Levi's takes on Japanese Denim Resellers and Manufacturers

[02///M3]

This sucks... January 19th is my birthday, and it will forever be synonymous with the day that Levi's fucked over the denim world. Great.

[the black arm]

i believe in kiya's post to start the thread it says specifically that this is not a cease and desist suit, but ALREADY a court order...

you could be right, but as i read it, the court order is related to a pending suit, not a court decision. many times courts will enjoin the sale of certain products that are in dispute until a decision is reached.

[swisloc]

I think they actually didn't try to sell outside of Japan.

it's our fault (actually, Levis fault)

good point.

also: i'm so confused by everyone running to get the last pair of jeans with arcuates when:

A)most people who post here say they are "all about the quality"

B)the arcuates themselves are often removed/complained about by people posting here

C)we continue to laud brands like 45RPM or even 5EP which produce denim as great or better than these brands WHILE AT THE SAME TIME developing and maintaining there own identity as something distinctly different than Levi's.

It CLEARLY can be done.

[Charlie Delta]

This thread is a Beast!

Long long read, I think everything has been said already and some of the things said really make sense.

Even if I think it's a damn shame that this happens there is no reason for Levis not to do this, it is their right to protect what is theirs (or what they claimed to be theirs years and years ago, for as far as I know it still isn't clear if Levi Strauss & Co was the first to use a backpocket arcuate) and they have the law on their side. However, what makes it feel wrong for me is the timing.

If, like Neil says this has serious consequences for some of these smaller japanese denim companies, because it would mean that they can basicly throw away a complete seasons production, that might very well be a deathblow for some of these companies.

In that case it is a lot more than Levis just making a fuss about their trademarks, it is simply them killing off competition! "Other people are making better jeans, let's go get 'm for it!" Ofcourse it doesn't help if those "other people" are basing their whole brand identity on these Levis trademarks. I believe it would have been a different case if any of these brands would have made a one-off piece that would have been so heavily inspired by Levis. Then it would have been more like a homage. But it's not, these brands are in fact making these jeans to be sold.

I think all of us on here can easily detect the irony in a leather patch with two pigs pulling apart a pair of jeans on it, but alot of people can't. And in the same way the average joe, won't see the difference between Levis or any of the "repro" brands, they'll just be pair of Levis jeans he hasn't seen before. Or say some thing like: "since when did levis change their backpocket design?" as someone posted before.

Now the average joe probably won't buy $200+ jeans, put still Levis doesn't want any possible confusion about their products and trademarks.

For us to argue wether the arcuates actually look too much alike isn't the point, if it looks too much alike for most people then that's it!

I think that at this moment it is most important for the parties involved to make it through this in one piece, and I'm sure that after that they'll surprise us again with well made and nicely detailed quality products.

A good example of that these brands don't need the arcuates etc. is Warehouse their Duckdigger line, they manage to make products that in a way look like repro's but are for as far as I know completely designed by them, there's no reason that the other companies wouldn't be able to do this. If they are still able to after this.

We know that this is not about the cuts or the fabrics used but only about some details so in the end the jeans will be the same, just with different details and they won't have this "Reproduction of Vintage Levis" feeling to them, but they'll be "Mighty fine Overalls!" all the same!

[swisloc]

Funny how all the Levi's backers say this is a great oppurtunity for Japanese denim companies to evolve forward and put out a better product. Yet I don't hear them telling Levi's to do the same...no, instead issue this court order so they can continue to put out mediocre product for fat asses of America rather than step up and say hey, we should be putting up quality too. So many missteps for this once great company...i look forward to seeing the collapse.

as one of the "levis backers" (which i am not, i'm just saying they too have rights) i would say it is up to them to both stop the co-opting of their trademarks AS WELL AS develop products that compete with the quality standard offered by repro brands. If they don't do the latter they are still blowing it just as bad as they were before.

and i'm not saying it is an opportunity for repro companies to produce a BETTER product, only a more distinct identity. anyone in marketing will tell you this is essential to brand longevity in the first place, and is, in fact, part of the reason levi's is as strong as it is now.

