeans make a more aggressive and condescending attempt to "belittle" americans by saying we appropriated all sorts of cultural customs, fashions, foods, philosophies, etc from europe. i don't feel belittled. i agree. we are a young nation and we took our cues from other countries; sometimes based on simple utility, sometimes based on preference. japan has a longer history than the US, but everyone agrees that the war had such a catastrophic effect on japan, that the rebuilding was perhaps more like forming a new nation. look at what's going on in iraq right now - we set up the new government in our image and stick around to make sure everything proceeds to our approval. this has a profound effect on national identity. (and for the record, no i am not a fan of US imperialism. let's spare everyone that splinter discussion).

6. i would only find it interesting to know where the first pair (or batch of pairs) found their way to japan. i agree that it's no proof of any claims in this thread.

7. my request for "evidence" wasn't meant as a challenge. i was just hoping you might know more about the rise of denim's popularity in japan (or that elusive "first pair"). however, you did make the positive claim that the japanese "imported american fashion" first, so... and i know what you meant by that, but it still refutes the idea that jeans may have been placed in japan by the US rather than taken from the US by japan (and again, i'm not talking about your friends...more like your friends' grandparents and their contemporaries).

now for the big HOWEVER: it is entirely possible that the popularity of denim reveals no discernible insight to the japanese character or psyche, but you've got to consider all the ideas being raised here before you come to that conclusion.

raWorkshop - a quick google search yielded this: http://nobleharbor.com/tea/chado/WhatIsWabi-Sabi.htm i'll try to dig out some of my old books and notes and see if i can track down something better. could take a while though...

[lmaozedong]

Theres a whole lot of stuff I could reply to specifically, and I don't remember about asking about the symbolism about specific patches and reading into that.. but my main point is, if I say that the reason why I can wear jeans today is because some guy named Levi Strauss decided it'd be a good idea to make pants out of denim, is that belittling my ability to make my own choices in any way? No--and similarly, just because the origin of the popularity of vintage jeans in Japan and the subsequent movement toward repro jeans is a result of the presence of American soldiers in Japan doesn't belittle the Japanese specifically in any way--if anything, it belittles us all because we all make our fashion decisions within the context of what is available to us.

[Christmas In A Submarine.]

HHJ: I can see what you're saying in some ways. The tendency of college students to write terrible, over generalized, facile papers about intricate subjects is omnipresent and I sympathize with attempting to hedge against and prevent any such arguments being made. That being said, I think that the root of the question here has the potential to be opened up into a far more nuanced discussion, as you yourself has shown.

Maybe it's just because I come from a social science background, but I would reject the idea that a "topic" is all encompassing. In fact where I went to school the quickest way to fail was to stay on topic in the interest of brevity or at the expense of interest.

As you say: the key to expanding the initial question may lie in a Japanese tendency to do whatever it is exceptionally well, be it denim, automobiles, etc etc. That, it seems to me, is in itself is an interesting discussion, and there is no shame in altering the "topic" of the paper to reflect the amended investigation. It is perfectly allowable, I think, to revise your introductory line of questioning to lead your reader to agree with you that a: it is more or less accurate, though not unproblematic, to assert that Japanese culture places a certain value on the "doing well" of things, though the definition of "well" is not always a normative one. And, that b: a certain portion of the Japanese population has an interest in denim which in direct or tangential ways reproduces aspects of historically American style.

Using these two claims as a basis for investigation, I see see nothing too sweeping or insultingly normative or debasing about the resultant claims. Any assessment which is based primarily on observation and carefully weighted, anti-judgemental conclusions is more likely than not to please and not offend even its subjects.

Granted, you may have to stay within a realm of discussion which allows you to tie your conclusions back to the topic of the class... but you shouldn't have been allowed into college if you can't make up some bullshit to bridge that gap.

*a caveat* keep in mind that my assertions about japanese culture within this post were entirely without any basis other than that they were proposed within this topic. I used them only to outline one style of organizing an argument, and not to outline my own.

[Slub]

raWorkshop - there was an interesting programme on BBC4 recently about Wabi Sabi - http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00j8bkc

I have a friend at the Beeb, i'll see if a transcript is available. Will let you know...

[ringring]

Thanks for the info ringring! Do you have anywhere I could actually find the historical information so I can cite in in my paper? Thank you!

You're welcome. You should find references to most dates via Google, but here's a few to be getting on with.....

1957 KK Tsuemi imports used jeans to Japan, repairing and laundering them before selling on. Realising the gap in the Japanese market for unused, high quality jeans without the shrinking kerfuffle, they decided to make their own.

1961 - KK Tsuemi produce their own line, called Edwin, named by shuffling the letters of the word Denim and flipping the M. They launch the one-wash finish to pre-shrink the jeans and about 19 years later are to pioneer stone washing.

