Levi's takes on Japanese Denim Resellers and Manufacturers

[ayn]

BiG just shipped my Oni Blues!!

[thelion1856]

yeah BIG also just shipped my oni blue's and my samurai 3000VX!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! CHEA!

[ayn]

and I am gonna fucking get a pair of "illegal" jeans shipped to me next week just to test out customs... LOL...

[joey_formal]

Just a thought, all of these companies while using imagery, and designs very much influenced by Levi's trademarks does not constitude trademark infringment. These brands do not market their product as Levi's and that is very important to remember. All the elements used in the design of these jeans has an arcuate that is different then the standard Levi's arcuate, something that is not clearly described to begin with. Think about the current batch of Levi's lines and arcuates, LVC arcuates are much more shallow and offset, Capital E is skinnier, deeper as well as uneven single needle stitching, Levi's red is thinner, deep and set lower double needle stitched, Levi's Red Tab is the fat double needle, symetrical arcuate. Now you tell me how this is able to be trademarked, if it is then Levi's should look to Diesel which is still to this day using similar arcuates on their jeans and takes up a much larger market share. Think about it Nike's swoosh does not change. These japanese repro brands are not trying to trick people into buying a fake Levi's product, just as BAPE is not trying to trick consumers into buying fake Nike AF1s even though the body and construction style is still the same. If anything EVISu was the brand most capitalizing on the Levi's name and branding and should have had the harshest suit. oh well just rambling thoughts.

[tweeds]

just as an aside, i emailed shinichi-san from skull last night...according to him they aren't affected, so no worries there.

[HEWSINATOR]

yes they have alerted every border in the world. fuck looking for agricultural products, drugs, taxable goods, and other things at customs. the only thing that matters is jeans with tabs and arcuates. all custom patrol people are instructed to cut up denim on sight.

come on guys. it's really not that deep....

Exactly what I was thinking as I read people freaking out. You will still be able to get from Japan, this is my thought.

[Liberation1945]

so what if u travel out of your country and whatever country you are comming in to or leaving checks through your luggage and sees you with some samurai's or d'artisans?

will customs confinscate your jeans from you? after all they did say there is to be no shipping of these denim or selling. how do they know its your jeans? especially if you have minimal wear in them. That would suck.

Lets say you take your own denim oversea's for a europe or japan trip and come back to the US and customs says sorry you cant bring these "fake" levis back in the states even though they are yours and you had them before all this shit. what will you do? what do u say to the customs dude?

you better hope your jeans have faded with a damn decent amount of honeycombs and whiskers.

[thelion1856]

GEORGE BUSH WANTS YOUR JAPANESE DENIM!!!!!!

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/story?id=2770381&page=1&CMP=OTC-RSSFeeds0312

Bush: Government Can Open Your Mail

Jan. 4, 2007 — President Bush says he and other government officials have the power to snoop through your mail without a judge's warrant.

Bush made the claim last month in a signing statement attached to a postal reform bill. Bush wrote that the bill "provides for opening of an item of a class of mail otherwise sealed against inspection."

"I wants me all your pairs of that there jap-a-knees denim right thur."

[HEWSINATOR]

Just a thought, all of these companies while using imagery, and designs very much influenced by Levi's trademarks does not constitude trademark infringment. These brands do not market their product as Levi's and that is very important to remember. All the elements used in the design of these jeans has an arcuate that is different then the standard Levi's arcuate, something that is not clearly described to begin with. Think about the current batch of Levi's lines and arcuates, LVC arcuates are much more shallow and offset, Capital E is skinnier, deeper as well as uneven single needle stitching, Levi's red is thinner, deep and set lower double needle stitched, Levi's Red Tab is the fat double needle, symetrical arcuate. Now you tell me how this is able to be trademarked, if it is then Levi's should look to Diesel which is still to this day using similar arcuates on their jeans and takes up a much larger market share. Think about it Nike's swoosh does not change. These japanese repro brands are not trying to trick people into buying a fake Levi's product, just as BAPE is not trying to trick consumers into buying fake Nike AF1s even though the body and construction style is still the same. If anything EVISu was the brand most capitalizing on the Levi's name and branding and should have had the harshest suit. oh well just rambling thoughts.

Couple things here: one, I believe that Levis did go after Diesel in the past, and the changes are acceptable. Further, Evis, was taken on and now we have Evis-U.

But the point about confusion in the mind of the consumer is what I wonder about and with MINIMAL legal understanding is crux. BUT, I am sure all parties involved have a better grasp of law than this whole board, even though I am doing law school apps as I type this .

[diewhitegirls]

GEORGE BUSH WANTS YOUR JAPANESE DENIM!!!!!!

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/story?id=2770381&page=1&CMP=OTC-RSSFeeds0312

Bush: Government Can Open Your Mail

Jan. 4, 2007 — President Bush says he and other government officials have the power to snoop through your mail without a judge's warrant.

