Levi's takes on Japanese Denim Resellers and Manufacturers

[sidneylo]

Sidney I'm surprised with you being creative. Someday someone will be ripping off your images and you will have a totally different felling about all this. Again why get pissed at the company for enforcing whats theres (or seems to be) get pissed at the folks not complying.

Airfrog, I may have read your post wrong, but I'm not pissed at the companies... I'm pissed at everyone here for constantly blabbing about "hey, so and so is still selling this and such!" when it's been made abundantly clear after 37 pages in this thread of what's allowed and what's not allowed.

[VeeArSix]

anyone heard from Gordon at BIG??? seems like they're still selling everything with tags & arctuates intact... and contrary to what kiya is saying he was forced to do, BIG has posted a NEW shipment of Samurai on their website (arrived yesterday).

What's going on here? Are they just ignoring Levis or were they (for some reason) not involved in the case?

I went over there this weekend to ask them about it, one of the employees (neither owner was there) told me he didn't know anything about it but "everyone is asking about it". the store seemed exactly the same, nothing was removed from the shelves.

[horriblyjollyjinx]

perhaps superfuture isn't the center of the world and perhaps Levi's don't use it as their main source for information? Maybe the status of BIG's online shop is totally unrelated to any post on any messageboard?

[cheapmuthafukr]

but its still bad form to post in a public place where to obtain an illegal product.

[swisloc]

i seriously doubt their site is down SOULY because of my post. we don't even know it's down because of recent events.

BUT, if by some far off chance it is because of my post alone, i'll give you my address in brooklyn and you can all come and give me a beat down.

at any rate, i made a stupid post, i was ligitimately interested in the status of the store, and it slipped my mind that i probably shouldn't ask it in open forum. sorry.

(notice that there are zero specifics in the above text).

[sidneylo]

perhaps superfuture isn't the center of the world and perhaps Levi's don't use it as their main source for information? Maybe the status of BIG's online shop is totally unrelated to any post on any messageboard?

Yes, we, the online community (sufu or wherever) are completely unrelated to the importation of said denim brands into U.S. retail.

i seriously doubt their site is down SOLEY because of my post. we don't even know it's down because of recent events.

Don't sweat it swisloc... it's just the cumulative effect of this being posted over and over again in this masssssive 37 page thread that would indicate that it'd be best not to post stuff like that... it gets a bit frustrating.

No one's going to kick your ass... wait? Did BiG and SE just completely close down??!? Ok, maybe you will get a beat down...

[cheapmuthafukr]

Yes, we, the online community (sufu or wherever) are completely unrelated to the importation of said denim brands into U.S. retail.

and we in no way influence brands. if we did dont you think that skull would have made the long lengths, and samurai would have gone along with the contest idea that beatle was floating around for a while?

[stuntastic]

perhaps superfuture isn't the center of the world and perhaps Levi's don't use it as their main source for information?

Not as a main source, but definately IS one of many sources...

[airfrogusmc]

Airfrog, I may have read your post wrong, but I'm not pissed at the companies... I'm pissed at everyone here for constantly blabbing about "hey, so and so is still selling this and such!" when it's been made abundantly clear after 37 pages in this thread of what's allowed and what's not allowed.

My point is if a large corporation can't protect things like trademarks then how are we little guys going to be able to protect a trademark or a copyright in a society that makes villians out of everyone that won't give them what they want when they want it no matter what law it breaks or who it hurts. The bottom line is these companies knew the potential risk at making clothing that didn't respect a trademark and now everyones pissed because the company that owned the trademark is now enforcing it. I truly feel bad for the people that its hurting like the importers of these products but the trademark should have been respected.

[swisloc]

swis— could you delete that post anyway (you too Vee). I still have strange reaction to reading it.

done. and glad to do it. again, sorry, this was an isolated incident and not my intention.

[sidneylo]

My point is if a large corporation can't protect things like trademarks then how are we little guys going to be able to protect a trademark or a copyright in a society that makes villians out of everyone that won't give them what they want when they want it no matter what law it breaks or who it hurts. The bottom line is these companies knew the potential risk at making clothing that didn't respect a trademark and now everyones pissed because the company that owned the trademark is now enforcing it. I truly feel bad for the people that its hurting like the importers of these products but the trademark should have been respected.