[Levis511]

the reason that people are confused is because it isn't a blatant red tab/horses/arctuates infringement, each company changed them slightly for their brand. The question is how far their copyright extends, for example, the SDA patch with the pigs i don't think should qualify. Also, the patches don't say levis on them, they say the japanese manufacturers name, so perhaps the companies could just change the color of the tab to comply.

I think it has gotten past the point of color of the tab. After all, Levi's does produce their Silver Tab line and formerly their Orange tab line...I don't think its the color of the tab that is trademarked, just the tab in general...

[ayn]

about the 2000dB service, I talked to him over IM yesterday afternoon and at least at that point he had no intention of halting his shipments. in fact I am working out an order right now, of both "legal" and "illegal" jeans... I wanna try labeling "shit" on one of them to see how it goes...

I plan to get them shipped separately, with the "legal" (and most expensive) pair shipped first, and another pair every other day or so... Friend of mine in HK has a big eBay business selling remote controlled helicopters, and that's how he does it, he ships the helicopters out in parts and do them over a couple of days...

[xcoldricex]

hahahaha helicopters.

anyway. i want SDA to release a piggy shirt with the piggies doin' something nasty to a levi's symbol. i will definitely buy.

[Charlie Delta]

^You won't believe what Begs just posted in the "did we kill japanese denim" thread:

[denimdestroyedmylife]

^ that's clearly infringement on the batwing and sda pigs

down with begs!

[ayn]

LOL..... chinatown style...

[Astérix]

I wonder if Skull will be affected by this as they have a red tab. I'm surprised Sinichi hasn't commented on the issue yet!

[78]

All your base are belong to LEVIS

fuckin classic.

[poly800rock]

+1000 there DDML

[Tarmac]

I'm surprised Sinichi hasn't commented on the issue yet!

I'm sure he has much more on his plate than Sufu right now, as courteous as he is.

[poly800rock]

he doesn't have to worry does he? or do they have red tabs?

[Guest jeffvyain]

there are SO many brands with red tabs, blue tabs, black tabs, whatever....

i feel like if the tab thing went to court, levi's would lose. but it won't make it that far, and most likely no real decision will be made. so i assume people will just continue to push the envelope, but maybe not the japanese companies anymore

[airfrogusmc]

airfrog I agree with your general sentiment, but lets not assume that just because levi's is suing a company, that company is actually infringing a trademark, those issues are for a court to decide, and most likely won't have to because it will be cheaper for the little guys to change then fight. To the average person a lot of japanese denim companies are using accents that are very similiar to levi's, however similarity doesn't mean they are infringing. trademark/patent/copyright laws are less than specifc and leave room for inovation, new uses, designs etc. No one disputes Levi's has the right or reason to sue, however there is no court decision that actually says they are infringing. I'd love to see one of these cases get decided, but the truth is it won't because levi's has way more money to outlast the smaller japanese firms in court, so the opportunity exists that a firm that wasn't technically infringing will have to eat a season's worth of goods.

Maybe someone at one of these small companies should have been more careful to start with. I don't know any specific details of this but these companies will be OK and you'll be able to buy their products just not with anything that looks like Levis on them. If it were my trade mark I'd be going after whoever to as most of you would be.

[stuntastic]

the reason that people are confused is because it isn't a blatant red tab/horses/arctuates infringement, each company changed them slightly for their brand. The question is how far their copyright extends, for example, the SDA patch with the pigs i don't think should qualify. Also, the patches don't say levis on them, they say the japanese manufacturers name, so perhaps the companies could just change the color of the tab to comply.

Samurai did a jean with a white tab.

But I guess Levis is taking it further.

Kiya said no tab between two fabrics.

I dont get it. They got on Sugarcanes for having the RED tabs on the RIGHT inside back pocket...

Brands changed the colors and location of the tabs... Shouldnt that mean that they have complied with Levis trademark with the tabs?

Confusing and shitty.

And NO. Self Edge is NOT having any sales right now.