Bush made the claim last month in a signing statement attached to a postal reform bill. Bush wrote that the bill "provides for opening of an item of a class of mail otherwise sealed against inspection."

"I wants me all your pairs of that there jap-a-knees denim right thur."

It's because the Japanese hate our freedoms.

[LeicaLad]

You tell him to suck it.

And here is someone who has traveled very little!

Never, but never, piss off a customs inspector. While you stand in front of them, they have the complete authority to make your life hell, not to mention insuring every future trip you take also includes complete take-you-apart-at-the-seams and body cavity searches. Do not kid yourself. Often, they are bored and petty-minded. A bit of lip simply makes their day.

They actually DO have the authority to confiscate any offending items. Pirate DVDs, cheap Rolex, fake designer goods, denim considered to be Levi "knock-offs" (even if we know they are better than the originals). Don't be cute.

Be nice. Be polite. Bury your denim deep and fold it so the offending details don't show. Don't be wearing it for the flight, fool. Cross your fingers.

Don't be stupid. Don't be rude. You might get by okay.

[LetsGetSerious]

wow, Im just glad I bought my SO500XX when I did!

Upside-down A for life!

[drapygo]

What.......... so if you're wearing bootleg Levi's, they going to tell you to take them off?

[mrip]

And here is someone who has traveled very little!

Never, but never, piss off a customs inspector. While you stand in front of them, they have the complete authority to make your life hell, not to mention insuring every future trip you take also includes complete take-you-apart-at-the-seams and body cavity searches. Do not kid yourself. Often, they are bored and petty-minded. A bit of lip simply makes their day.

They actually DO have the authority to confiscate any offending items. Pirate DVDs, cheap Rolex, fake designer goods, denim considered to be Levi "knock-offs" (even if we know they are better than the originals). Don't be cute.

Be nice. Be polite. Bury your denim deep and fold it so the offending details don't show. Don't be wearing it for the flight, fool. Cross your fingers.

Don't be stupid. Don't be rude. You might get by okay.

I was joking, but do you REALLY think airport customs will notice your jeans at all? I would lie and say these are from the Japanese division of levis, and point out the japanese written on the tags. Or that they are a collaboration with a japanese brand, and levis allowed them to use the arcuate and patch. I think they are more on the look out for pirated dvds and knock off watches. Who even counterfeits jeans anymore, besides the thai fakes and the fake ebay nbhd, prps, lvc and etc sellers, is there even a big market outside of the premium denim scene that would even buy fake jeans? I think they would just get some no brand jeans. Now that levis are everywhere, I doubt they are as hyped as they were in the past. I mean if you can get levis for 30 in a legit store, I doubt anyone is going to make fakes for the common consumer.

[mrip]

Also, taken from the BIG webiste.

Samurai no koto (Samurai's words)

The Way is in training.

Do not think dishonestly.

Become aquainted with every art.

Know the Ways of all professions.

Distinguish between gain and loss in worldly matters.

Develop intuitive judgement and understanding for everything.

Perceive those things which cannot be seen.

Pay attention even to trifles.

Do nothing which is of no use.

Samurai's response to this whole debacle?

[kiya]

just finished my meeting with Flat Head via phone...

Flat Head jeans will no longer have the traditional Flat Head arcuates or a tab of any kind.

Self Edge will receive a shipment of their 5100 jeans mid next week with NO back pocket stitching. The shipment will also contain four different shirts, and also some Type 3 jackets. Any shipment after the 5100 jeans will sport the new and improved stitching that they've taken from their Frontier line.

Please, when viewing these new stitchings from all these denim manufacturers, keep an open mind. It's difficult for them to move on sometimes, and they need support in these times.

[Blackplatano]

Do you think the new back pockets are good?

[Superstar]

kiya - sounds great.. was looking at gettin some Flat Heads from your shop soon...

when and where will there be visuals of the new back-pocket stitchings ? if there will be any previews before the jeans hit the shop...

[kiya]

we're still working with Iron Heart on their stitching and tag, Imperial on their tag, and Flat Head on their stitching..

in the meanwhile, we can't release any photos of mock ups. but the final stitchings and tags will be decided on by Monday for all three of the above mentioned companies.

I am in a daze right now, especially after the thought that i'm literally helping all these companies redesign their accents for their entire lines and that we're going back and forth with ideas and drawings and concepts. in the end though, it's their vision that needs to come through, and i'm positive it will.

these are people that live and breath denim, i can only wish to one day be nearly as immersed in the world of denim as they are.

but for now, being sued by Levi's is enough for me.

[LeicaLad]

Wow, Kiya. Sounds pretty immersed to me.

Keep notes, talk to your video cam. Too much is probably a daze now, and you may have book, script material swirling around you.

We're all eager to hear about the new steps being taken. I'm partial to what Iron Heart is doing. Plus, if not tooo big a digression, what is the FH 5100 cut? Tight, straight? I think we can still legally refer to cut similarities, eh?

Anyway, you have all our support. Hoping you won't be hit with dead stock problems on your cash flow. Cheers.