1971 - Levi's changes the Red Tab, removing the 'Capital E'. After observing the strong demand for vintage Levi's worldwide (much fuelled by the Bartle Bogle Hegarty campaigns), the 'Capital E' would make a return in 1992.

1976 - Popeye Magazine published in Japan. Introducing American menswear style to a generation of young Japanese and planting the seeds of desire that would lead to some of it's readers to ask 'how can we replicate that American heritage style in Japan?'

1979 - Chevignon formed in France by Guy Azoulay. Evolved from importing second hand America clothing, into making his own take on US Flight jackets. Think French Buzz Rickson, more fashion-retro, less strictly 'repro'.

1979 - Studio D'Artisan founded in Osaka. Ace denim, piggy humour.

1983 - The 501's redline selvedge goes. Replaced by Cone Mill's XXX denim. Sales of the 501 would rise anyway, which gives you an indication of the perceived value of the selvedge at the time.

1985 - Bartle Bogle Hegarty's 'Laudrette' ad makes teenagers giggle, housewives giddy and 501 sales to shoot up by allegedly 800%. Ray Bans, Boxer shorts and Marvin Gaye also get a sales boost. It transformed the image of Levi's as 'the jeans your dad wore' into something more sexy and subversive. The previous BBH ad, known as 'The Bath' introduced a new generation to shrink-to-fit.

http://www.aber.ac.uk/media/Modules/MC30820/launderette.html

1987 - Bros release first single. BBH's work in putting the cool into 501's is undone. Death knell for vintage 501s Bros hang on till 1992. Matt Goss get's cool points back in Hellboy 2. Incidentally APC is also founded this year, Jean Touitou's nostalgia for dry denim prompting him to make his own take on the 501.

1988 - Denime and Evis are born. Evis morphs to Evisu in 1991.

2008 - Yoichi wins Whiskey Magazine's best single malt award and Suntory Hibiki claims first prize for their blended whiskey, beating off 200+ all comers in a blind taste-off.

It may be worthwhile to think about the age of people that led the Japanese 'repro' revival. Most of the 'founding fathers' of Osaka 'repro' denim fashion were born in tail end of the 50's-early 60's. They are Obama's age. Born just before much of their target market, Generation X.

Which meant that they all but missed the American Occupation of Japan. They would be cushioned by a generation from the bitter taste of post-war austerity. My guess is that the fascination with American retro was just tendency to embrace something foreign as cool and different from Mum & Dad - just as in Europe.

By the time they were in their 20s, Japan had a regained confidence economically and in design. Issey Miyake, Yohji Yamamoto & Rei Kawakubo (born in 38, 42 & 43 respectively) were spearheading a new, inventive fashion, and the population had money in their pockets from the inflated 'Bubble Economy'. A time of great optimism.

Why are Japanese 'repro jeans' so good? Taking a evolutionary look, it's a tiny niche market. In order to survive they had to improve and/or diversify. Improving mean getting ever more nerderly involved in the minutiae of the 501 vernacular - specialised fabrics (like Sugarcane's cane-mix), natural dyes, some jeans even using 25+ different sewing yarns in order to carve a USP. Other's diversified in more 'fashion' product (like Fullcount, John Bull etc).

Christmas in A Submarine - well played

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[thatslapz]

that wud be great thanks!

Sorry to go a bit off topic, but as the title is asking about identity, here is an article about "identity not" which I mentioned earlier.

It is called "Appearance Management as Border Construction: Least Favorite Clothing, Group Distancing, and Identity Not!" and it can be found in the Sociological Inquiry journal, Volume 63, Issue 3, pages 323-335.

[takashi]

I cannot say much about Japanese identity (no-one talks about American identity in such terms whenever some people in US appropriate something from somewhere else, which is all the time and throughout their whole history).

However, the irony of "the jeans that made America" being the brainchild of a European Jew was not lost on the early makers of repro jeans (who after all were only trying to fill the gap created when American makers abandoned their own traditional methods). Studio D'artisan for example, chose the pig for their mascot because they were trying to create something similar but at the same time quite different to the jeans of Mr Levi-Strauss. Because they knew that Jewish peoples don't eat pigs (indeed it says in the Torah that one should not touch the carcass of a swine), they made the pig as their symbol. It's a kind of postmodern joke I should hasten to add, and nothing against Jews. Mr Nakai from Osaka shop can tell you the whole story if you are interested; he is usually there thursdays through saturdays.

[rnrswitch]

People do talk about American identity in many aspects in regards to the media we watch, clothes we wear, white youth involved in hip hop culture. I think one of the reasons it may not be discussed in regards to taking portions of other cultures (some European and even some from Asia), is that America is made up of immigrants so in many cases it can be linked directly back through immigration and not really all that mysterious. It is amazing that the Japanese (read vintage american repro subculture in Japan) can take something uniquely american as jeans and have such a passion about it that they even reproduce the imperfections in the original. Look at how mizanations atelier is producings puckering and visible coin pocket selvage even though those were originally considered flaws in the manufacturing process.