[Geowu]

Maybe someone at one of these small companies should have been more careful to start with. I don't know any specific details of this but these companies will be OK and you'll be able to buy their products just not with anything that looks like Levis on them. If it were my trade mark I'd be going after whoever to as most of you would be.

I hope all these companies will be indeed OK. You are right defending trademarks, you already said your work depends on it, but I think yours is a different kind of intellectual property, or whatever it's called. While books or songs are protected for some decades and then become public, the Levi's trademarks are something uncommon now-a-days, in that they registered forms of clothing, and besides, they're very old already. Furthermore, the trademarks are not all of them that strong. Additionally, they chose a particularly bad time to do it.

[pokpok]

seems like levis is pussyhurt about other brands gettin business off their classic cuts and designs...

maybe levis should stop bitchin and step up their game and dominate the denim market with better ads and higher quality denim at fraction of the price

[Panda-san]

I'd promissed myself not to buy anymore denim, but I just broke down and ordered the 19oz Samurai S510XX from BiG.

[the black arm]

Maybe someone at one of these small companies should have been more careful to start with. I don't know any specific details of this but these companies will be OK and you'll be able to buy their products just not with anything that looks like Levis on them. If it were my trade mark I'd be going after whoever to as most of you would be.

agreed, the japanese manufacturers definitely took the risk by playing so close to the fire. these are the consequences, without question.

if I were levi's I'd try to find a way to work with these companies and maximize my penetration in the high-end, artisan denim market, sell more jeans and make more money. I completely understand the business imperative in protecting ones intellectual property, but these guys aren't trying to loosen levi's lock on Target or WalMart, they're operating in a unique niche that levi's doesn't have as great a market share in.

[swisloc]

seems like levis is pussyhurt about other brands gettin business off their classic cuts and designs...

maybe levis should stop bitchin and step up their game and dominate the denim market with better ads and higher quality denim at fraction of the price

i'm pretty sure they don't care about the business the other brands are getting. I bet levi's does more business worldwide in one day than these brands do in an entire year. It's more about marketing and making an example of the seriousness with which they take there trademark property.

[chronoaug]

I have a bad feeling about the pockets. I really don't like any of the new sugarcane pocket designs.

[synthi]

agreed, the japanese manufacturers definitely took the risk by playing so close to the fire. these are the consequences, without question.

What you maybe aren't aware of is that a central part of Japanese culture engrained from the time of the Samurai is to emulate i.e. to look at something and take the next step. Example 1: the Samurai sword, based on the straight Chinese sword, given a curvature by the Samurai to aid in cutting. Example 2: the Japanese wood plane. 100% based on the Chinese wood plane, modified in having no handles, just a plain oak body and the other major difference, used on the pull stroke rather than push.

This is the Japanese way, culture if you like. The Samurai may be no more, but they once ruled the country and engrained their teachings to the masses. Ironically it may seem, the Japanese detest fakes with a passion. These jeans though are considered parodies which appeals to the quirky Japanese sense of humour.

They were simply recreating the jeans of the 40's, 50's and 60's. As someone mentioned way earlier in this thread, when this was happening in the late 70's, LVC didn't even exist then. What the Japanese boutique denim manufacturers were and continue to do is no different to all the companies that lovingly re-create A2 leather jackets with deadstock talon zippers and the the rest of the works that makes them true histrorically accurate recreations. So you see, there was no malice involved and this is probably why many of us here recognise that while Levi's are doing might be 100% within the law, it somehow just doesn't feel right.

*edit* and on top if that, it remains to be seen if the contested trademarks are all registered by Levi's in Japan.

[Superstar]

^ which designs are you talking about ?

att: Chronaug

[horriblyjollyjinx]

we like the diacock...

so when's lee and wrangler going to start suing people?

Lee and Wrangler(same owner) don't care as much as Levi's and they only have their vintage collections to have a flagship. They won't do anything.

[Astérix]

So what is going to happen to all the jeans that don't sell by today? Will they be destroyed? Or will some "bartering" occur?

[horriblyjollyjinx]

let's just start an online petition. it's a surefire plan.

loved this one.