[mrip]

If anything, these contraband jeans are going to be worth mad cash in a few years.

[LeicaLad]

I was joking, but do you REALLY think airport customs will notice your jeans at all? I would lie and say these are from the Japanese division of levis, and point out the japanese written on the tags. Or that they are a collaboration with a japanese brand, and levis allowed them to use the arcuate and patch. I think they are more on the look out for pirated dvds and knock off watches. Who even counterfeits jeans anymore, besides the thai fakes and the fake ebay nbhd, prps, lvc and etc sellers, is there even a big market outside of the premium denim scene that would even buy fake jeans? I think they would just get some no brand jeans. Now that levis are everywhere, I doubt they are as hyped as they were in the past. I mean if you can get levis for 30 in a legit store, I doubt anyone is going to make fakes for the common consumer.

I was pretty sure you were just joking, BUT my response was about being very, very careful about when and where you tell the joke!

There’s a whole industry related to tracking fake, counterfeit & knockoff goods. If, as Sidneylo says, Levi’s are the new Nazis, then these guys are the new Nazi SS. (Stretching the metaphor.) They are without humor. Hope you don’t meet them.

Who makes Levi knockoffs? Ever been to Bangkok? The local made versions are US$6 – 10, while the “good†knockoffs (meaning almost respectable denim) start around US$20+. Many are absolute knockoffs of every detail and label, some are locally inspired brands that borrow trademark details to various degrees. They are absolutely everywhere in every market. The motorcycle taxis boys wear knockoff raw selvage. Really. And, to add injury to insult, many of the Thai knockoffs are better than Levi’s current line, eh?

As for crossing borders, most customs officers don’t care about the single items carried by the tourists returning home. That said, they can take the LV purse from you mother’s arm and return her possession in a plastic sack, and, yes, they can allow you to select an alternate pair of pants from your luggage and confiscate what you are wearing IF they feel like it. This is the law, as the product in question is in direct violation of the law. Much depends on their mood and your luck in crossing them. They are trained to see their work as “protecting Americaâ€, and that includes all US trademarks, regardless of our POV.

Thus, my strong injunctions to be polite and not to wave red flags in front of sleeping (pit)bulls.

But the point is that these are the exact same things as fake watches and pirate DVDs to a customs officer. And, if they were no big thing, then we wouldn’t have this Levi action, would we? Even the relatively small premium denim market is big $$. Probably even bigger than the fake watch industry. (People who buy the fake watches are totally unlikely to be real customers for $10k+ watches, are they?) And Levi’s see them as a threat, regardless of the quality issues or the feelings of we denim heads who love the homage editions.

So, I am very happy with my SC 47’s that were among the last with tag and arcuates. But when I fly back to the US on my next trip, I’ll wear the SC 45 Lee repros, instead. Or, better yet, I may just wear the Rag & Bone and say “ why, these are made in the USA, sir.â€

Bottom line: hopefully a tempest in a teapot, and, like fake watches and pirate DVDs, your normal trip through customs will be past a bored officer unconcerned with the standard tourist souvenir items. Like remembering to floss, remember to smile at the nice officer.

[tweeds]

it's funny, but i was just considering ordering jeans from rakuten for collecting's sake. a chance to pick up a bit of history that's actually occurring in my lifetime, i suppose?

anyone else stocking up?

[st199ml]

But of course. Canes purchased yesterday. Trying to get an SDA order through too.

Have ebay pulled any repro auctions since the court ruling?

[tweeds]

for what it's worth, rakuten is still open. i might go and buy a pair of SD-103s to keep.

i don't actually imagine all the rakuten merchants are going to take down their items for a long time yet...

[mrip]

I think everyone is stocking up, the real question is, are they stocking for future wear, keeping the deadstock for collection value, or holding on to the to resell in a few years. Im stocking up so I can wear them out in the next few years.

[sneakeraddict]

I'm gonna get a pair of Samurias from Rakuten.

Always intended to buy a pair "one day", but Levis has only pushed that day forward.

One thing, I am always confused about Samurais cuts as they dont correlate to the "normal " 47, 55 etc, and I find it difficult to get a true picture just by looking at Rise measurements etc.

i will ask in the samurai thread so as not to divert this one anyway.

Levis, you really make me giggle.

Oh well, all good things must come to an end, eh?

P.S. I hope the Japanese brands keep it SIMPLE, or even plain, I dont want dragons, stars and stripes etc (frankly I thought those new Union Star pockets were truly awful)

[Geowu]

how safe is it to buy from Japan now?

[horriblyjollyjinx]

how safe is it to buy from Japan now?

I'm quite sure there is no danger involved, at least for people outside of the US.

I think the Japanese versions will not change either.

[justiz2]

I pmed 2000db earlier today to get a pair of SC40501A through Hinoya to keep for now and wear later. Have yet to hear back from him though. Hopefully there wouldn't be any problem with him sending the jeans overseas now...