[ringring]

However, the irony of "the jeans that made America" being the brainchild of a European Jew was not lost on the early makers of repro jeans (who after all were only trying to fill the gap created when American makers abandoned their own traditional methods). Studio D'artisan for example, chose the pig for their mascot because they were trying to create something similar but at the same time quite different to the jeans of Mr Levi-Strauss..

D'Artisan certainly went 'the whole hog*' when reproducing Levi's jeans.

*with apologies to Jonathan Miller for the misappropriation of his famous quip

Illuminating post as usual Takashi. Many thanks.

.

[frideswide]

I cannot say much about Japanese identity (no-one talks about American identity in such terms whenever some people in US appropriate something from somewhere else, which is all the time and throughout their whole history).

.

Lol --- that’s true: when Starbucks first started slavishly copying Milan-style espresso and cappucino and ‘introducing’ it to the American market (and indeed to the world), it didn’t prompt any deep analysis about the derivative and immitative nature of American culture. But yet when the Japanese do it --- “oh those clever monkeys -- must be something about their identity.”

Interesting stuff about Studio D' btw.

[rnrswitch]

I don't think it is quite comparable the importation of Milan style coffee shops (Starbucks) and a Japanese subculture remaking denim jeans. Starbucks is a cheap knock-off of Italian coffee shops. A mass marketed pusher of coffee... uniquely similar to american style business tactics. And also, there are many marketing studies which do analyze these things, but you wouldn't read about them here because this is a denim board, not a coffee board.

Is it not interesting that a subculture in Japan would embrace a style and culture from across the planet that at one time dropped an A bomb on a couple Japanese cities? Would it also not be interesting if 50 years down line an American subculture would embrace Al-Quada-ish clothing and culture? Wouldn't it be interesting or at least prompt the question, "Why?"

[raWorkshop]

Well that's unfair because it fails on all levels to separate peoples identities from their given nation-state/nationality (which is probably the only trait more American than jeans!).

[rnrswitch]

I don't think I need to separate people's identities from their nation-state/national origin because I did not say "all Japanese" or "all americans", I used the terms subculture to differentiate the subculture's identity from its national culture.

[tweeds]

Well that's unfair because it fails on all levels to separate peoples identities from their given nation-state/nationality (which is probably the only trait more American than jeans!).

^ that made me go "heh"

would just like to weigh in on the side of being careful about reductive statements and conclusions when it comes to a topic like fashion (personal identity set within a larger social identity?) and its links to a larger cultural whole. while some of the generalisations are inevitable, there is also a pressing need to be wary of painting any community with a single brush since each country has, amongst many more possible strata, its time-, region-, ethnicity-, ideologically-bound sub-groups (if you must), each overlapping with another and coalescing their influences in the concrete form of an individual person. a person such as HJJ meets daily in tokyo...

also very interested to read the final output from this paper.

...and now back to my own essay on (motherfucking) causation in the tort of negligence.

[lmaozedong]

I think I'm going to focus my paper on the differentiations (I know a lot of Japanese denim producers focus on copying old jeans as closely as they possibly can, but I find the differentiations they make more interesting and illustrative, although the attention to details in making exact copies that the Japanese have is certainly interesting as well)

Right now, I'm writing about how the Japanese focus on using natural instead of synthetic dyes (specifically, I'm talking about the natural dying techniques that a company like Sugar Cane employs) and the specific types of denim that these companies use in order create the most natural looking fades. I'm connecting this idea to the concept of wabi-sabi aesthetics--I think the connection here is pretty clear. I also plan on talking about how companies like warehouse use non-stainless steel buttons to further emphasize the natural process of aging (thanks miz!).

I'm not the biggest expert on repro details, so I was wondering what other differentiations Japanese designers make from the original (or interesting ways in which they try to imitate the exact details of the original) in making repros! I know that you denim heads have a lot of knowledge in this area.. but again, if possible, please give me sources on this information as well. I can't cite sufu as as a source

[Busted Seam]

perhaps you should look at the Skull and Samurai threads for some answers? Or iven Mizanation's wonderful jeans-making thread. This will give you some ideas of the exacting approach to manufacture, fabric etc.

ONe thing worth pointing out is that Japan's denim and fabric mills represent a tradition that goes back a long time, with nearly a century of automatic looms. No Japanese mills ever bought American looms; they already had hundreds of Toyoda looms installed. Their own mills are as integral to Japanese culture as are the edoi ai dyeing techniques mentioned by ringring.

As a minor detail, you might want to point out that it was the Japanese branch of Levi's which produced the company's first revived jeans, a model of the 502, in 1987 according to Paul T's Denim book. THe were also co-founders, with Levi's Europe, in producing the revived LVC range, therefore custodians of a part of American culture, as well as revivalists