Airfrog, you know I completely agree with you. As a photographer, I wouldn't have any other stance.

I think we were just talking about two different things. I was not, to my knowledge, referencing Levi's right to exercise their copyright/trademark at all.

[sneakeraddict]

to be fair though airfrog, (i presume) you exclusively wear levis / LVC anyway, so this will have absolutely no detrimental effect on you anyway.

many of us have written silly / overly emotional responses in this thread because we like the way japanese repro brands are at the moment, and regularly purchase them, and are worried they will change for the worse.

It's OK to legally analyse the situation and say 'Levis has the right...', but really there are many things large corps have 'the legal right' to do, which does not actually make them in the consumer's ultimate interest.

[Miles]

My point is if a large corporation can't protect things like trademarks then how are we little guys going to be able to protect a trademark or a copyright in a society that makes villians out of everyone that won't give them what they want when they want it no matter what law it breaks or who it hurts.

Not to get this whole conversation ramped up again, but there is a lot of leeway in the US legal system when it comes to trademarks. Simply, brands are given room to create ironic interpretations of another brand's trademarks, as long as the intent is not to pass themselves off as another brand (e.g., confuse consumers). Nobody will know how this would've played out in a court of law. Along with most lawyers I've spoken to, I tend to believe that the Japanese companies would have prevailed.

But to definitively say that Levi's was completely right here, which it appears you have, would be, I think, misleading.

[donkey kong thong]

lets monopolize the denim market so that people who make complete fakes of levis will be able to come out an make some quick change...lame.

[airfrogusmc]

to be fair though airfrog, (i presume) you exclusively wear levis / LVC anyway, so this will have absolutely no detrimental effect on you anyway.

many of us have written silly / overly emotional responses in this thread because we like the way japanese repro brands are at the moment, and regularly purchase them, and are worried they will change for the worse.

It's OK to legally analyse the situation and say 'Levis has the right...', but really there are many things large corps have 'the legal right' to do, which does not actually make them in the consumer's ultimate interest.

I'm not exactly in love with Levis right now for allot of reason but if it were them infringing on another companies rights I would feel the same way. Its about protecting what you've created and gone thru the legal process to protect. If a large company can't protect their image how can a little guy. And the thing that I find the most disturbing is no one seem to think its wrong. In fact they're blaiming Levis for taking action. I have booklets by Levis that came with LVCs and it clearly states that the pocket arcuate and the red tag on the right back pocket are trademarked. Its very clear to me if I were a company I would create a jean that didn't use those elements and if I did I would expect some kind of action. Just like someone calling a buger a bigmac that wasn't McDonnalds or put soda in a bottle shapped like cokes trademarked bottle.

[Dick Danger]

There doesn't seem to be an "s" in Hitler. There is a "k" in kitler though.

[ayn]

^ lol!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[nappyhead jenkins]

I'm only in this post to read kiya's responses i wish i could filter out everyone else

except the kato jeans guy he's cool I can tell he's done with you guys though

[Dick Danger]

I'm only in this post to read kiya's responses i wish i could filter out everyone else

except the kato jeans guy he's cool I can tell he's done with you guys though

too funny....

[thelion1856]

So nappyhead, i looked in your profile and on post 56 of sf you say you work for levis as an attorny.

lol just fuckin wit ya.

[mikesduc]

Do you guys seriously think Levi's needs to look at Superfuture to see what BIG is doing? Get a grip. If you want something call and see if you can get it. Nobody here busted BIG.

For the record,I am a business owner and am well versed in many aspects of branding and marketing. I believe that Levi's doesn't have a leg to stand on legally and if these Japanese companies had the resources to fight this they would win. But what matters is that levi's can try to win. That's capitalism at work.

That said, get over giving guys shit for referencing BIG. THEY did not hurt BIG in any way. Gordon and Yuji are big boys and they can take care of themselves. End of rant.

[oOmegaOo]

Laundry just made a new t-shirt: is there a hidden message?

[Paul T]

For the record,I am a business owner and am well versed in many aspects of branding and marketing. I believe that Levi's doesn't have a leg to stand on legally and if these Japanese companies had the resources to fight this they would win. But what matters is that levi's can try to win. That's capitalism at work.

That is totally inaccurate. The arcuate, two horse patch and red tag have all been registered trademarks in the US since 1936. There's no getting around it. I'm slightly surprised Samurai et al got away with their arcuate for so long (the red tag isn't trademarked in Japan). But the moment they started being imported in large numbers into the US, complete with the tag, it was inevitable that there would be a lawsuit, and Levi's would have no problem winning, as they have against many US and European makers in the past.

AM I sad that I can't buy a pair of Samurais without a red tag? Yes. Am I sad that Levi's don't produce LVC in their own US factories any more? Yes. But if Levi's hadn't been defending their patents and trademarks since 1873, they wouldn't exist today. That's their prerogative - they invented those elements, and there's no reason they should treat anyone copying them as an 'homage'. In fact, other US companies have gone a lot further and sued other companies for having a generic resemblance to their product. levi's seem to have confined their argument to specifics.

I'm reluctant to say this, because I can't give you the complete story, but my experience is actually that Levi's are open minded about their competitors - they tend to take the attitude that anything that promotes denim, promotes Levi's. I've talked to their designers and they've laughed about the way that Michiko Koshino, True Religion, Miss Sixty and Freddie Smith totally ripped off the oversized details on the Red range.

Ultimately, if Levi's let others use their trademarks, they will lose them. And if they lose their trademarks, that's the end of them.

[tweeds]

Paul, something i've always wondered - are the True Religion twisted inseam based in any way (conceptually, perhaps) on the classic levi's leg twist?

[Paul T]

Paul, something i've always wondered - are the True Religion twisted inseam based in any way (conceptually, perhaps) on the classic levi's leg twist?

I suspect it was lifted from the Levi's Engineered (and Red) twisted seam range.

[tweeds]

^ i see...

fair points made in that post, btw.

all in all i think the industry isn't as fragile as we make it out to be, and Neil's worries about cashflow-related issues don't seem to be turning out into real problems (yet, or at least not ones that we are seeing) - new stock is moving out to the US, things are being relooked at and redesigned - perhaps it is time to let this issue rest.

[blake]

I was told that the joey style (the main true religion style) was based on a levis "red" sample that was taken.

[Kaisha]

perhaps it is time to let this issue rest.

I was waiting for that. Someone here said it is just another chapter in the history of denim, and I agree. And as disturbing as it seems now, we will all cope.

[ishtob]

i think the main thing that gets companies into trouble with copyrights is when consumers with minimal knowledge (aka what the Judge knows about the products, when was the last time we met a fashionable judge that loves denim?) of the product would get the two brands mixed up.... the only problem is.. jeans to the common ppl all look the same anyways -___- which means our precious jeans are probably going to get in some big trouble

edit: actually.. i think they are already in trouble

so gald i bought the flat head and the iron hearts during the superfuture x self edge party my jeans still got he red tag and the leather patch of two motorcycles pulling apart a pair of jeans

[LeicaLad]

So, what’s the difference between a lawyer and a carp?

One’s a bottom dwelling scum sucker.., and the other is a fish.

* * * *

Levi’s lawyers are just like other corporate lawyers.

BUT, Levi’s is a great company with an outstanding reputation for how it treats their workers and their larger corporate citizenship. Levi’s was among the very, very first corporations to have a workplace policy on HIV/AIDS, and was one of the founders of the US Business Alliance on AIDS.

I worked with several Levi representatives during the period we established Thailand’s Business Coalition on HIV/AIDS. They sent some of their experienced people to help advocate with the multinationals that had zero interest in worker rights, workplace health programs or the rights of HIV+ workers.

I can be just as cranky as anyone regarding the crap quality products they are churning out, but, as a company, they are among the very best.

Just a tidbit of information for perspective purposes.